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h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:34 am Post subject: Single Bus

I am helping a friend with his electrical system.  The aircraft is a Velocity, fixed landing gear.  The equipment being installed is a pair of GRT EFIS, Garmin GNS430, GTX327 and GMA340 and LED lighting.



Given that the EFIS provides prompt warning of electrical problems, we are wondering if an Essential Bus is really necessary.  With the warning from the EFIS, electrical load can be shed quickly (turn off items and go to hand held radio & GPS, airspeed, alt & internal battery powered attitude).



So we are considering a simple system like Fig 17-6 (or Z11 & Z30) without the Essential Bus features (he needs the weight of the batteries for CG reasons).  Are we missing something here?



Thanks



Jim Butcher

Europa XS 

N241BW

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:07 am Post subject: Single Bus

At 07:34 AM 2/15/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I am helping a friend with his electrical system.  The aircraft is a 

Velocity, fixed landing gear.  The equipment being installed is a 

pair of GRT EFIS, Garmin GNS430, GTX327 and GMA340 and LED lighting.



Given that the EFIS provides prompt warning of electrical problems, 

we are wondering if an Essential Bus is really necessary.  With the 

warning from the EFIS, electrical load can be shed quickly (turn off 

items and go to hand held radio & GPS, airspeed, alt & internal 

battery powered attitude).



So we are considering a simple system like Fig 17-6 (or Z11 & Z30) 

without the Essential Bus features (he needs the weight of the 

batteries for CG reasons).  Are we missing something here?


	


   The E-bus is an ENDURANCE bus that not only

   congregates those items most useful for battery

   only en route continuation of flight that

   also provides dual power pathways. One of those

   pathways does not require a battery contactor

   to be closed (wasted energy equal to about

   3 solid state receivers).



   Z-11 is no heavier than an off-the-ramp

   TC aircraft with an avionics bus. The

   E-bus is always recommended if you plan

   to venture of cross country . . . and

   particularly at night.

        Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

bcollinsmn

Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 23
Location: St. Paul, MN.

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:09 am Post subject: What's the future of avionics?

[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]At 07:34 AM 2/15/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



   Z-11 is no heavier than an off-the-ramp

   TC aircraft with an avionics bus. The

   E-bus is always recommended if you plan

   to venture of cross country . . . and

   particularly at night.

	




A few weeks ago I tried to get some feedback on approaching these things by way of the Vertical Power system. I didn't see any reaction to it.



When I was at SteinAir a month or so ago for a Minnesota Wing (Van's Air Force) meeting, Stein pointed out that the solid state setup is the future of avionics.



But I don't think I've ever seen this discussed on this board (which, by the way, I consider to be THE single most valuable bulletin board for homebuilders anywhere).



It would be possible -- from what I can gather -- to set up a good backup system, but not without circuit breakers/fuses/switches, which defeats the purpose of the VP system.



I'm just curious how you see this approach to aircraft wiring fitting into some of the excellent advice you provide wrt avionics and electrical system infrastructure?

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV-7A - Running wires
http://rvbuildershotline.com
Day job: http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/

cjay

Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 53

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: What's the future of avionics?

[quote="bcollinsmn"] 	  nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: 	
		  At 07:34 AM 2/15/2009, you wrote:



A few weeks ago I tried to get some feedback on approaching these things by way of the Vertical Power system. I didn't see any reaction to it.



When I was at SteinAir a month or so ago for a Minnesota Wing (Van's Air Force) meeting, Stein pointed out that the solid state setup is the future of avionics.



But I don't think I've ever seen this discussed on this board (which, by the way, I consider to be THE single most valuable bulletin board for homebuilders anywhere).



It would be possible -- from what I can gather -- to set up a good backup system, but not without circuit breakers/fuses/switches, which defeats the purpose of the VP system.



I'm just curious how you see this approach to aircraft wiring fitting into some of the excellent advice you provide wrt avionics and electrical system infrastructure? 	




Bob,



VP recommends an endurance bus as well, same concept as outlined in Z11.  Nothing magical about VP, it just replaces the breakers/fuses/switches with solid state technology.  I think a lot of people are going to be cautious for awhile because everthing flows through a self contained box.  This simplifies design and installation; but a bit of faith is required until people start getting comfortable with the concept.  I think they've got a good track record so far.  



cjay

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:41 pm Post subject: Single Bus

Are you sure, cjay?  There is a "get home" backup system for the VP-100 and

VP-200



http://verticalpower.com/docs/Backup_Wiring.pdf



But Marc says he's not a fan of it because it introduces several failure

points. And, of course, the VP-200 (and I think the VP-100, too) has its

load-shedding ability configured into the unit itself.



I have a VP-50, one alternator setup. I was trying to figure out how to get

the same benefits that the system in Z-11 affords, but the only system I

could come up with involved a second VP-50 and/or installing a bunch of

CBs/fuses/switches which, as I said, doesn't make much sense because it

introduces components that the VP system should eliminate.



I've just finished the load planning analysis for the VP system. I'm just a

go-up-and-look-down VFR pilot so we're not talking about the kind of

instrument/night flying that Bob mentions in his response to Jim's very

pertinent question. My backup is a hand-held radio. The Dynon has an

internal backup battery and I'm using an AirGizmo-docked GPS which also has

a battery.



I was just curious how folks see electrical systems architecture evolving in

consideration of this.



BTW, I'm very pleased with the people at VP and am very excited to be

working with their product.



An RV-flying pal has three VP-200s in his new RV-10.



--

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

marcausman

Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 70

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Single Bus

Well, first let me say the VP systems do a lot more than just replace switches and breakers. The more advanced the system, the "more" it does. In a nutshell, you get more electrical system features for simpler wiring. Lots of details on our web site so I won't go into it here.



