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Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy
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partner14



Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Granbury Texas

PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:09 pm    Post subject: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy Reply with quote

You're right on... when you start adding it up... wow..... Then they wonder why the number of new pilots is down. With 10 hours of dual = $1,500, 10 hours of instruments = $1,500, transportation and such getting there $500, 40 hours for a test pilot = $4,000, Fuel for the 40= $1,500.... total $9,000.... then $6,000 for insurance. $15,000 before getting in the airplane. Not sure what I'll do.
Don

--- On Wed, 2/18/09, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> wrote:

[quote]From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com>
Subject: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 8:41 PM

[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> I hear you Don, that's why I brought it up. It stinks to be blind sided by such financial news. I know when I finished my RV-10, I had maybe $1,000 to my name. I was actually worried that I may not be able to earn fast enough to pay for the fuel to fly it off in a reasonable amount of time. Think about it, the flyoff alone will cost $1500-3000 in fuel. And after not even thinking about it through the build, you call your insurance guy up a month before you fly and get a quote and find out that your insurance is going to run you maybe a minimum of $2500 (roughly) or as much as $6,000 (if you have low time), before you can even take off for your first flight. Oh, and then you need that transition training...save a $500-1000 or more for that, because you're going to pay for a plane, an instructor, and the travel to get you there if you need to fly with the common 2 Transition trainers. It all adds up. That's why I figured I'd use my wife's example as an illustration. It gives people a heads up for what to plan for. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Don McDonald wrote: > Tim, normally I am very appreciative for all of your write ups and comments.... that being said, if you look down at your last paragraph below, you wrote "It's really going to be interesting as some low-time pilots start shopping for insurance. So far most people have > at least had a couple hundred hours of time". My objection is you using the word "interesting". It's not at all interesting, it's a total pain in the ass. These insurance companies have gone bonkers. They wanted me to have 10 hours dual with CFI doing a specific number of takeoffs and landings.... that was fine, then, however, they wanted another 10 hours of dual instruments.... that wasn't toooo bad either, but the kicker was; if the 40 hours were not yet flown off the plane, I must hire a test pilot to fly them off...... THEN,,,, they would insure me for the wonderful cost of almost $6,000 per year. And this was the only company I found that would even provide a quote!!!! > Just a heads up for the rest of you out there with little or no time. > Just kiddin' ya Tim. > Don McDonald > #40636 > BTW - my 10 is going to roll onto the scales on Sat. > > > --- On *Wed, 2/18/09, Tim Olson /<Tim(at)MyRV10.com>/* wrote: > > From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> > Subject: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on > the policy > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 1:41 PM > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> > > Eric, > > I wouldn't think that the -10 would be harder to fly...probably > easier. But I think the higher hull value combined with 260HP > is what just kills the RV-10 in the insurance market. I just > had another couple emails with the insurance agent, and it sounds > like there may just be one company that would at least LOOK > at covering my wife as a student pilot...with no guarantee that > they would actually cover her. No idea on rates but likely > real high...high enough that I may as well rent a plane > for training. And, they found one company that would cover a > 100 hour PVT pilot with a premium that may be maybe $1200-2000 > additional cost from what my insurance is right now ($2700-2850). > > I know that lots of people will try to compare "I paid this > in my RV-6/7/8/9" but I really don't think that there is going > to be any direct comparison....not with 4 seats compared to 2. > That's probably the biggest killer. > > I'm planning to wait now until she has a pilot certificate and > then see if they'll add her as a named pilot with the clause > that in order to be covered for XXX hours (figure at least > 100 hours), she would be required to have me as a co-pilot. > You'd think that might give the company some warm fuzzies. > > It's really going to be interesting as some low-time pilots > start shopping for insurance. So far most people have > at least had a couple hundred hours of time. > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying > do not archive > > > Eric Ekberg wrote: > > I have my RV-7A insured through Traver's. I insured it as a student > pilot with no problems (except that my premium was $3k for $105k hull); only > requirement was 10 hours dual before solo. I wouldn't think a -10 would be > any more difficult (but what do I know?). I would try a different company. > > > Eric > > do not archive > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 5:02 PM, Robin Marks <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com > <mailto:robin1(at)mrmoisture.com>> wrote: > > > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Robin Marks" > > <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com <mailto:robin1(at)mrmoisture.com>> > > > Tim, > > I have a business partner that came from a flying family (8 > > pilots) and he wanted to teach his two kids (16 & 1Cool to fly so I > > purchased a cherry Cessna 150/150 (hp) for something like $17K. We > went > > through the thing top to bottom to make sure it was 100% before he > > trained both his kids to the best of his ability prior to handing them > > off to a CFI for "real" training. By then they were > extremely > > comfortable with the principles of flight and the rest of their > > certification went well. I then let a number of other friends and > > associated train in the plane. Insurance and flight operations have > been > > really cheap and a lot of people have benefited from this purchase. I > > believe I bought the plane well and normally would not expect to lose > > too much when it's time to sell (current market conditions > excluded). > > While this may not be a viable route for most people maybe a multi > > person partnership on a trainer could be a viable way to fly in your > own > > plane and build a lot of hours w/o paying costly rental fees or > training > > in too much plane whose insurance costs match the total ownership > costs > > of a trainer. > > > Robin > > STILL in paint > > Do Not Archive > > > --


