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Cooling Shroud

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jeff(at)rmmm.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:05 pm Post subject: Cooling Shroud

HI All,

After dealing with the uneven cooling issues under the Europa cowl, and 

after looking at how all the new LSA planes are cooling the rotax, I 

decided to make a cooling shroud or baffle as rotax calls it. I know 

something like this came with some of the Kits but not mine. After 

seeing the RV-12 at KOSH I decided to call Lockwood to see what one 

would cost. We'll the rotax version was $900 + US dollars. So I got the 

clay out and started making one. It turned out quite nice. All the air 

from the right intake will be funneled up a 2 inch scat tube to feed 

the thing.

After talking with Jeff B. of Baby Blue fame he thought it would be 

nice if we could fashion a mold for anyone else wanting one. So before 

I  start the process I thought I'd test the waters on this list. Here 

is a picture of it. Jeff & I thought if we made such a mold that we 

could send it around to others wanting to lay up such a shroud. A mold 

would be a lot easier than the process I went through to make this so 

if you are interested let me know. Jeff gets first crack at it but we 

could send it on from there. All interested parties please respond back 

and we'll see what we can do. It seems to me that better and more even 

cooling will make a happier engine.

Best Regards,



Jeff R.

A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 176 hours and down for the annual, Mod 71 and 

a lot of others.

Cooling_Baffle.jpg

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rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:27 pm Post subject: Cooling Shroud

Jeff R.,



You have a taker here!  I'll be second in line after Jeff B.  There  

seems to be no problem with mine right now, but it's winter.  I can  

already see that one cylinder (#4 of course) is quite a bit hotter  

than the others.  So this is something I want to have in the back  

pocket when the time comes.



Check six,

Bob Borger

Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S

http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL

Aircraft Flying!

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208

Home:  940-497-2123

Cel:  817-992-1117

On Feb 9, 2009, at 19:01, JEFF ROBERTS wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   HI All,

 After dealing with the uneven cooling issues under the Europa cowl,  

 and after looking at how all the new LSA planes are cooling the  

 rotax, I decided to make a cooling shroud or baffle as rotax calls  

 it. I know something like this came with some of the Kits but not  

 mine. After seeing the RV-12 at KOSH I decided to call Lockwood to  

 see what one would cost. We'll the rotax version was $900 + US  

 dollars. So I got the clay out and started making one. It turned out  

 quite nice. All the air from the right intake will be funneled up a  

 2 inch scat tube to feed the thing.

 After talking with Jeff B. of Baby Blue fame he thought it would be  

 nice if we could fashion a mold for anyone else wanting one. So  

 before I  start the process I thought I'd test the waters on this  

 list. Here is a picture of it. Jeff & I thought if we made such a  

 mold that we could send it around to others wanting to lay up such a  

 shroud. A mold would be a lot easier than the process I went through  

 to make this so if you are interested let me know. Jeff gets first  

 crack at it but we could send it on from there. All interested  

 parties please respond back and we'll see what we can do. It seems  

 to me that better and more even cooling will make a happier engine.

 Best Regards,



 Jeff R.

 A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 176 hours and down for the annual, Mod 71  

 and a lot of others.

 <Cooling Baffle.jpg>

m.grass(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:41 pm Post subject: Cooling Shroud

Jeff,

  

 Looks nice. Please put me on the list.

  

 Michael Grass    

 A266 Trigear 

 Detroit

 [quote]   ---

Paul Boulet

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 57
Location: Malibu, California

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:14 pm Post subject: Cooling Shroud

Simply beautiful.  I'd like to have one too

 Paul Boulet, N914PB  Rotax 914 tri gear



--- On Mon, 2/9/09, JEFF ROBERTS <jeff(at)rmmm.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff(at)rmmm.net>

Subject: Cooling Shroud

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 5:01 PM



 	  Quote: 	
		  HI All,

After dealing with the uneven cooling issues under the Europa cowl, and after

looking at how all the new LSA planes are cooling the rotax, I decided to make a

cooling shroud or baffle as rotax calls it. I know something like this came with

some of the Kits but not mine. After seeing the RV-12 at KOSH I decided to call

Lockwood to see what one would cost. We'll the rotax version was $900 + US

dollars. So I got the clay out and started making one. It turned out quite nice.