As far as backups, there are multiple levels of backups built into the system. Your backup strategy depends on your mission. A basic VFR aircraft really doesn't need backups, especially if you carry a hand held radio and have an EFIS with backup battery. 



However, more advanced aircraft usually incorporate multiple attitude sources, multiple radios, etc. Redundancy or backups in the core electrical system is no different. 



We always recommend to customers to install backups for CRITICAL systems (typically EFIS/attitude source, but is determined by the builder) so the pilot can continue safely while in flight. The backup may be an internal battery, or it may be a backup circuit wired directly to the battery bus. This methodology has the VP system as the primary switching system, and a separate and different system to provide backup power to critical avionics. A example for comparison might be having your EFIS as the primary attitude source, and an electric gyro as a backup. This is very common and accepted practice and is the same for the VP system.

_________________
Marc Ausman
http://www.verticalpower.com "Move up to a modern electrical system"
RV-7 IO-390 Flying

marcausman

Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 70

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:47 am Post subject: Re: What's the future of avionics?

 	  cjay wrote: 	
		  I think a lot of people are going to be cautious for awhile because everthing flows through a self contained box.  This simplifies design and installation; but a bit of faith is required until people start getting comfortable with the concept.  I think they've got a good track record so far.  



cjay 	




We get a lot of calls from people who think there should be no single points of failure anywhere on the aircraft. Actually, there are many single points of failure that will keep you from flying or make you want to land the plane soon (the engine being the most obvious). 



From the point of view of your example, the VP is no different than the graphical engine monitors that everyone installs today. If it fails, you are not going flying. You don't just lose one instrument, like you did with steam gages, you lose them all.  But the reduced weight, simplified installation, better alarming, higher reliability etc. make that a compelling trade-off and people elect to go with the newer digital systems. 



The VP is better in this regard, in that you CAN wire up backups to maintain safety in case of failure.



So, would you go flying if any of these failed on the ground:

- graphical engine monitor

- flap motor stuck down

- single magneto or EI

- prop governor

- brake system

- starter contactor

- battery contacator

- starter motor



Do you have backups for ANY of these installed in the plane?



Just some things to ponder when thinking about new technology.   These bridges have been crossed before and you decide whether steam gages/VORs or EFIS/GPS/graphical engine monitors/Vertical Power is the way to go.

_________________
Marc Ausman
http://www.verticalpower.com "Move up to a modern electrical system"
RV-7 IO-390 Flying

l_luv2_fly(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:37 pm Post subject: Single Bus

Hi Jim,



No doubt by now you have seen a number of posts about the advantage of dual path ways that the eBuss configuration offers.  As you probably recall I took a lightening hit in my Europa, and among the many electrical things that died in the next few milliseconds was the main contactor.



I can't can't tell you how happy I was when I reached over to that eBuss switch, turned it on and a few essential things sprung into life.



Cheers,  Paul



           [quote][b]

cjay

Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 53

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:20 am Post subject: Re: Single Bus

 	  marcausman wrote: 	
		  Well, first let me say the VP systems do a lot more than just replace switches and breakers. The more advanced the system, the "more" it does. In a nutshell, you get more electrical system features for simpler wiring. Lots of details on our web site so I won't go into it here.



As far as backups, there are multiple levels of backups built into the system. Your backup strategy depends on your mission. A basic VFR aircraft really doesn't need backups, especially if you carry a hand held radio and have an EFIS with backup battery. 



However, more advanced aircraft usually incorporate multiple attitude sources, multiple radios, etc. Redundancy or backups in the core electrical system is no different. 



We always recommend to customers to install backups for CRITICAL systems (typically EFIS/attitude source, but is determined by the builder) so the pilot can continue safely while in flight. The backup may be an internal battery, or it may be a backup circuit wired directly to the battery bus. This methodology has the VP system as the primary switching system, and a separate and different system to provide backup power to critical avionics. A example for comparison might be having your EFIS as the primary attitude source, and an electric gyro as a backup. This is very common and accepted practice and is the same for the VP system. 	




Marc,



I didn't mean to undervalue VP, I was trying to put it in perspective.  At least at its core it is the solid state devices, but certainly one of your big advantages is once you've gone digital, you've got a vast new potential in software control.  Now we get to set our switches and breaker settings like programming our VCR... well maybe that's not a good analogy, I still can't figure how do do mine right...



cjay

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:57 am Post subject: Single Bus

Yes that was bizarre..I remember reading the write  up.

  

 As one with a totally electrically dependant airplane  (albeit a metal airplane) with electric fuel pumps only and dual electronic  ignitions who flys in IMC..I REALLY hope it never happens to  me..

  

 Cheers

  

 Frank

  

 Do not archive



   From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul  McAllister

Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 4:35 PM

To:  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Single  Bus

 

            Hi Jim,



No        doubt by now you have seen a number of posts about the advantage of dual        path ways that the eBuss configuration offers.  As you probably        recall I took a lightening hit in my Europa, and among the many electrical        things that died in the next few milliseconds was the main        contactor.



I can't can't tell you how happy I was when I reached        over to that eBuss switch, turned it on and a few essential things sprung        into life.



Cheers,  Paul



[quote]



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[b]

longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:54 am Post subject: Single Bus

Marc,



Thanks for adding the better price point VP-50. That helps fill a bigger

gap. At $6k, I'll rather buy lots of fancy switches and wire, but at

$1500 it may have a chance.



Actually I've already bought lots of switches and wire, so perhaps at

upgrade time.



Do Not Archive.

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