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4RCSIMMONS(at)comcast.net
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 Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:40 am Post subject: IFR Qualifications |
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OK guys! A real Airplane question.
In layman's terms, what is the minimum equipment needed to make my 601 IFR Capable.
The plane is too light for much in the IFR environment but I still would like the capability for those early morning departures.
Any descent discussion would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Rich
[quote][b]
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jmaynard
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:44 am Post subject: IFR Qualifications |
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On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 12:39:26PM +0000, Rich Simmons wrote:
| Quote: | In layman's terms, what is the minimum equipment needed to make my 601 IFR
Capable.
|
See 91.205 for the legal minimums.
That's a pretty minimal list, too. You'll want some decent avionics and
instruments for the job, as well as a heated pitot (which isn't listed
there) and maybe an openable window like AMD puts in the XLi/LSi for you to
stick your arm out and scrape ice off the canopy.
| Quote: | The plane is too light for much in the IFR environment but I still would
like the capability for those early morning departures.
|
Don't sell it short...it might be light, but it's pretty stable, and that
dfefinitely helps matters.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
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Gig Giacona
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:26 am Post subject: Re: IFR Qualifications |
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The first thing you need to equip your 601 with in order to fly IFR is a sentence like this in the operating limitations.
“After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with § 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only.”
Without that you could install the panel from a 777 in it and it won't be legal. Then as Jay said look at 91.205. Blue Mountain Avionics has a pretty good document available on the subject here.
http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/pdf/IFR%20equipment.pdf
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W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
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psm(at)att.net
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:39 am Post subject: IFR Qualifications |
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Hi Rich,
Minimum can be measured in several different ways.
If it is minimum cost you are after, then I think an EFIS is the best
choice. This gives you a complete gyro and pressure instrument panel
in an inexpensive package. It doesn't give you sufficient backup for
extended IFR, but you might consider it enough for your needs. You
also need some radios suitable to the operations you want to perform.
If you go with steam gauges, you will pay a lot more than you will
for a non-certified EFIS. I'm not sure exactly how many you need to
be legal, but if you don't want to be always on partial panel flying
you need a full six pack.
For radios, you probably will want a complete VOR/ILS setup along
with a certified (panel mounted) GPS. There are many choices of
vendors and models in this area, and all will cost you a lot more
than a good EFIS. You will have a hard time beating a Garmin SL-30
for NAV/COMM including LOC and GS in a single small package. You
still need marker beacons for a complete ILS. With all the GPS
approaches being established you probably want a fancy WAAS enabled
ILS capable GPS. Of course you will need a transponder, and just
about any will do.
One area to watch out for is the amount of electrical current you
need to power up all this stuff. You may find the alternator in your
engine of choice is the limiting factor to your system. This is
especially true if you want lights for night operation as well.
Good luck,
Paul
XL getting close
do not archive
At 04:39 AM 2/10/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: | OK guys! A real Airplane question.
In layman's terms, what is the minimum equipment needed to make my
601 IFR Capable.
The plane is too light for much in the IFR environment but I still
would like the capability for those early morning departures.
Any descent discussion would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Rich
|
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Gig Giacona
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:52 am Post subject: Re: IFR Qualifications |
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The lightest and lowest power drain IFR you are going to get is a EFIS like the Dynon and an SL30. The SL30 also gives you the advantage of having 2 VORs in one unit because you can see the output of the main VOR freq on Dynon and have the standby VOR freq on the SL30's own LED screen.
You can then get you Marker Beacon Read out from this.
http://www.rst-engr.com/rst/catalog/marker_receiver.html
And while an IFR legal GPS would be great the installation requirements and costs are significant. So if you augment all the legal stuff with something like a Garmin 496 you also have the fully isolated, battery backed, GPS derived, "6 pack" to get you out of the clouds should everything go to hell in a handbag on you.
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W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR |
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rtdin
Joined: 16 Mar 2008
Posts: 46
Location: Florida panhandle
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:28 pm Post subject: IFR Qualifications |
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Hi Rich,
The short answer is the equipment in FAR 91:205 & heated pitot. Placard the strobes "Off when in clouds." A VOR/LOC receiver, transponder and a VHF Com should get you started. Got required publications? An approach certified GPS instead of a VOR/LOC will not give you much more of an edge and will run up the costs. Nice to have though. This is the least for a IFR to VFR departure into clearing conditions.