All the air from the right intake will be funneled up a 2 inch scat tube to feed

the thing.

After talking with Jeff B. of Baby Blue fame he thought it would be nice if we

could fashion a mold for anyone else wanting one. So before I  start the process

I thought I'd test the waters on this list. Here is a picture of it. Jeff

& I thought if we made such a mold that we could send it around to others

wanting to lay up such a shroud. A mold would be a lot easier than the process I

went through to make this so if you are interested let me know. Jeff gets first

crack at it but we could send it on from there. All interested parties please

respond back and we'll see what we can do. It seems to me that better and

more even cooling will make a happier engine.

Best Regards,



Jeff R.

A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 176 hours and down for the annual, Mod 71 and a lot

of others.

	
	
 [quote][b]

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:19 pm Post subject: Cooling Shroud

Hi Jeff,  

   

I will probably be interested in it, when I get there, in the build.  

   

Regards,  

Greg   

   

HI All,

 …… A mold would be a lot easier than the process I went through to make this so if you are interested let me know. Jeff gets first crack at it but we could send it on from there. All interested parties please respond back and we'll see what we can do. It seems to me that better and more even cooling will make a happier engine. 

 Best Regards,

 

 <?fontfamily><?param Helvetica>Jeff R.

 A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 176 hours and down for the annual, Mod 71 and a lot of others.

 

 

 

   <?/fontfamily>

       [quote][b]

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:22 am Post subject: Cooling Shroud

Hi JeffGood lick on your cooling air baffle.One note, my factory cooling air baffle I bought for my 914 is made out of polyester resin. Polyester is better for high temperatures compared to Aeropoxy. Don't know if TG of Aeropoxy is high enough if thats what you used??Aeropoxy has a sister company with a laminating resin good for some pretty high temperatures. It will semi cure at room temperature, then you need to ramp up temps in an oven to get max TG. A home oven will work well.Ron P.   [quote][b]

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:39 am Post subject: Cooling Shroud

Hi JeffForgot to mention on my first post, the cooling air baffle I got looks pretty new, perhaps only the factory run time. It has some brown/burnt  areas developing.Ron Parigoris   [quote][b]

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:04 am Post subject: Re: Cooling Shroud

The Tg for Aeropoxy is 194-196F depending on which hardener is used.

see:http://pages.sbcglobal.net/ccanedy/aeropoxy_main.html

The only Tg for polyester resins I could find on the web were in the 

range of 53C or about 112F



Post cure baking pushes the layup towards the final Tg.



Fortunately an engine shroud is small enough to actually bake with reasonable equipment, unlike a wing.

_________________
Ira N224XS

bdanbish(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:19 am Post subject: Cooling Shroud

Hi, 



I'd be interested as well, for the 914. 



Thanks,



Dan

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

watervet(at)mweb.co.za
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:06 am Post subject: Cooling Shroud

You can count me in to  

Regards  

Mike Toft  

ZU CTG Tri Gear 914 XS  

     

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Boulet

 Sent: 10 February 2009 07:12 AM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Cooling Shroud  

  

              

Simply beautiful.  I'd like to have one too   

      

Paul Boulet, N914PB  Rotax 914 tri gear

   

   --- On Mon, 2/9/09, JEFF ROBERTS <jeff(at)rmmm.net> wrote:   

    	  Quote: 	
		     

