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KFM Battery Size

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henrysfork1(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:09 pm Post subject: KFM Battery Size

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Which battery should I be using? 

  

 Dee Young

 Model II

 N345DY

  

 Do not archive

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

henrysfork1(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:39 pm Post subject: KFM Battery Size

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  The 14-BS battery does not have enough cold cranking amps to spin the  KFM when its cold out. 

  

 Thanks

  

 Dee Young

 Model II

 N345DY

  

 Do not archive

  

  

 Clint says -

  

 I am using a 14-BS battery that you can get a any auto supply store.   I change it out every 2 years, but wouldn't have to.  Weighs in at 10 1/2  lbs.  Works very well on my 912ULS with high compression.  Its true,  haven't had it at real low temp, about 20F with snow lowest.  Less then  half the size. And I am sure a lot cheaper.

 

Clint

 [quote]   ---

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:30 pm Post subject: KFM Battery Size

On Wed, February 11, 2009 4:38 pm, Dee Young wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The 14-BS battery does not have enough cold cranking amps to spin the KFM when its

 cold out.

Here's some battery information from Bob Nuckolls Aeroelectric connection:
	


<http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Battery/>



I believe the current best practice is to have two small batteries where one is

changed out every year. You size batteries such that you have enough reserve to

complete the intended flight operation. This requirement is normally for more reserve

than cold engine cranking.



I am going to follow Bob's recommendations for wiring, contactors and redundancy.



If you cannot find the precise battery information you need by searching the

aeroelectric archives, then post the request on the forum.



Bob has a FAQ that is over 300 pages long that answers questions by category.



<http://www.aeroelectric.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List/AeroElectric-List_FAQ.pdf>



Batteries, contacters and OV protection are among the subjects covered.

-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

henrysfork1(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:22 pm Post subject: KFM Battery Size

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  I am not sure any of you are that familiar with the KFM. The engine is hard  starting when cold and requires 300 rpms to trigger the mags. If the  battery can't spin the engine in 0 degree weather then it will not start.  End of story. The Odyssey does a good job for me and I am pleased with  its performance. 

  

 Dee Young

 Model II

 N345DY

  

 Do not archive

 [quote]   ---

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: KFM Battery Size

They use the Odyssey PC310 in the Flight Design with the Rotax 912ULS. I have had mine over 2 years now and no issues. It is a military spec battery.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

henrysfork1(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:40 am Post subject: KFM Battery Size

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Roger do you think this battery would have a enough zip to spin a cold  engine (at) 0 degrees?

  

 Dee Young

 N345DY

 Model II

  

 Do not archive

 [quote]   ---

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:58 am Post subject: Re: KFM Battery Size

Yes I do. Many Flight Design pilots living around the world live in climates that cold or worse. The Oddyssey battery is a very good battery, but it also likes to be charged. Two things that make the starting process much easier. Keep the battery charged. If you fly once a week or more no problem, but if it's once every 4 weeks put a float charger on it. Second keep the oil/engine warm before starting. There are several ways people do this. Really cold oil even though it still pours may slow the engine rotation just enough to keep it from firing especially if the battery is down some also. If you don't keep the battery charged and a very cold engine then you may have an issue.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

henrysfork1(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:34 am Post subject: KFM Battery Size

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Roger

  

 I am using the Odyssey 925 but Clint says its like putting a golf cart  battery in a Cessna. I take that to mean it must be way to small???? I know  what you mean about the cold engine and oil but your telling me I need a smaller  battery. Why would a smaller battery be better????

  

 Dee Young

 N345DY

 Model II

  

 Do not archive

  

  

 [quote]   ---

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:43 am Post subject: Re: KFM Battery Size

 	  Roger Lee wrote: 	
		  Yes I do. Many Flight Design pilots living around the world live in climates that cold or worse. The Oddyssey battery is a very good battery, but it also likes to be charged. Two things that make the starting process much easier. Keep the battery charged. If you fly once a week or more no problem, but if it's once every 4 weeks put a float charger on it. Second keep the oil/engine warm before starting. There are several ways people do this. Really cold oil even though it still pours may slow the engine rotation just enough to keep it from firing especially if the battery is down some also. If you don't keep the battery charged and a very cold engine then you may have an issue. 	




