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matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:48 pm Post subject: Adding wing tanks

Hey  all,

  

 I'm starting to dream of some  cross-country adventures as soon as my mud strip becomes a grass strip again. A  large part of my planning would involve where to stop to refuel and how to get  decent mogas. Not to start any new mogas vs 100LL discussions or recommendations  as to the strength of my bladder and/or constitution - I saved this link from  Noel:

  

  

http://www.wingtanks.com 

  

I  currently have the 9+ gallon in-the-dash tank plus a 6 gallon aluminum reserve  tank in the starboard wing. I like the look of the 6 gallon tanks on the website  and am thinking that 2 of them in the port wing with a valve in the line as an  additional 10+ gallon dump-in-flight reserve tank could get me to where I  want to go without stops. The extra weight of the fuel would not matter as it  would be just me and some camping gear, and if I carried a passenger I obviously  would just not carry as much reserve or go as far. 

  

Can  anyone advise as to why this might be a dumb idea? I know you guys *love* to  point out dumb ideas...  

  Bob Brennan - N717GB

 ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa 



   [quote][b]

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:22 pm Post subject: Adding wing tanks

On Tue, February 10, 2009 12:47 pm, Bob Brennan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm starting to dream of some cross-country adventures as soon as my mud

 strip becomes a grass strip again. A large part of my planning would involve

 where to stop to refuel and how to get decent mogas.


	


Here's the ticket to fuel stop planning.



<http://www.airnav.com/plan/fuel/>



You can pick the type of strips you prefer and the fuel required.



A long time ago I did the flight planning for Miguel Ramirez' first trips into the US

including his trip to Sun 'n Fun using this tool.



One thing to consider as a possibility for doing some long legs without passenger is

doing something like Michael Gordillo did with his KF 4 on his round the world trip to

OSH. He used a fuel bladder. Something you could easily remove when not needed and

would not require the investment and labor of installing custom tanks which you

normally don't need.



-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: Adding wing tanks

[quote="matronics(at)bob.brennan."]Hey  all,

  

 I'm starting to dream of some  cross-country adventures as soon as my mud strip becomes a grass strip again. A  large part of my planning would involve where to stop to refuel and how to get  decent mogas. Not to start any new mogas vs 100LL discussions or recommendations  as to the strength of my bladder and/or constitution - I saved this link from  Noel:

  

  

http://www.wingtanks.com 

  

I  currently have the 9+ gallon in-the-dash tank plus a 6 gallon aluminum reserve  tank in the starboard wing. I like the look of the 6 gallon tanks on the website  and am thinking that 2 of them in the port wing with a valve in the line as an  additional 10+ gallon dump-in-flight reserve tank could get me to where I  want to go without stops. The extra weight of the fuel would not matter as it  would be just me and some camping gear, and if I carried a passenger I obviously  would just not carry as much reserve or go as far. 

  

Can  anyone advise as to why this might be a dumb idea? I know you guys *love* to  point out dumb ideas...  

  Bob Brennan - N717GB

 ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa 



    	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	




Bob,



My Brothers old KF II has the 9 gallon nose tank and a 12 gallon wing tank.  On wheels and floats, it was not uncommon for me to top the tanks and put another 12 gallons strapped to the float and 12 gallons in the seat next to me.  The plane will carry the weight, just stay out of bad turbulence and grease the landings when loaded real heavy.  I am certain that the "gross" weight has a little fudge factor built in.



Course, this is only personal experience over a couple hundred hours in his plane so take it as snake oil if you feel the need LOL.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:06 pm Post subject: Adding wing tanks

Thanks for the reply Paul but I've used airnav before but for the trip I am

planning, for instance, from K8N7 to KLUK it only comes up with 1 possible

stop that sells mogas. More than 100 miles out of the way and the airport

info does not actually state that they sell mogas.



My actual question to the list is, disregarding the time and expense to

install the tanks or alternative ways of getting fuel, how smart/hard is it

to install the tanks at wingtanks.com in a Model 2? I am assuming it is a

matter or opening up the top of the wing, gluing the tanks in, running the

lines, and new fabric and paint. No major structural changes or gotchas that

I might discover after opening the wing and spending the money on the tanks?

Anyone on the list actually installed these tanks in a completed Kitfox?



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Adding wing tanks

 	  Quote: 	
		  Can anyone advise as to why this might be a dumb idea? I know you guys *love* to point out dumb ideas...  

