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System Objectives

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westexflyboy

Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Presidio, TX

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:01 pm Post subject: System Objectives

I have three desired objectives for my RV-10's with dual electronic ignition:



1.  Reliability

2.  Low pilot workload to manage failures

3.  Ability to use radios and EFIS prior to starting the engine (and leave them on during engine start)



Z-14 architecture appears to meet objectives one and two.  Z-14 might meet the third objective if I use the main battery to start the engine, the aux battery to power the radios and displays, and I start the engine with the crossfeed contactor open.



Perhaps operating instructions for Z-14 would help - Where can I find those?

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_________________
Chase Snodgrass
Presidio, Texas
www.flybigbend.com
Simultaneous RV-10 twins under construction

andrewbutler(at)ireland.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:01 am Post subject: System Objectives

Hello Chase,



On point three, if you bought an EFIS with an internal battery (AFS for example) and installed one or two P-MAGs you could simplify your system significantly and go for a Z13/8 type architecture,  With regards leaving the radio on during start, there has been reams of debate on this site in the recent past regarding the real and present or prehistoric need for the "Avionics" switch. Assuming you ditch the Avionics switch and assuming you always maintain your battery properly, will your radio have a tendency to go offline during start? Anyone?



I too liked the idea of Z14 for bullet proof "reliability", but eventually figured it was overkill, so I modified my design, removed the cross over switch etc., replaced the 20Amp Alt with the 8 and eventually ended up with the Z13/8 architecture albeit with a second battery latched on to power my Dual Plasma III. Then I switched to P-Mag/E-MAg ignition, wired up two additional switches (one each for ignition power, and one each for ignition spark) and ditched the 2nd battery.............. All very neat and tidy now and much simpler (and lighter) than the Z14.



Points 1 and 2 are delivered in full by Z13/8.



I can send you the evolution of my diagrams if you wish.



Andrew.

RV7100

Galway, Ireland

Wiring!

--

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rnewman(at)tcwtech.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:11 am Post subject: System Objectives

Chase,    I have similar objectives for our RV-10.   To satisfy requirement 

#3 on you list we developed a product called Intelligent Power Stabilizer. 

Its available in a 4 amp and 8 amp version and it keeps your EFIS or GPS or 

Engine Monitor up and running during engine start without the requirement 

for an auxiliary battery.    All the details on this and our other products 

are available at  www.tcwtech.com    Notably, Garmin has just finished 

testing this series of our products and we are presently working together on 

the wiring diagrams for use of IPS products with the Garmin 900x  &  530/430 

series of products.

Best regards,

Bob Newman

TCW Technologies, LLC.



support(at)tcwtech.com



---

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westexflyboy

Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Presidio, TX

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:46 am Post subject: Re: System Objectives

 	  rnewman(at)tcwtech.com wrote: 	
		  we are presently working together on 

the wiring diagrams for use of IPS products with the Garmin 900x  &  530/430 series of products. 	




Bob, are you saying the ICP is ready for Garmin transceivers as is, or are you working on a modified version?

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_________________
Chase Snodgrass
Presidio, Texas
www.flybigbend.com
Simultaneous RV-10 twins under construction

rnewman(at)tcwtech.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:07 am Post subject: System Objectives

Chase,



Our IPS system is done and fully compatable with the Garmin series of 

products.   We are now in the process of preparing the documentation 

including updated instructions sheets and application notes showing the 

installation of various Garmin products being powered through an IPS system.



Both IPS products are in stock.

Best regards,

Bob Newman

TCW Technologies, LLC.



---

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:46 pm Post subject: System Objectives

At 12:01 AM 2/16/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<airplanedriver(at)gmail.com>



I have three desired objectives for my RV-10's with dual electronic ignition:



1.  Reliability

2.  Low pilot workload to manage failures

3.  Ability to use radios and EFIS prior to starting the engine (and 

leave them on during engine start)



Z-14 architecture appears to meet objectives one and two.  Z-14 

might meet the third objective if I use the main battery to start 

the engine, the aux battery to power the radios and displays, and I 

start the engine with the crossfeed contactor open.



Perhaps operating instructions for Z-14 would help - Where can I find those?


	


   Consider Z-13/8 with an aux battery added per

   Z-30 or Z-35 (leaving aux battery contactor open

   during cranking).



   Alternatively, you can do Z-10/8 (Z-13/8 with

   brown-out protection battery). All these architectures

   are shown in Appendix Z, Revision 12A to the 'Connection

   found at:



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Rev12A/AppZ_Rev12A.pdf



   Someplace in the piles of things-to-do or in-

   process is a set of checklists for all the Z-Figures.

   I'll see if I can find it an perhaps finish it up.

        Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

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westexflyboy

Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Presidio, TX

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:38 am Post subject: Re: System Objectives

We're planning to use dual LSE Plasma III's and all glass panels, which is why we're leaning toward Z-14.   Best I can tell P-mags are not available for the six cylinder Lycoming. (?)



I see my options as follows:  install a small battery behind the panel strictly for pre-start ops, or install the IPS device suggested by Bob Newman.



Bob, I am eager to see those checklists.

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_________________
Chase Snodgrass
Presidio, Texas
www.flybigbend.com
Simultaneous RV-10 twins under construction

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:50 am Post subject: System Objectives

Chase,



I run a dual LSE Plasma III and have an all glass panel.  I too used a  

version of the Z-14   .  It's good news that the P-mags are not  

available for the 6's, they suck.  I just got my 11th P-mag failure in  

the field.  The out come was good. Plane OK, pilot ok.  Engine not so  

ok.  Timing runaway, CHT's over 600 deg for aprox. 5 minutes on what  

was a new engine (not anymore).  The pilot had problems with isolating  

the mags because of a faulty key switch and was forced to land.  I  

have seen enough failures to say no to anyone who wants to use this  

product, it could cost you your life.  I know I'll here the blind  

followers that will follow the company and its product into the dirt,  

but I care about saving life.  Most builders don't understand the  

implications of an extremely advanced timing point.  It would be  

better if the ignition system would just shut off.  When the timing go  

out of range to the advanced side, it's a single point failure!  If  

you have your head about you, you may be able to isolate the problem  

and secure the faulted system.  If you don't you may end up landing  

out.  Like my last failure, it may be dark.  Fortunately he had an  

airport nearby.  The funny part (sarcasm), this pilot has seen several  

failures with his P-mags and has fallen into the trap of just changing  

them out.  Sooner or later you run out of rope and fate becomes the  

hunter.  If he chooses to stay with the product one has to wonder what  

will happen next.  Good luck to all you P-mag drivers, may fate be  

your friend.



I know I got a bit off point, but I have taken so much grief from the  

P-mag Gestapo that I had to say something.



Back on point, you may find that the second battery will be helpful  

for battery starts with fuel injection systems on hot summer days.  

Especially if you have  dual electronic ignitions installed.



Mike Larkin



Larkin Aviation Consulting



On Feb 17, 2009, at 11:38 AM, westexflyboy wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 >



 We're planning to use dual LSE Plasma III's and all glass panels,  

 which is why we're leaning toward Z-14.   Best I can tell P-mags are  

 not available for the six cylinder Lycoming. (?)



 I see my options as follows:  install a small battery behind the  

 panel strictly for pre-start ops, or install the IPS device  

 suggested by Bob Newman.



 Bob, I am eager to see those checklists.



 --------

 Chase Snodgrass

 Presidio, Texas

 www.flybigbend.com

 Simultaneous RV-10 twins under construction





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