From: JEFF ROBERTS   <jeff(at)rmmm.net>

   Subject: Cooling Shroud

   To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

   Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 5:01 PM    	  Quote: 	
		  HI All,After dealing with the uneven cooling issues under the Europa cowl, and afterlooking at how all the new LSA planes are cooling the rotax, I decided to make acooling shroud or baffle as rotax calls it. I know something like this came withsome of the Kits but not mine. After seeing the RV-12 at KOSH I decided to callLockwood to see what one would cost. We'll the rotax version was $900 + USdollars. So I got the clay out and started making one. It turned out quite nice.All the air from the right intake will be funneled up a 2 inch scat tube to feedthe thing.After talking with Jeff B. of Baby Blue fame he thought it would be nice if weAfter dealing with the uneven cooling issues under the Europa cowl, and after 	
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		  After dealing with the uneven cooling issues under the Europa cowl, and after 	
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		  After dealing with the uneven cooling issues under the Europa cowl, and after 	
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		  After dealing with the uneven cooling issues under the Europa cowl, and after 	
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		  After dealing with the uneven cooling issues under the Europa cowl, and after 	
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		  looking at how all the new LSA planes are cooling the rotax, I decided to make a 	
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		  cooling shroud or baffle as rotax calls it. I know something like this came with 	
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		  cooling shroud or baffle as rotax calls it. I know something like this came with 	
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		  cooling shroud or baffle as rotax calls it. I know something like this came with 	
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		  cooling shroud or baffle as rotax calls it. I know something like this came with 	
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		  cooling shroud or baffle as rotax calls it. I know something like this came with 	
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		  cooling shroud or baffle as rotax calls it. I know something like this came with 	
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		  cooling shroud or baffle as rotax calls it. I know something like this came with 	
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		  cooling shroud or baffle as rotax calls it. I know something like this came with 	
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		  cooling shroud or baffle as rotax calls it. I know something like this came with 	
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		  cooling shroud or baffle as rotax calls it. I know something like this came with 	
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		  some of the Kits but not mine. After seeing the RV-12 at KOSH I decided to call 	
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       [quote][b]

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:39 am Post subject: Cooling Shroud

Hi Ira"> The only Tg for polyester resins I could find on the web were in the > range of 53C or about 112F"I made my comment based on what Nev told me. He said that one reason the Europa cowl is made out of polyester is the higher TG. My Rotax cooling air baffle sure does smell like polyester.Anyway, PTM+W sells an amber laminating system:[url=http://www.ptm-w.com/index.asp?pgid ]http://www.ptm-w.com/index.asp?pgid [/url]TG of PT2846 is 308F to 370F depending on hardener. I spoke at length to engineer about that product, and the biggest problem is the minimum buy (especially the hardener). I have the guys name that will sell me reasonable amounts, but still would be more than my needs for my custom electric fan shrouding before radiators.There is a ramp up procedure I have, something like let it cure at room or slightly higher temp for half a day, then bake for 2 hours at ??,  then 1 hour at ??, etc. etc. My shroud will fit in my oven so that is my plan. Ron P.>   [quote][b]

jeff(at)rmmm.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:16 am Post subject: Cooling Shroud

We'll guys. It looks like one or two are interested in this shroud so I 

bought some plaster of paris and I'm going to attempt to make a mold of 

some sort. I may have to make a negative mold out of the glass and 

resin instead but we'll see.

On the issue of the mold melting I would suggest that if cooled 

properly the slight amount of this that touches the fins shouldn't be a 

problem. What I have done is where the shroud goes between the outer 

outside and second cooling fin i used a lay-up of RTV and bid. You can 

buy at any auto parts store the red RTV stuff thats supposed to be good 

up to 650F. lay a 1" X 10 strip of bid on plastic. Start working the 

RTV into the bid just as you would a regular lay-up. I went 4 layers 

thick then on the last one I didn't work any RTV on the outside of it 

just worked it into the previous layer's excess. This will allow you to 

glue the one side of this onto the side of the shroud. After the lay up 

add another piece of polyurethane just like when you made tapes of bid 

in the build. You can then let it cure about a half hour trim it to 

shape and glue it with epoxy to the side of the shroud. This will stay 

slightly flexible and be the part that touches the motor most. I could 

be all wet here but a good friend of mine made all his own baffling on 

his EZ using this stuff and it's still working 800+ hours. Here is a 

picture of the shroud off the engine so you can see what I mean.

I'll keep yas'all posted as to my progress on the mold. Hey maybe I 

should just make a bunch of these and sell em;) After all I am a 

capitalist! Let the bidding start!

Regards,



Jeff R.

A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 176 hours and climbing slowly.





On Feb 10, 2009, at 8:04 AM, rampil wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The Tg for Aeropoxy is 194-196F depending on which hardener is used.

 see:http://pages.sbcglobal.net/ccanedy/aeropoxy_main.html

 The only Tg for polyester resins I could find on the web were in the

 range of 53C or about 112F



 Post cure baking pushes the layup towards the final Tg.



 Fortunately an engine shroud is small enough to actually bake with 

 reasonable equipment, unlike a wing.