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Don A. McDonald
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Tim Olson



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:36 pm    Post subject: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy Reply with quote

You wouldn't need to spend $4,000 to get a person to be your
test pilot, if you do a good job building. I bet you can
find some help for free.

One of the guys I work with who is planning to take his private
pilot course is all gung-ho on buying a plane or building. I
told him to put the reigns on it a bit...before he launches
out building a family 4-place, he will do himself a favor by
buying a <$50,000 4 seater first. Our Sundowner was under
$50k and it brought lots of fun. With a $50K hull value,
insurance was $900-1100, and the $1,100 was the cost during
the time my father learned to fly in it. He bought it to
learn in. It worked out real well, and gave an easy entry
into the world of flying for a few years. Plus, it gave
us something to fly while I built the RV-10. You may
actually be well off to do what Robin talked about.... buy
a nice Cessna 150 and just start flying a ton this year.
Get your hours up there, maybe 100 hours or so. The 150
will be cheap to run. At that point, you go get checked
out and rent a HP plane, or get some retract time just for
kicks for 10 hours or so. That will give you more of
a taste for slippery planes. THEN you should have a much
easier time getting affordable insurance for your RV-10,
and you may actually save so much that it would pay for
a bunch of those flight hours.

I had many great learning experiences in a rented Beech
Sierra (retract + 200hp) early on, too. I found it was
surprisingly much easier to get behind the airplane in that
plane than it was the Cardinals and 172's that I had been
flying. It was good eye opening time when you're a low-time
pilot. It also prepared me for flying the RV-10 a little.

I have had my wife nearly land the RV-10 on her own
before. She does a fair job of getting everything to
go together. Despite what some people say though, I really
don't think it's a great plane to start out in. When she
hits the power to go around, it's a real handful, especially
when you have the electric trim set for landing config
with full flaps. It takes off on a touch-n-go almost
immediately, accelerates VERY fast, and pitches up pretty
steep, forcing you to really get those flaps retracted and
that trim moving down. It was eye opening for me to watch
her, as I realized how much harder and faster everything
was for a new student, because you can really get a ton
coming at you in a short time. There really IS something
to be said for learning in an "old" plane with manual
trim, no EFIS, and much lower power. I think she'll actually
do great in a C150. Even the landing speed would be lower
and more comfortable, making it much easier. The problem
is, most comments you get from RV builders will be "Oh, it's
really easy to fly...I wouldn't worry about training in it."
But, by the time that person has built their RV and is giving
the advice, they have long since forgotten exactly how
those first 40 hours were for them. The -10 definitely
is capable of being one of the easiest landing planes
there is....I have a very high percentage of what I feel are
great landings in it...compared to how other planes have
been for me. But, there is so much power and so many
cool gizmos like electric flaps, trim, and gadgets that
we have in our planes that it may not be best for starting
training in. Or at least, put 20 hours in a spam can before
jumping into the RV-10...even that would help.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Don McDonald wrote:
[quote] You're right on... when you start adding it up... wow..... Then they
wonder why the number of new pilots is down. With 10 hours of dual =
$1,500, 10 hours of instruments = $1,500, transportation and such
getting there $500, 40 hours for a test pilot = $4,000, Fuel for the 40=
$1,500.... total $9,000.... then $6,000 for insurance. $15,000 before
getting in the airplane. Not sure what I'll do.
Don