Anytime it is below freezing we preheat the 4 stroke engines.  Using a red dragon and cowl blanket, I can take a 0320 from -20 to 110 degrees in about 25 minutes.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:51 am Post subject: KFM Battery Size

I've seen some VERY big golf cart batteries....are you sure that your  

interpretation of what Clint said is correct? Maybe he could offer  

another analogy to clear up the issue.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying

do not archive



On Feb 13, 2009, at 10:33 AM, Dee Young wrote:



[quote] Roger



 I am using the Odyssey 925 but Clint says its like putting a golf  

 cart battery in a Cessna. I take that to mean it must be way to  

 small???? I know what you mean about the cold engine and oil but  

 your telling me I need a smaller battery. Why would a smaller  

 battery be better????



 Dee Young

 N345DY

 Model II



 Do not archive

 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

henrysfork1(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:16 am Post subject: KFM Battery Size

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  That might be good.

 [quote]   ---

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:33 am Post subject: KFM Battery Size

I looked up KFM 112M C a small engine.  Its starter is .44 KW.  A good 14AH battery should be fine.  Has 200 CCA C how much do you need.  I wouldn't want to start an expensive aircraft engine cold at 0 degrees without preheat.

  

 Clint

   

 From: henrysfork1(at)msn.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: KFM Battery Size

Date: Fri C 13 Feb 2009 12:14:15 -0700

     That might be good.

 [quote] ---

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:19 pm Post subject: KFM Battery Size

I thought he was implying you had way too much battery for  the airplane.  Might be wrong though.

  

 Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+  TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but  progress."

- Joseph Joubert

  

 ---

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:24 pm Post subject: KFM Battery Size

Think of an electric golf cart.  Large battery indeed.   Jim Chuk  Avid MK IV  Mn



  From: henrysfork1(at)msn.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: KFM Battery Size

Date: Fri C 13 Feb 2009 12:14:15 -0700



     That might be good.

 [quote] ---

henrysfork1(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:47 pm Post subject: KFM Battery Size

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  sorry but I don't play golf and have never seen a golf cart  battery. Thanks

 [quote]   ---

henrysfork1(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:04 pm Post subject: KFM Battery Size

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  I don't like starting at cold temps. either but I live where its cold.  If your going to fly there are times you have to be able to start your plane in  the cold or you will stay on the ground all winter. I can tell you for  sure the engine will not fire at 20 degrees with a small battery I know  that from experience. However I am willing to try what you suggest and  will save your post for reference. 

  

 Thanks to all who have commented. 

  

 Dee Young

 N345DY

 Model II

  

 Do not archive

  

  

 [quote]   ---

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: KFM Battery Size

[quote="henrysfork1(at)msn.com"]<xml><xml><endif>  I don't like starting at cold temps. either but I live where its cold.  If your going to fly there are times you have to be able to start your plane in  the cold or you will stay on the ground all winter. I can tell you for  sure the engine will not fire at 20 degrees with a small battery I know  that from experience. However I am willing to try what you suggest and  will save your post for reference. 

  

 Thanks to all who have commented. 

  

 Dee Young

 N345DY

 Model II

  

 Do not archive

  

  

  	  Quote: 	
		     --- 	




look up red dragon or engine preheater.. will save you lots of wear and tear on your engine.

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:54 pm Post subject: KFM Battery Size

Out of town on a borrowed computer and pretty much lurking, but since no one brought it up, there have been lots of battery size discussions in the past.