Bob Brennan - N717GB 



http://www.wingtanks.com/ 	




Bob, the information I can't see on that web site is if there is some structural component to replace the drag/anti drag tubes that would be removed from the wing when installing the tanks in a wing with no original tank.  It could be a good modification, I would want to know more before diving in to it though.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:26 pm Post subject: Adding wing tanks

You might try a search in the Avid Yahoo group's archives.  I think Steve Winder posted some info on installing the tanks a while back.    Jim Chuk  Avid MK IV   Mn

[quote] From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Adding wing tanks

 Date: Tue C 10 Feb 2009 16:58:46 -0500

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Brennan" <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>

 Thanks for the reply Paul but I've used airnav before but for the trip I am

 planning C for instance C from K8N7 to KLUK it only comes up with 1 possible

 stop that sells mogas. More than 100 miles out of the way and the airport

 info does not actually state that they sell mogas.

 My actual question to the list is C disregarding the time and expense to

 install the tanks or alternative ways of getting fuel C how smart/hard is it

 to install the tanks at wingtanks.com in a Model 2? I am assuming it is a

 matter or opening up the top of the wing C gluing the tanks in C running the

 lines C and new fabric and paint. No major structural changes or gotchas that

 I might discover after opening the wing and spending the money on the tanks?

 Anyone on the list actually installed these tanks in a completed Kitfox?

 Bob Brennan - N717GB

 ELSA Repairman C inspection rated

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa 

 --

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:46 pm Post subject: Adding wing tanks

On Tue, February 10, 2009 1:58 pm, Bob Brennan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thanks for the reply Paul but I've used airnav before but for the trip I am

 planning, for instance, from K8N7 to KLUK


	


Could you provide a nearby town and state for those two or lat lon? I couldn't find

either of those in my directory search.



-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:05 pm Post subject: Adding wing tanks

It's a trip from Columbia Pa to Cincinnati Ohio, where I haven't yet decided

on a small airport near Cincinnati and picked KLUK as the nearest to my

destination. I would be visiting my daughter and her family and expect to

refuel using gas cans and going to a local gas station. I expect the trip to

be between 4 and 5 hours and with my current 16 gallons I can easily go 3.5

hours with reserves, it would be nice to go that little extra without

stopping and with a permanently and properly installed solution. The point

is I would rather not land to get mogas, or 100LL, or even pour in some I

brought with me in a gerry can; and am hoping that wingtanks.com might be a

viable alternative.



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject: Adding wing tanks

On Tue, February 10, 2009 1:58 pm, Bob Brennan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thanks for the reply Paul but I've used airnav before but for the trip I am

 planning, for instance, from K8N7 to KLUK it only comes up with 1 possible

 stop that sells mogas. More than 100 miles out of the way and the airport

 info does not actually state that they sell mogas.


	


This route is only 10 miles more than the great circle route. Fuel stop pretty close

to the middle.



<http://www.airnav.com/cgi-bin/fuelroute/M/8N7-3PN9-LUK>



This route only adds about 31 miles and is a sure bet for fuel.



<http://www.airnav.com/cgi-bin/fuelroute/M/8N7-1OA7-LUK>



The trick is to call the airport first and tell them that you're wanting to stop for

fuel and you'll be coming in an experimental aircraft. My experience is that you'll be

give the red carpet treatment at a small field. Offer to buy the guy who answers the

phone lunch for giving you the help. You'll likely meet a new friend and this will

just add to the fun of the adventure of traveling.



Fuel at Phil Cain call 724-468-5482 - the only fuel they have is MoGas!

Fuel at Yoder call 330-875-8800



You might want to revisit AirNav.



When Miguel flew from San Luis Potosi Mexico his first stop in the US wa to clear

customs was McAllen TX. From there I found stops for him no more than 2.5 hours apart

all the way to Sun 'n Fun. I made the first few calls for him and reported my findings

and Miguel caught on to this and had an absolutely wonderful experience in his KF

model 4. Especially at small and private fields. He had all kinds of offers to use a

car, for a place to stay and even free hangar overnight space.



-- 

Paul Franz

425.440.9505 (O)

425.241.1618 (C)

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Adding wing tanks

Bob, the website says they install in an afternoon, and go in either wing etc. on the FAQ tab.  Why dont you email the manufacture at sales(at)wingtanks.com



They can answer all your questions first hand.