 --------

 Ira N224XS





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rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Cooling Shroud

Hi Ron,



The other Aeropoxy mix described as amber doesn't help too much except that many epoxy hardeners are brownish vs polyester agents

are purplish (not definitive to my knowledge).



I had just done a quick google and didn't find anything other than what I previously mentioned. I do have several composite structural chemistry

texts if someone really needs something looked up.

_________________
Ira N224XS

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:11 pm Post subject: Cooling Shroud

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Jeff,

 Good going.  

  

 Although mine covers the whole intake manifold and is set up for the  914.  Your copy of the Rotax part is tidy and a lot cheaper than that  overpriced vinyl ester piece Rotax sells.

  

 You may find that if you made yours from Aeropoxy that the edges may get a  little brown around the head, but not too bad.  Vinyl ester can take a  little more temperature, but I figure if the lunch boxes on top of the cylinders  of a Jabiru at 300F hold up made from Aeropoxy, it will work on the  rotax.

  

 You have a tri gear, and I can't believe with that big hole behind your  engine frame, that you need this, but let me know how it's working.

  

 Bud

 Custom Flight Creations.

 [quote]   ---

Paul Boulet

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 57
Location: Malibu, California

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:36 pm Post subject: Cooling Shroud

Hi Bud;

 I also have a 914 and with the hot Arizona temps need all the cooling I can find.  It sounds like Jeff's form will only be for a 912.  Do you have access to something like it for my 914?  Thanks

 Paul Boulet, N914PB



--- On Wed, 2/11/09, ALAN YERLY <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:



 [quote]From: ALAN YERLY <budyerly(at)msn.com>

Subject: Re: Cooling Shroud

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 4:09 PM



     Jeff,

 Good going.  

  

 Although mine covers the whole intake manifold and is set up for the 914.  Your copy of the Rotax part is tidy and a lot cheaper than that overpriced vinyl ester piece Rotax sells.

  

 You may find that if you made yours from Aeropoxy that the edges may get a little brown around the head, but not too bad.  Vinyl ester can take a little more temperature, but I figure if the lunch boxes on top of the cylinders of a Jabiru at 300F hold up made from Aeropoxy, it will work on the rotax.

  

 You have a tri gear, and I can't believe with that big hole behind your engine frame, that you need this, but let me know how it's working.

  

 Bud

 Custom Flight Creations.

 [quote] ---

jeff(at)rmmm.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:34 pm Post subject: Cooling Shroud

Hi Paul & Bud,

I would think if your willing to take the manifolds off this may work  

for both 912 & 914 shouldn't it? Of course I'm not sure on that so let  

me know. I've decided that the mold would work better for all if I left  

the part out where the intake tube goes in. That way those that have a  

pump or alternator there could make the shroud then glass around and or  

over it, then add the 2 inch tube.

  I haven't had time this week so far to make the mold but I may get to  

it this weekend. I'll keep the list posted.



Jeff R.

A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 176 hours and climbing slowly & looking  

forward to the flying season.

On Feb 11, 2009, at 6:35 PM, Paul Boulet wrote:



[quote] Hi Bud;

 I also have a 914 and with the hot Arizona temps need all the cooling  

 I can find.  It sounds like Jeff's form will only be for a 912.  Do  

 you have access to something like it for my 914?  Thanks

 Paul Boulet, N914PB



 --- On Wed, 2/11/09, ALAN YERLY <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:

> From: ALAN YERLY <budyerly(at)msn.com>

> Subject: Re: Cooling Shroud

> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

> Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 4:09 PM

>

> Jeff,

> Good going. 

>  

> Although mine covers the whole intake manifold and is set up for the  

> 914.  Your copy of the Rotax part is tidy and a lot cheaper than that  

> overpriced vinyl ester piece Rotax sells.

>  

> You may find that if you made yours from Aeropoxy that the edges may  

> get a little brown around the head, but not too bad.  Vinyl ester can  

> take a little more temperature, but I figure if the lunch boxes on  

> top of the cylinders of a Jabiru at 300F hold up made from Aeropoxy,  

> it will work on the rotax.

>  

> You have a tri gear, and I can't believe with that big hole behind  

> your engine frame, that you need this, but let me know how it's  

> working.

>  

> Bud

> Custom Flight Creations.

>> ---

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