--- On *Wed, 2/18/09, Tim Olson /<Tim(at)myrv10.com>/* wrote:

From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com>
Subject: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on
the policy
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 8:41 PM



I hear you Don, that's why I brought it up. It stinks to be
blind sided by such financial news. I know when I finished
my RV-10, I had maybe $1,000 to my name. I was actually
worried that I may not be able to earn fast enough to pay
for the fuel to fly it off in a reasonable amount of time.
Think about it, the flyoff alone will cost $1500-3000 in
fuel. And after not even thinking about it through the build,
you call your insurance guy up a month before you fly and
get a quote and find out that your insurance is going to
run you maybe a minimum of $2500 (roughly) or as much as
$6,000 (if you have low time), before you can even take off
for your first flight. Oh, and then you need that transition
training...save a $500-1000 or more for that, because you're
going to pay for a plane, an instructor, and the travel to
get you there if you need to fly with the common 2 Transition
trainers. It all adds up. That's why I figured I'd use my
wife's example as an illustration. It gives people a heads up
for what to plan for.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive


Don McDonald wrote:
> Tim, normally I am very appreciative for all of your write ups and
comments.... that being said, if you look down at your last paragraph below, you
wrote "It's really going to be interesting as some low-time pilots
start shopping for insurance. So far most people have
> at least had a couple hundred hours of time". My objection is you
using the word "interesting". It's not at all interesting,
it's a total pain in the ass. These insurance companies have gone bonkers.
They wanted me to have 10 hours dual with CFI doing a specific number of
takeoffs and landings.... that was fine, then, however, they wanted another 10
hours of dual instruments.... that wasn't toooo bad either, but the kicker
was; if the 40 hours were not yet flown off the plane, I must hire a test pilot
to fly them off...... THEN,,,, they would insure me for the wonderful cost of
almost $6,000 per year. And this was the only company I found that would even
provide a quote!!!!
> Just a heads up for the rest of you out there with little or no time.
> Just kiddin' ya Tim.
> Don McDonald
> #40636
> BTW - my 10 is going to roll onto the scales on Sat.
>
>
> --- On *Wed, 2/18/09, Tim Olson /<Tim(at)MyRV10.com>/* wrote:
>
> From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
> Subject: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on
> the policy
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 1:41 PM
>
>
>
> Eric,
>
> I wouldn't think that the -10 would be harder to fly...probably
> easier. But I think the higher hull value combined with 260HP
> is what just kills the RV-10 in the insurance market. I just
> had another couple emails with the insurance agent, and it sounds
> like there may just be one company that would at least LOOK
> at covering my wife as a student pilot...with no guarantee that
> they would actually cover her. No idea on rates but likely
> real high...high enough that I may as well rent a plane
> for training. And, they found one company that would cover a
> 100 hour PVT pilot with a premium that may be maybe $1200-2000
> additional cost from what my insurance is right now ($2700-2850).
>
> I know that lots of people will try to compare "I paid this
> in my RV-6/7/8/9" but I really don't think that there is
going
> to be any direct comparison....not with 4 seats compared to 2.
> That's probably the biggest killer.
>
> I'm planning to wait now until she has a pilot certificate and
> then see if they'll add her as a named pilot with the clause
> that in order to be covered for XXX hours (figure at least
> 100 hours), she would be required to have me as a co-pilot.
> You'd think that might give the company some warm fuzzies.
>
> It's really going to be interesting as some low-time pilots
> start shopping for insurance. So far most people have
> at least had a couple hundred hours of time.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
> Eric Ekberg wrote:
> > I have my RV-7A insured through Traver's. I insured it as a
student
> pilot with no problems (except that my premium was $3k for $105k
hull); only
> requirement was 10 hours dual before solo. I wouldn't think a -10
would be
> any more difficult (but what do I know?). I would try a different
company.
> > > Eric
> > do not archive
> > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 5:02 PM, Robin Marks
<robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
> <mailto:robin1(at)mrmoisture.com>> wrote:
> > >
Marks"
> > <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
<mailto:robin1(at)mrmoisture.com>>
> > > Tim,
> > I have a business partner that came from a flying
family (8
> > pilots) and he wanted to teach his two kids (16 & 1Cool to
fly so I
> > purchased a cherry Cessna 150/150 (hp) for something like
$17K. We
> went
> > through the thing top to bottom to make sure it was 100%
before he
> > trained both his kids to the best of his ability prior to
handing them
> > off to a CFI for "real" training. By then they were
> extremely
> > comfortable with the principles of flight and the rest of
their
> > certification went well. I then let a number of other friends
and
> > associated train in the plane. Insurance and flight
operations have
> been
> > really cheap and a lot of people have benefited from this
purchase. I
> > believe I bought the plane well and normally would not expect
to lose
> > too much when it's time to sell (current market
conditions
> excluded).
> > While this may not be a viable route for most people maybe a
multi
> > person partnership on a trainer could be a viable way to fly
in your
> own
> > plane and build a lot of hours w/o paying costly rental fees
or
> training
> > in too much plane whose insurance costs match the total
ownership
> costs
> > of a trainer.
> > > Robin
> > STILL in paint
> > Do Not Archive
> > > --