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:34 pm Post subject: Adding wing tanks

On Tue, February 10, 2009 3:02 pm, Bob Brennan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 It's a trip from Columbia Pa to Cincinnati Ohio, where I haven't yet decided

 on a small airport near Cincinnati and picked KLUK as the nearest to my

 destination.


	


You probably would like Clermont County Airport (I69) a little better fora KF

destination. It's about 10 miles from LUK.



<http://www.airnav.com/airport/I69>



I'd phone them before finalizing your destination.



Another nice little airport not too far from your route is the Fayette County Airport

(I23):



<http://www.airnav.com/airport/I23>



You could probably make that your first and only fuel stop too.



-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

jdmcbean(at)kitfoxaircraf
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:03 pm Post subject: Adding wing tanks

Bob,

	This discussion was talked about at length sometime ago.  Please

check the archives.  There are several issues regarding the installation of

these tanks on a Kitfox wing.. The drag-anti-drag being an important one and

the plywood across the bottom has it's own issues.  There are also issues

with cross linked PE with expansion and heat. A wing with color on it could

get very hot inside.  And another important item.. The wing has not been

structurally tested with that installation.  Not to mention the weight of

the installation.



We also have tanks that are using ethanol resistant resins and are available

for all the models.. in 6 and 13 gallon capacity.

Fly Safe !!

John McBean

Ph 208.337.5111

www.kitfoxaircraft.com 

"The Sky is not the Limit...  It's a Playground" 





--

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:40 pm Post subject: Adding wing tanks

Yeah, install in an afternoon and end up with as crappy a job as  

their photos show....sorry, but I'd rather take some time and do the  

job a *little* more professionally.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying

do not archive



On Feb 10, 2009, at 6:21 PM, akflyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Bob, the website says they install in an afternoon, and go in  

 either wing etc. on the FAQ tab.  Why dont you email the  

 manufacture at sales(at)wingtanks.com



 They can answer all your questions first hand.



 --------

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 Leonard Perry aka SNAKE

 Soldotna AK

 Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV

 582 IVO IFA

 Full Lotus 1260

 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009



 hander outer of humorless darwin awards





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 29631#229631

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:09 pm Post subject: Adding wing tanks

Well first of all it looks like they are removing some ribs, and the

"drag/anti-drag tubes" that Tom Jones mentions - that worries me...



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/avid_flyer/photos/album/353762308/pic/list



John McBean - could you please advise on the "tanks that are using ethanol

resistant resins and are available for all the models.. in 6 and 13 gallon

capacity" that you are selling for a Model 2? I much prefer to buy from you.



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

dholly

Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 40
Location: Upstate NY

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:29 am Post subject: Re: Adding wing tanks

John- 



Can you provide new 13gal tanks both L/R for 1-1/2" twist .083 2-1/2" o.d. 144" long spars w/ 27-1/4" between F/R spar C/L's (ie., Avid speed wing)? 



Thanks



 	  jdmcbean(at)kitfoxaircraf wrote: 	
		  

We also have tanks that are using ethanol resistant resins and are available for all the models.. in 6 and 13 gallon capacity.



Fly Safe !!

John McBean

Ph 208.337.5111

www.kitfoxaircraft.comï¿½

"The Sky is not the Limit...ï¿½ It's a Playground"

_________________
-Kitfox III 582 Blue/C Grove Spring / Aerocet 1100 Amphibs
-Airdale Avid+ (project) TD / W.I.B. Gear

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:22 am Post subject: Adding wing tanks

Bob and dholly-

You'd be better off contacting John and Debra McBean directly with  

these questions...they have both said in the past that they don't  

always have the time to go to this website and look for questions  

addressed to them. Yes, John has responded to the current thread, but  

if he gets busy, he may not see your followup question to him. I'm  

just passing on what he has told me in person.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying

do not archive



On Feb 10, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>



 Well first of all it looks like they are removing some ribs, and the

 "drag/anti-drag tubes" that Tom Jones mentions - that worries me...



 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/avid_flyer/photos/album/353762308/pic/ 

 list



 John McBean - could you please advise on the "tanks that are using  

 ethanol

 resistant resins and are available for all the models.. in 6 and 13  

 gallon

 capacity" that you are selling for a Model 2? I much prefer to buy  

 from you.



