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nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
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 Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:19 pm Post subject: Crash in Buffalo |
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We don't know exactly what happened to that flight, but from the information trickling out of the press conferences and the news media, one may conclude that the plane violently rolled over when the flaps were lowered. It appears to be a full roll because the wreck was found in a flat position (belly down) almost in the opposite direction of the flight, which makes one think that it rolled and yawed when the flaps deployed unevenly.
Some years ago I read about the dangers of lowering or raising the flaps during severe ice buildup for this exact reason. Sad chain of events, though.
We hold those who mourn in our thoughts and prayers.
Nico
[quote][b]
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dongirod
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:19 pm Post subject: Crash in Buffalo |
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Nico,
I know very little about that airplane, but I would think it would have some kind of flap asymmetry built into it, everything I flew commercially did. I am just speculating but was thinking that maybe due to ice it stalled out, they are now reporting it basically pancaked in flat not nosed in as previously reported and that the stall warning and stick pusher were going off.
But it does makes us aware of how fragile life is, they are in my prayers.
Don
[quote] ---
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rsrandazzo(at)precisionma
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:06 pm Post subject: Crash in Buffalo |
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Don/Nico-
Assymetry protection is a requirement in transport category airplanes, and the Dash uses a torque tube like most all turboprops to prevent the condition. You’d have to snap that tube or bend the entire wing box to get that condition.
I’ve got a few thousand hours flying turboprops and probably more than 100 approaches into KBUF- about half in crap weather. I’ve never seen ice build more quickly on an airframe in any other location. When the ice overwhelms the heated windshield- it is extreme. I saw this happen twice, both on flights into/out of KBUF- and both for me were in daylight so we were able to rapidly assess the seriousness of our condition. From the media and NTSB reports- it seems this crew saw just such a phenomenon- and was in the process of assessing it when cleared for the approach.
There is a fantastic NASA video that discusses tail-plane stalls on account of icing. (I couldn’t find it in a quick search- I’ll keep looking, as the lessons imparted easily apply to commander pilots…) At our line, we were required to watch this video as part of our training- and it gives some fantastic data on how to detect and manage an incipient tail-plane stall condition on account of ice. One lesson you take away from this video is that if you attempt to treat a tail-plane stall the way you would a wing stall, you will lose control of the airplane.
This has left me wondering if the crew induced a wing stall attempting to combat the tail-plane stall, and in doing so spun the airplane. As you guys no doubt know- there are a couple of places in spin rotation, especially for larger wing aircraft where the body angle will be nearly level.
This crew had very little margin for error- and it seems they were only just becoming aware of the danger when events overcame their best efforts. Makes you shudder to wonder how close some of us have been to this exact scenario but through luck or providence were able to come out the other end.
The Dash is a heck of an ice carrier- so these conditions must have been truly unusual.Â
Be careful out there, guys.
Robert S. Randazzo
N414C
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of dongirod
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 10:18 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Crash in Buffalo
Nico,
I know very little about that airplane, but I would think it would have some kind of flap asymmetry built into it, everything I flew commercially did. I am just speculating but was thinking that maybe due to ice it stalled out, they are now reporting it basically pancaked in flat not nosed in as previously reported and that the stall warning and stick pusher were going off.
But it does makes us aware of how fragile life is, they are in my prayers.
Don
| Quote: |
----- Original Message -----
From: nico css (nico(at)cybersuperstore.com)
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 12:17 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo
We don't know exactly what happened to that flight, but from the information trickling out of the press conferences and the news media, one may conclude that the plane violently rolled over when the flaps were lowered. It appears to be a full roll because the wreck was found in a flat position (belly down) almost in the opposite direction of the flight, which makes one think that it rolled and yawed when the flaps deployed unevenly.
Some years ago I read about the dangers of lowering or raising the flaps during severe ice buildup for this exact reason. Sad chain of events, though.
We hold those who mourn in our thoughts and prayers.