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robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:13 am    Post subject: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy Reply with quote

Tim,
You had me till the word Sundowner.... But I like your thinking
with MANY great points.
How about building a 10 and 12 at the same time. Finish the 12
quickly for something to fly and build hours while you work on the -10.
I can see some peoples living rooms now. Does this rivet to the -12 or
screw to the -10?
If we are talking about starter planes one expects OLD starter
planes. Avoid retrace if at all possible. The combination of low Hp and
extra weight and complexity make them less of a "value proposition."
(Heck the donuts in the Sundowner were bad enough). I remember hearing
on 3 different occasions rental Triple 9 Juliette call for the tower to
visual their landing gear. The goal is comfortable, affordable,
utilitarian and most of all able to be resold without major repairs. Buy
a starter plane right and it can dare I say it... be economical. Sadly I
bet there are some fire sales coming this summer.
Regarding costs for the fly off. We chased (R&D) temperature
issues for all 40 hours. That meant running very rich for 30+ hours
right about the time fuel prices were peaking. Can you say ouch? Some
smart fueling kept our average cost/gallon down but it was definitely a
noticeable line item. Try to get the airport with the lowest fuel rate
covered in your designated area.
Welcome to the recent new builders, lurkers and those high
number kits.
Robin



--


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robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:03 am    Post subject: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy Reply with quote

Retract, not Retrace. It's late.

Robin
Do Not Archive

--


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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:24 am    Post subject: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy Reply with quote

Is it a catastrophe or just a crisis?. Perhaps we can petition our elected representatives for some of the bailout money.

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don McDonald
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:08 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy

You're right on... when you start adding it up... wow..... Then they wonder why the number of new pilots is down. With 10 hours of dual = $1,500, 10 hours of instruments = $1,500, transportation and such getting there $500, 40 hours for a test pilot = $4,000, Fuel for the 40= $1,500.... total $9,000.... then $6,000 for insurance. $15,000 before getting in the airplane. Not sure what I'll do.
Don

--- On Wed, 2/18/09, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> wrote:

[quote]From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com>
Subject: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 8:41 PM