 Bob Brennan - N717GB

 ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:49 am Post subject: Adding wing tanks

I69 is a friendly little non-towered airport with a nice pilot shop  

contained within. You might have heard of it...it's called Sporty's.  

A friend and I stopped there ...separate planes...on a windy day,  

that got windier as we dawdled there. The airport manager looked the  

other way when I used one of the "high-speed runway turn-offs" as my  

takeoff runway (so as to better align myself with the wind  

direction). When I asked him if I could do this, he said "ok, we'll  

just look the other way." Well, he might have looked the other way,  

but there were plenty of flight instructors and their students  

looking my way when I did it. I used part of the parallel taxiway to  

get rolling, turned onto the high-speed turnoff, gave it full power,  

and was off the ground before I got to the runway. You may not need  

to do this in your Cessna, (my buddy didn't) but you surely wouldn't  

want to try. The Kitfox handled it with ease. I just wasn't that sure  

of myself at the time with that much crosswind, so I was just not  

taking any chances.



Anyway, the point is, I69 is close to commerce, and friendly, and  

might even have a loaner car so you could get the mogas that you need.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying

do not archive



On Feb 10, 2009, at 7:32 PM, Paul Franz - Merlin GT wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <paul(at)eucleides.com>



 On Tue, February 10, 2009 3:02 pm, Bob Brennan wrote:

> 

> <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>

>

> It's a trip from Columbia Pa to Cincinnati Ohio, where I haven't  

> yet decided

> on a small airport near Cincinnati and picked KLUK as the nearest  

> to my

> destination.



 You probably would like Clermont County Airport (I69) a little  

 better fora KF

 destination. It's about 10 miles from LUK.



 <http://www.airnav.com/airport/I69>



 I'd phone them before finalizing your destination.



 Another nice little airport not too far from your route is the  

 Fayette County Airport

 (I23):



 <http://www.airnav.com/airport/I23>



 You could probably make that your first and only fuel stop too.



 -- 

 Paul A. Franz

 Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

 Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

 Bellevue WA

 425.241.1618 Cell

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

eskflyer

Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 44
Location: AK

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:28 am Post subject: Re: Adding wing tanks

Put the wing tanks in from KITFOX  and you will not have any issues . I had 23 gallons in mine with the wing tank and the nose tank . Wished i had the left wing tank many times . The plane can handle it fine just go easy in heavy turbulence as my bro said . we flew mine for literally hundred's of hours loaded to user defined gross weight , Remember its experimental  . 



3579A

_________________
FLY FUN FLY LOW FLY SLOW
John Perry
Kitfox 2 N718PD
582 cbox 2:62-1 IVO IFA
1220 Full Lotus

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Adding wing tanks

 	  eskflyer wrote: 	
		  Put the wing tanks in from KITFOX  and you will not have any issues . I had 23 gallons in mine with the wing tank and the nose tank . Wished i had the left wing tank many times . The plane can handle it fine just go easy in heavy turbulence as my bro said . we flew mine for literally hundred's of hours loaded to user defined gross weight , Remember its experimental  . 



3579A 	


uhhh not have any issues??? what happens when the wing tank is filled over 3/4 on your bird.

These are issues that Steve was trying to do away with when they made the poly tanks.



Just tossing a little snake oil out there, the poly wing tanks were developed by or with input from the aircraft manufacture (avid) and DESIGNED to be put in the avid / kitfox wings.  Now everyone has to second guess the install.  I talked to Steve Winder about these and he told me the installation was engineered to provide the same strength as the original wing.  :dunno: but it seems that he just may know what he was talking about as he was pretty much "AVID" for many years.

akflyerbob

Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 30
Location: Soldotna, Alaska

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:16 am Post subject: Re: Adding wing tanks

Bob

When I bought my mod 1 fox, stripped for rebuild, it had two 6 gal tks.

I put a 13 gal fiberglass tk in the left wing. I did remove one diagonal and one rib. The tk is glued to the spars with construction silicone. Flexabile

but very strong. I'm sure glad I did it. 

I have a mod 3 I'm working on which has a 13 +- gal in each wing.

Some where there are instructions, from kit fox, on how to install them. I have all the books, I'll see what I can find for you. 

Others should also have the books.

That might end the guessing.

_________________
Bob Wolfe..Soldotna, Alaska
KF Mod I and III

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