While flight planning, the first thing that you need is a good alternate. Alternates with only GPS approaches are slowly being approved. Many are not. Real world, hardly anyone actually goes to their filed alternate.
The most likely scenario is the VFR to IFR arrival. For several good reasons, I use "pop up" clearances many times. I have been asked to designate an alternate destination in flight only once. Once on the ground, no one will ask about your heated pitot or the amount of fuel remaining. Everyone will just be glad to see you.
I would go with the old six pack steam gauges. I have never, ever seen more than one instrument fail at any time. On the other hand, the EFIS available to aircraft the size of the 601 usually have but one display powered by one buss. Single point of failure. The glass cockpits that I am familiar with have three displays for each pilot with many reversion modes and powered by two busses. Not to mention the three standby steam gauge instruments. Not available with a single EFIS.
I did quite well with my old Beech with only VOR/LOC. ATC can ID marker beacons, etc for you if you ask. I even filed legally into my "Home Drome" with only its one published GPS procedure. I had only a hand held GPS. The minimum vectoring altitude there is 1700' and the ceilings must be reported/forcast higher. Its in Class C and there is an ILS 12 miles away. I don't know your experience level and urge caution.
Bob Dingley
601XL/Lyc (Holding at the wings)
Do not archive
**************
The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL Music takes you there. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000002) [quote][b]
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craig(at)craigandjean.com
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:55 pm Post subject: IFR Qualifications |
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There is plenty of room in a 601’s panel for two EFIS and at least two manufacturers (Dynon and MGL) support dedicated back-up batteries for their units. Complete redundancy at a reasonable price is quite doable. Pictures of example panels attached.
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of MaxNr(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:26 PM
To: Zenith-List(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: IFR Qualifications
Hi Rich,
The short answer is the equipment in FAR 91:205 & heated pitot. Placard the strobes "Off when in clouds." A VOR/LOC receiver, transponder and a VHF Com should get you started. Got required publications? An approach certified GPS instead of a VOR/LOC will not give you much more of an edge and will run up the costs. Nice to have though. This is the least for a IFR to VFR departure into clearing conditions.
While flight planning, the first thing that you need is a good alternate. Alternates with only GPS approaches are slowly being approved. Many are not. Real world, hardly anyone actually goes to their filed alternate.
The most likely scenario is the VFR to IFR arrival. For several good reasons, I use "pop up" clearances many times. I have been asked to designate an alternate destination in flight only once. Once on the ground, no one will ask about your heated pitot or the amount of fuel remaining. Everyone will just be glad to see you.
I would go with the old six pack steam gauges. I have never, ever seen more than one instrument fail at any time. On the other hand, the EFIS available to aircraft the size of the 601 usually have but one display powered by one buss. Single point of failure. The glass cockpits that I am familiar with have three displays for each pilot with many reversion modes and powered by two busses. Not to mention the three standby steam gauge instruments. Not available with a single EFIS.
I did quite well with my old Beech with only VOR/LOC. ATC can ID marker beacons, etc for you if you ask. I even filed legally into my "Home Drome" with only its one published GPS procedure. I had only a hand held GPS. The minimum vectoring altitude there is 1700' and the ceilings must be reported/forcast higher. Its in Class C and there is an ILS 12 miles away. I don't know your experience level and urge caution.
Bob Dingley
601XL/Lyc (Holding at the wings)
Do not archive
**************
The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL Music takes you there. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000002) | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
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rtdin
Joined: 16 Mar 2008
Posts: 46
Location: Florida panhandle
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:25 pm Post subject: IFR Qualifications |
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I read the question as:"What is the minimum equipment?" The price tag for dual Dynon or MGL = how much? BTW, have you ever experienced a display going black like they sometime do in the multi million dollar aircraft with plenty of electrical power available?