[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> I hear you Don, that's why I brought it up. It stinks to be blind sided by such financial news. I know when I finished my RV-10, I had maybe $1,000 to my name. I was actually worried that I may not be able to earn fast enough to pay for the fuel to fly it off in a reasonable amount of time. Think about it, the flyoff alone will cost $1500-3000 in fuel. And after not even thinking about it through the build, you call your insurance guy up a month before you fly and get a quote and find out that your insurance is going to run you maybe a minimum of $2500 (roughly) or as much as $6,000 (if you have low time), before you can even take off for your first flight. Oh, and then you need that transition training...save a $500-1000 or more for that, because you're going to pay for a plane, an instructor, and the travel to get you there if you need to fly with the common 2 Transition trainers. It all adds up. That's why I figured I'd use my wife's example as an illustration. It gives people a heads up for what to plan for. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Don McDonald wrote: > Tim, normally I am very appreciative for all of your write ups and comments.... that being said, if you look down at your last paragraph below, you wrote "It's really going to be interesting as some low-time pilots start shopping for insurance. So far most people have > at least had a couple hundred hours of time". My objection is you using the word "interesting". It's not at all interesting, it's a total pain in the ass. These insurance companies have gone bonkers. They wanted me to have 10 hours dual with CFI doing a specific number of takeoffs and landings.... that was fine, then, however, they wanted another 10 hours of dual instruments.... that wasn't toooo bad either, but the kicker was; if the 40 hours were not yet flown off the plane, I must hire a test pilot to fly them off...... THEN,,,, they would insure me for the wonderful cost of almost $6,000 per year. And this was the only company I found that would even provide a quote!!!! > Just a heads up for the rest of you out there with little or no time. > Just kiddin' ya Tim. > Don McDonald > #40636 > BTW - my 10 is going to roll onto the scales on Sat. > > > --- On *Wed, 2/18/09, Tim Olson /<Tim(at)MyRV10.com>/* wrote: > > From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> > Subject: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on > the policy > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 1:41 PM > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> > > Eric, > > I wouldn't think that the -10 would be harder to fly...probably > easier. But I think the higher hull value combined with 260HP > is what just kills the RV-10 in the insurance market. I just > had another couple emails with the insurance agent, and it sounds > like there may just be one company that would at least LOOK > at covering my wife as a student pilot...with no guarantee that > they would actually cover her. No idea on rates but likely > real high...high enough that I may as well rent a plane > for training. And, they found one company that would cover a > 100 hour PVT pilot with a premium that may be maybe $1200-2000 > additional cost from what my insurance is right now ($2700-2850). > > I know that lots of people will try to compare "I paid this > in my RV-6/7/8/9" but I really don't think that there is going > to be any direct comparison....not with 4 seats compared to 2. > That's probably the biggest killer. > > I'm planning to wait now until she has a pilot certificate and > then see if they'll add her as a named pilot with the clause > that in order to be covered for XXX hours (figure at least > 100 hours), she would be required to have me as a co-pilot. > You'd think that might give the company some warm fuzzies. > > It's really going to be interesting as some low-time pilots > start shopping for insurance. So far most people have > at least had a couple hundred hours of time. > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying > do not archive > > > Eric Ekberg wrote: > > I have my RV-7A insured through Traver's. I insured it as a student > pilot with no problems (except that my premium was $3k for $105k hull); only > requirement was 10 hours dual before solo. I wouldn't think a -10 would be > any more difficult (but what do I know?). I would try a different company. > > > Eric > > do not archive > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 5:02 PM, Robin Marks <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com > <mailto:robin1(at)mrmoisture.com>> wrote: > > > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Robin Marks" > > <robin1(at)mrmoisture.com <mailto:robin1(at)mrmoisture.com>> > > > Tim, > > I have a business partner that came from a flying family (8 > > pilots) and he wanted to teach his two kids (16 & 1Cool to fly so I > > purchased a cherry Cessna 150/150 (hp) for something like $17K. We > went > > through the thing top to bottom to make sure it was 100% before he > > trained both his kids to the best of his ability prior to handing them > > off to a CFI for "real" training. By then they were > extremely > > comfortable with the principles of flight and the rest of their > > certification went well. I then let a number of other friends and > > associated train in the plane. Insurance and flight operations have > been > > really cheap and a lot of people have benefited from this purchase. I > > believe I bought the plane well and normally would not expect to lose > > too much when it's time to sell (current market conditions > excluded). > > While this may not be a viable route for most people maybe a multi > > person partnership on a trainer could be a viable way to fly in your > own > > plane and build a lot of hours w/o paying costly rental fees or > training > > in too much plane whose insurance costs match the total ownership > costs > > of a trainer. > > > Robin > > STILL in paint > > Do Not Archive > > > --


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doctornigel



Joined: 18 Feb 2009
Posts: 11
Location: Indian Harbour Beach, FL

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:29 am    Post subject: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy Reply with quote