Nico
| Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c |
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[quote][b]
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blorber(at)southwestcirru
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rcdettmer(at)charter.net
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:21 pm Post subject: Crash in Buffalo |
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Wow. That's quite a revealing video. Great learning experience. Thanks
Brock for the link.
Randy Dettmer, AIA
680F/N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
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amg3636(at)hotmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:16 pm Post subject: Crash in Buffalo |
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Very informative!! I sent it to all of my EAA members and pilot friends.
Thanks much C
Roland Gilliam AC 500 6291B
[quote] From: rcdettmer(at)charter.net
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Crash in Buffalo
Date: Sun C 15 Feb 2009 14:20:13 -0800
--> Commander-List message posted by: "Randy Dettmer C AIA" <rcdettmer(at)charter.net>
Wow. That's quite a revealing video. Great learning experience. Thanks
Brock for the link.
Randy Dettmer C AIA
680F/N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo C CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
--
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barry.collman(at)air-brit
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:24 pm Post subject: Crash in Buffalo |
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Hi All,
John Towner is not able to post messages on the chatlist, but can read the postings.
He has said it's OK to pass on the following:
To: All TCFG Commander Pilots
"When we did our TKS icing certification on our Commanders in 1993-94 FAA engineering had us do "tailplane stall analysis". To explain, the FAA has an internal "memorandum" on the subject and basically there have been many "tailplane stall" accidents over the years (the most notable that probably everyone remembers was the ATR commuter accident going into ORD). Basically "KIS" trying to keep it simple what happens with t-tail aircraft when there is just a very small trace of ice on the horizontal tail and the aircraft is descending as it levels off the horizontal tail will stall, the aircraft will pitch down and the pilot/s will pull back and this aggravates the situation and the tail will stall and everyone knows what happens next. Most "tailplane stall" accidents occur when the aircraft is descending and levels off say at the initial approach outside the final approach fix or when the flaps are lowered. In the ORD accident the ATR was descending from 10,000 to 8,000 and lost control of the aircraft in the level off and without speculating this probably happened in Buffalo Friday. After the ORD accident my friends at FAA engineering contacted me they were considering a TKS strip for the horizontal tail, the ATR has a pneumatic boot on the horizontal tail). I remember when I flew our Lear 23 (it did not have ice protection on the horizontal stab and we could get "tailplane stall" in just the right conditions, the later Lears 24/25 series did have heated horizontal stabs) Just to let all of the Commander pilots know when we did "tailplane stall analysis" on the Commander it really did well, the FAA had us put pretend ice shapes on the horizontal tail and then we had to do zero G push overs and we could not get the Commander tail to stall. To summarize the best thing is to stay out of the ice, the worse ice I have ever been in was not forecast, ice on the wing is not a big deal, most aircraft can carry a good amount of wing ice, the killer ice forms on the bottom side of the wing and the real killer ice is the ice that forms on the horizontal tail of a t-tail aircraft. Take care and fly safe."
Thanks John!
Best Regards,
Barry
[quote][b]
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nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:46 pm Post subject: Crash in Buffalo |
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Wouldn't it be safer to land without flaps when in doubt and deal with
decelerating the aircraft once (safely) on the ground?
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bobf(at)feldtman.com
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:21 am Post subject: Crash in Buffalo |
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I'd say yes - it sounds like they had the a/p on - in my turbocommander 681, it once tried to hold me on the ils glideslope when I had the power back and fortunately I killed it with the red button and added power just inside the outer marker (and pushed the nose down- no problem)- no ice issues, but the autopilot is stupid sometimes at the wrong time. nothing wrong with landing hot - I'd rather go off the end at 25 mph than pancake in at stall speed off the end of the runway. I'm not an airline pilot but I get the impression many are trained by the company book "thou shall and shall not".....
bobf
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 6:44 PM, nico css <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com (nico(at)cybersuperstore.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Commander-List message posted by: "nico css" <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com (nico(at)cybersuperstore.com)>
Wouldn't it be safer to land without flaps when in doubt and deal with decelerating the aircraft once (safely) on the ground?
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