Bob
**************
The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL Music takes you there. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000002) [quote][b]
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craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:00 pm Post subject: IFR Qualifications |
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The 5.7 inch (diagonal) MGL unit (“Enigma”) is $2,350. But it is also an HSI display for your NAV radio, a moving map GPS and the engine monitor (and autopilot if you wish). You still need the magnetic and gyro sensors ($240 and $950, respectively) but they can be shared if you don’t want complete redundancy. And the box that mounts FWF to read engine sensors is $195. But for a completely redundant system the price is
2 Enigma $4700
2 sensors packages $1190
1 engine pod $195
TOTAL $6085
So what’s the price of a 6 pack of steam gauges (good quality, not Chinese imports), a good compass, a moving map GPS and engine instruments? Now compare the relative reliability of the two: both the reliability of the individual components and the overall reliability of the system. How much does the system degrade when a component fails? With the 6 pack loose a gauge and you are left inferring the lost data from the remaining instruments. Loose one of two EFIS and you have the same information.
Also place a value on increased situational awareness. Things like “highway in the sky”, fuel flow, the direct display of density altitude, wind direction, AOA, voice alarms when engine measurements go out of spec, etc.
Of course I understand the downside of losing one EFIS. That’s why my original response described dual units. For maximum reliability buy two different brands of EFIS – that insulates you from seeing the same bug on both displays.
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of MaxNr(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:24 PM
To: Zenith-List(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: IFR Qualifications
I read the question as:"What is the minimum equipment?" The price tag for dual Dynon or MGL = how much? BTW, have you ever experienced a display going black like they sometime do in the multi million dollar aircraft with plenty of electrical power available?
Bob
**************
The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL Music takes you there. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000002) | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
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psm(at)att.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:21 am Post subject: IFR Qualifications |
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Hi Craig,
I'm afraid you still failed to cover all single
point failures on your "Dual" system.
What if the plane gets hit by lightning and all
the electrics are wiped out? For this event you
still need a VACUUM driven gyro.
Paul
XL getting close
do not archive
At 10:55 PM 2/11/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: | Of course I understand the downside of losing
one EFIS. Thats why my original response
described dual units. For maximum reliability
buy two different brands of EFIS that
insulates you from seeing the same bug on both displays.
|
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jmaynard
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:48 am Post subject: IFR Qualifications |
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On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 04:19:53AM -0800, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
| Quote: | What if the plane gets hit by lightning and all the electrics are wiped
out? For this event you still need a VACUUM driven gyro.
|
AMD uses all electric gyros...and their aircraft have all of the lightning
protection required by the current FAR part 23. There is no vacuum pump in
my airplane. Vacuum pumps fail much, much more often than aircraft get hit
by lightning. The FAA apparently doesn't consider it a serious risk, or else
they wouldn't allow all-electric instruments in an IFR-certified aircraft.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
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Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC |
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jimandmandy(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:43 am Post subject: IFR Qualifications |
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If you look at the panel of certified aircraft with "glass" panels, from Boeing down to Cirrus, they have "steam gauge" artificial horizon, airspeed and altimeter as backups. Maybe not technically required under the FARs, but there.
Jim
--- On Wed, 2/11/09, MaxNr(at)aol.com <MaxNr(at)aol.com> wrote:
[quote]From: MaxNr(at)aol.com <MaxNr(at)aol.com>
Subject: RE: Re: IFR Qualifications
To: Zenith-List(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 9:24 PM
I read the question as:"What is the minimum equipment?" The price tag for dual Dynon or MGL = how much? BTW, have you ever experienced a display going black like they sometime do in the multi million dollar aircraft with plenty of electrical power available?
Bob
**************
The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL Music takes you there. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000002) [quote][b]
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Juan Vega Jr
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 157
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:47 am Post subject: IFR Qualifications |
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on the new ones they dont if the efis has a backup battery.
--
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psm(at)att.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:50 am Post subject: IFR Qualifications |
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Hi Jay,
I'm going to ask you to trust me on this one. I don't want to go
into details because they are too awful for this discussion
group. There really are ways all your electrics can be absolutely
destroyed all at once. If you insist, I will inform you off list of
how this can happen.
Your point about vacuum pumps being more failure prone than electrics
is a good one but not at all related to this "Worst Case"
discussion. The point here is that it is unlikely the vacuum pump
will fail under the same circumstances all the electrics fail
too. The vacuum pump can fail every other flight, and still be the
only way to stay upright in case of a total electrical failure.