Like I said get your CFI for your wife to build time sitting next to you, that is if you don't need the hours to reduce your insurance. I wouldn't suggest that you give your wife private pilot instruction. Most couple's dynamics couldn't handle that and the cost of divorce is WAY more than the cost of building time. As for the HP endorsement, I always wondered why they had it until I went to FCI in Pheonix for upset/spin training. At altitude my instructor trimmed us for landing config in an Extra300 and then gave me the stick and asked me to firewall the throttle. Amazing that we were upside-down within a one revolution of the prop. HP endorsement is a hand me down from military training where after private pilot and T-41 training (C172) the next step was a 300-450HP P-force beast. They had to set the bar somewhere and it was at 200HP. I did my RV-10 time already with Alex even though I'm 2 years from flying. I plan on doing some more time right before I'm done building. I reluctantly agreed to let a test pilot do first flight, but I still have time to wiggle outta that promise, might cost me some jewelry though.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:02 am    Post subject: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy Reply with quote

Do the first flight if you have the experience. My wife wanted me to have
someone else fly first but try as I would I could not get another test
pilot insured unless I paid to send him to TX or OR for transition training.
My only advice would be to get a standing start takeoff with the training.
My one hour with Alex had him making the only standing start takeoff. I had
flown my Glastar into his airpark where winds were 40 degree crosswind at
15G27. So my first flight push of the power lever forward completely was an
eye opener. And yes I am giving my wife pinch hitter training. She
insisted.

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tomhanaway



Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Murphy, NC

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:16 am    Post subject: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy Reply with quote

I'm a very low time pilot so definitely fall in this category.
Is insurance somehow mandatory??
I understand liability issues. I also understand that a hangar lease may require insurance.

Other than that, and avoiding philosophical discussion, if I'm willing to take the risk as to physical damage to myself, the plane and potential liability exposure to others for my actions,, is insurance mandatory?? Equally, I'm fully aware of an obligation to advise any passenger of the fact that there's no direct insurance coverage.

Thanks,
Tom H.


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Deems Davis



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:35 am    Post subject: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy Reply with quote

Insurance companies are regulated and so are their investments, While
there is no question that they do invest in equities, they are limited
to a small portion of their reserves (assets) which must be invested in
more 'secure' instruments.

Deems

ricksked(at)embarqmail.com wrote:
[quote]

And another reason the "Insurance Company" is doing this...Capital..
Lest we forget the current economic times...Insurance investments have in the past been pretty stable...but insurance companies relay on investments to grow capital and earn money...consider your small investment in the markets compared to...and I hate to say it AIG...How has your year been? Mine sucked...but not even close to the losses insurance companies and other financial based business have suffered. So where do you think they will recover a portion of that loss? Premiums on written policies...expect tighter adjusting practices as well...

Rick Sked
40185
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:42 am    Post subject: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy Reply with quote

I don't know of a mandatory insurance requirement for ground or flight
operations. If one is comfortable with the possibility of funding the
liability or hull losses (many of which are beyond one's control or
knowledge) out of one's own checkbook,then no insurance; no problem. I don't
think a verbal warning of no insurance is going to fly with any plaintiff's
lawyer if the offender has any assets left.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:09 am    Post subject: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy Reply with quote

One other thing an insurance company will peruse is RV10 time and its
recency. A friend who also building an 10, flew my aircraft the other day
with me in the right seat doing CFI duty. He flies a Piper (235hp) and
noticed several differences. The acceleration of the 10 was very noticeably
better; steering with the castoring nose wheel is different than the rudder
interconnect on most certified aircraft. After his first landing he
indicated that he would have survived his first flight. After four landings
he was doing fine. He flies every week and is a 4000tt+ CFII.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:00 am    Post subject: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy Reply with quote

Don

I know a guy at the Nut Tree with thousands of hours and a ton of RV time. I am sure he would be willing to help you in the flight test and possible fly off. If you want his number I can send it to you. I am going to try and make it up to Lincoln on Sat to check out your project.