  

 I think Clint touched on it a bit if it was him that mentioned CCAs.   I have read that in certain instances, a large battery can sometimes have poorer cranking ability due to internal resistance than a smaller battery.  To start an engine you need to know the current it will provide in a hurry Cold Cranking Amps.  Size generally relates to how long a battery will send out any current at all as in the case where you have electronic ignition on both sides and the alternator fails.    Here you don't want a tiny battery or only one, for that matter. 

  

 As far as I recall, here on the list, most large batteries were selected to be used as ballast to correct  W / B issues enabling the builder to use a weight with some usefulness rather than a simple dead weight lead block.  I would suggest that if a normally sized battery is not cranking as it should, check the wire size, the size of the terminals and bolts and check the bolts for security.  Keep in mind as well, that a cold battery will not be as efficient as a warm one.  I have heard of folks in the cold who couldn't get the car to crank turning on the headlights to get a little chemistry going in the battery to warm it a bit.  Not being a cold - cold weather dweller, I can't speak with experience on this idea or the other special circumstances found up north.

  

 Lowell

 St. Augustine - don't need to warm anything right now



--- On Fri, 2/13/09, akflyer <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: akflyer <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: KFM Battery Size

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday, February 13, 2009, 2:56 PM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer"

<akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com>



[quote="henrysfork1(at)msn.com"]  I don't like starting at cold

temps. either but I live where its cold.  If your going to fly there are times

you have to be able to start your plane in  the cold or you will stay on the

ground all winter. I can tell you for  sure the engine will not fire at 20

degrees with a small battery I know  that from experience. However I am willing

to try what you suggest and  will save your post for reference. 

  

 Thanks to all who have commented. 

  

 Dee Young

 N345DY

 Model II

  

 Do not archive

  

  

 

 	  Quote: 	
		      ---


	




look up red dragon or engine preheater.. will save you lots of wear and tear on

your engine.



--------

DO NOT ARCHIVE

Leonard Perry aka SNAKE

Soldotna AK

Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV 

582 IVO IFA

Full Lotus 1260

#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009



hander outer of humorless darwin awards





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 30166#230166





	
	


 [quote][b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:02 pm Post subject: KFM Battery Size

It’s story time.  

   

When I was in technical school a couple of my instructors told this little story about a couple of guys flying a couple of Aero Commanders through Goose Bay Labrador to Europe.    

After a frosty night, that’s frosty for Labrador, the two guys went out to their planes and were doing their walk around  when the mechanics turned up and offered then a hot shot start for $25. Ea.  ($12.50/engine) A real bargain.  

   

The mechanics were told that the planes didn’t need preheating and the guys didn’t like to be taken advantage of.    

   

The two guys got into their planes and started their pre start checks and both started their engines almost in unison.  As their second engines fired up the first engines started to spew oil all over the shiny airplanes.  Before they noticed that they had lost all the oil in their first engines the second engines blew and they were left there on the apron with two beautiful planes covered in black mucky oil.  

   

Then they went looking for somebody to fix their planes...  Yup the two mechanics were the only civilians for around a thousand miles with no roads who were certified to do the work.  Each engine cost close to $2000.00 U.S. .  As one of the guys told me pay me now or pay me more later.... much more, a little later!  

   

What happened is the oil coolers didn’t have pressure by passes and with the oil hovering around -40 C or F pressure in the coolers quickly built up and caused the coolers ($600.00 U.S.) to blow  The engine compartments had to be cleaned ( the guys were allowed in the hangar to clean the rest of the mess) and the whole systems had to be tested.  ( both mechanics had U.S. IA ) as per the engine manufacturers MM.  

   

Add the cost of flying in parts, hotel rooms etc they still got a real deal.  

   

My point is that just because your engine starts not all is well in the State of Denmark.  Be careful of the cold starts.  Remember the worst thing you can do to an engine is to start it.  So if you must start an engine and we all must, we should try to make the starts as easy as possible on the engine.  

   

Noel  

   

--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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