The notion of having no electric equipment working in hard IFR is a
very scary one. Without a non-electric gyro to stay upright it will
certainly be fatal.
Paul
XL getting close
do not archive
At 05:45 AM 2/12/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: | AMD uses all electric gyros...and their aircraft have all of the lightning
protection required by the current FAR part 23. There is no vacuum pump in
my airplane. Vacuum pumps fail much, much more often than aircraft get hit
by lightning. The FAA apparently doesn't consider it a serious risk, or else
they wouldn't allow all-electric instruments in an IFR-certified aircraft.
|
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craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:03 am Post subject: IFR Qualifications |
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The vacuum is between my ears. Besides if I get hit by lightening there will
be no shortage of electricity.
-- Craig
Still do not archive
--
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Gig Giacona
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:14 am Post subject: Re: IFR Qualifications |
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OK folks, there is IFR and there is IFR. I would never consider taking a 601 into what I would consider hard IFR.
But with today's more complex airspace issues such as security TFR it isn't such a bad idea to file IFR if you are on a cross-country trip. But to be able to file IFR you have to be able to legally file IFR.
What it comes down to is that not all IFR flight needs super redundant back up. It is up to the pilot to set their personal minimums for the way their aircraft is outfitted and the WX and airspace they are flying in.
And as mentioned upthread the best peice of IFR backup in a 601 or a Citation is probably a Garmin 496 or a 696. Kill all the other instruments in the plane with a hammer and it is capable of getting you to safety.
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W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR |
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craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:19 am Post subject: IFR Qualifications |
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Is there a redundant electrical supply for the electric gyros on the AMD
XLs?
-- Craig
--
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jmaynard
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:25 am Post subject: IFR Qualifications |
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On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 10:16:57AM -0700, Craig Payne wrote:
| Quote: | Is there a redundant electrical supply for the electric gyros on the AMD
XLs?
|
Yes. There's a second battery, charged through a diode off the alternator,
and manually activated. In the event of total electrical failure, you switch
off the master and switch on the alternate battery. It powers the gyros,
only, for about two hours. It's not connected to the avionics or,
unfortunately, the Dynon, but it'll keep you upright long enough to land.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
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_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC |
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rtdin
Joined: 16 Mar 2008
Posts: 46
Location: Florida panhandle
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:55 am Post subject: IFR Qualifications |
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Come on. Rich asked what was the minimum equipment to launch IFR into clearing VFR conditions. It was my idea to also address the "doomsday" scenario to get you down safely in deteriorating conditions. Yes, glass cockpits are mandated to install backup analog instruments. The standby Attitude Display Indicator (ADI) in an installation that I am familiar with cost almost as much as a Lexus. In a 2 1/4 inch instrument, you also have T&B, VOR/LOC with glide slope and more.
If there is any chance of lightning, please keep the 601XLs on the ground.
Bob
Plans #6-7791
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4RCSIMMONS(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:16 am Post subject: IFR Qualifications |
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Sorry guys, I am a bit hard headed.
I guess my question which is only somewhat answered:
If I were to put in a six pack with a "single" Nav/com am I IFR leagal (Vacum included)?
Compass and Heated Pitot included!
If not, is a handheld GPS good enough for a supplimental/redundant means of full navigation.
Now, I f I go with a Dynon or the MGL with HSI capability, am I legal using the GarminSL30!
It also seems that even with the awsome gismos like the EFIS, FAA and common sense says backup steam gauge is required.
One more question, if I make mine IFR leagal, what is the requirments for testing the IFR components to be kept IFR legal.
In Certified craft it is annually(?) or what. CAn I prove the components wothiness or does some one lese have to do it?
I am currently working on my IFR ticket and actuallly see quite of an improvment in my pilotage. My Navigation is krisper and tholding those headings is a whole lot easier now. It is actually fun learning something again.
The comments about hard IFR, I would run from it. Having a fog bank I can enter and break through to the top side and continue on would be absoluelty awsome and I would be smiling in awe at the break of the blue sky.
I just want to make light IFR an option in some of my desired journey if I ever get this thing built!!!
Rich
601XL Canopy fitting
[quote][b]
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