John G. Cumins
President

JC'S Interactive Systems
2499 B1 Martin Rd
Fairfield Ca 94533
707-425-7100
707-425-7576 Fax

Your Total Technology Solution Provider


From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don McDonald
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 10:08 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy


You're right on... when you start adding it up... wow..... Then they wonder why the number of new pilots is down. With 10 hours of dual = $1,500, 10 hours of instruments = $1,500, transportation and such getting there $500, 40 hours for a test pilot = $4,000, Fuel for the 40= $1,500.... total $9,000.... then $6,000 for insurance. $15,000 before getting in the airplane. Not sure what I'll do.

Don

--- On Wed, 2/18/09, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> wrote:
[quote]
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com>
Subject: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 8:41 PM
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> I hear you Don, that's why I brought it up. It stinks to beblind sided by such financial news. I know when I finishedmy RV-10, I had maybe $1,000 to my name. I was actuallyworried that I may not be able to earn fast enough to payfor the fuel to fly it off in a reasonable amount of time.Think about it, the flyoff alone will cost $1500-3000 infuel. And after not even thinking about it through the build,you call your insurance guy up a month before you fly and
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my RV-10, I had maybe $1,000 to my name. I was actually
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for the fuel to fly it off in a reasonable amount of time.
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partner14



Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Granbury Texas

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:53 am    Post subject: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy Reply with quote

Hope you can make it.... looking forward to meeting you. Don

--- On Thu, 2/19/09, John Cumins <jcumins(at)jcis.net> wrote:
[quote]From: John Cumins <jcumins(at)jcis.net>
Subject: RE: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 9:00 AM


Don



I know a guy at the Nut Tree with thousands of hours and a ton of RV time. I am sure he would be willing to help you in the flight test and possible fly off. If you want his number I can send it to you. I am going to try and make it up to Lincoln on Sat to check out your project.



John G. Cumins

President



JC'S Interactive Systems

2499 B1 Martin Rd

Fairfield Ca 94533

707-425-7100

707-425-7576 Fax



Your Total Technology Solution Provider



From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com ] On Behalf Of Don McDonald
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 10:08 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy




You're right on... when you start adding it up... wow..... Then they wonder why the number of new pilots is down. With 10 hours of dual = $1,500, 10 hours of instruments = $1,500, transportation and such getting there $500, 40 hours for a test pilot = $4,000, Fuel for the 40= $1,500.... total $9,000.... then $6,000 for insurance. $15,000 before getting in the airplane. Not sure what I'll do.


Don

--- On Wed, 2/18/09, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> wrote:

[quote]
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com>
Subject: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 8:41 PM
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> I hear you Don, that's why I brought it up. It stinks to beblind sided by such financial news. I know when I finishedmy RV-10, I had
maybe $1,000 to my name. I was actuallyworried that I may not be able to earn fast enough to payfor the fuel to fly it off in a reasonable amount of time.Think about it, the flyoff alone will cost $1500-3000 infuel. And after not even thinking about it through the build,you call your insurance guy up a month before you fly and
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my RV-10, I had
maybe $1,000 to my name. I was actually
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maybe $1,000 to my name. I was actually
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my RV-10, I had
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maybe $1,000 to my name. I was actually
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maybe $1,000 to my name. I was actually
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my RV-10, I had
maybe $1,000 to my name. I was actually
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my RV-10, I had
maybe $1,000 to my name. I was actually
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my RV-10, I had
maybe $1,000 to my name. I was actually
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my RV-10, I had
maybe $1,000 to my name. I was actually
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worried that I may not be able to earn fast enough to pay
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for the fuel to fly it off in a reasonable amount of time.
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for the fuel to fly it off in a reasonable amount of time.
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for the fuel to fly it off in a reasonable amount of time.
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Think about it, the flyoff alone will cost $1500-3000 in
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fuel. And after not even thinking about it through the build,
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fuel. And after not even thinking about it through the build,
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fuel. And after not even thinking about it through the build,
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fuel. And after not even thinking about it through the build,
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you call your insurance guy up a month before you fly and
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51[quote]> > > --


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Bob Turner



Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy Reply with quote

"One other thing; be sure and get your high performance endorsement along the way. I had planned to offer RV10 transition training in the Phoenix area but after submitting the plan to the FSDO, the subject of the high performance endorsement surfaced. I was told that I could not sign a HP endorsement as a part of the transition because that could be accomplished in certified aircraft (even though a person will not be considered proficient in an RV10 without the instruction for it.). Upon hearing that I decided that I don't need to do this and canned the paperwork "

IMHO this is the FAA's typical over-reaction to a few cheaters. Just as they're re-considering the whole 51% rule because there are a few professional builders (rather than attacking that specific problem head-on), the FAA is afraid someone will offer Flight Reviews in their -10 with no real intention of 'transition training'. It's all a question of the integrity of CFI's, and the FAA is saying that they don't trust anyone. It is of course absurd to think that any decent transition training would not meet the requirements of a Flight Review, a High Performance endorsement, and an IPC (for ifr rated pilots).

High Performance endorsement. As a CFI, I'd have to say that this is mostly ground instruction in the use of the MP gauge and prop control. And maybe, but not necessarily, a step up for the pilot in terms of speed and weight of the aircraft. If the pilot already has experience with a constant speed prop (e.g., 172RG, 201 ) because he obtained a complex endorsement first, then I agree that the High Performance one is redundant. Recall, there was a time when only one endorsement sufficed for both types of aircraft; I have no idea why the FAA changed the rules on this.


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Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
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KiloPapa



Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Pearblossom, CA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:52 pm    Post subject: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy Reply with quote

Excellent discussion regarding insurance, flying spouses, etc.

Thanks.


Kevin
40494
tail/empennage

do not archive
[quote][b]


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Kevin
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bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:18 pm    Post subject: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy Reply with quote

A few years back Rick and I had set up a self insurance group to solve these challenges, Thousands of dollars later we scrapped the idea because the community of RV 10s wouldn’t support it for about $2500 a year as a cost with an estimated 10% a year rebate. Oh well, we tried.

Bob K

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of KiloPapa
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 8:50 PM
To: Matronics RV10 - List
Subject: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy



Excellent discussion regarding insurance, flying spouses, etc.



Thanks.




Kevin
40494
tail/empennage



do not archive
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speckter(at)comcast.net
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:05 am    Post subject: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy Reply with quote

As they say, timing is everything. I was aware that you guys were doing something, but I was still building and had my mind on other things. Now I am flying and focused on insurance issues. I suspect others are more interested. Now we have many more folks flying and near flying, it might be worth while to tap the pulse of the 10 community again and see if now the time is right. I know it is a lot of work, but it might be well worth it.

Gary Specketer


From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Kaufmann
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 12:18 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy


A few years back Rick and I had set up a self insurance group to solve these challenges, Thousands of dollars later we scrapped the idea because the community of RV 10s wouldn’t support it for about $2500 a year as a cost with an estimated 10% a year rebate. Oh well, we tried.

Bob K

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of KiloPapa
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 8:50 PM
To: Matronics RV10 - List
Subject: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy



Excellent discussion regarding insurance, flying spouses, etc.



Thanks.




Kevin
40494
tail/empennage



do not archive
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bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:11 am    Post subject: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy Reply with quote

That could be but until we get shown support it ain’t going to happen.

Bob K

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 6:00 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy



As they say, timing is everything. I was aware that you guys were doing something, but I was still building and had my mind on other things. Now I am flying and focused on insurance issues. I suspect others are more interested. Now we have many more folks flying and near flying, it might be worth while to tap the pulse of the 10 community again and see if now the time is right. I know it is a lot of work, but it might be well worth it.

Gary Specketer


From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Kaufmann
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 12:18 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy


A few years back Rick and I had set up a self insurance group to solve these challenges, Thousands of dollars later we scrapped the idea because the community of RV 10s wouldn’t support it for about $2500 a year as a cost with an estimated 10% a year rebate. Oh well, we tried.

Bob K

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of KiloPapa
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 8:50 PM
To: Matronics RV10 - List
Subject: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy



Excellent discussion regarding insurance, flying spouses, etc.



Thanks.




Kevin
40494
tail/empennage



do not archive
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chuck(at)chuckdirect.com
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:58 am    Post subject: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy Reply with quote

I'd certainly be interested.
do not archive
Chuck Weyant
Cowling, baffling done


From: Bob Kaufmann (bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net)
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 8:11 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy



That could be but until we get shown support it ain’t going to happen.

Bob K

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 6:00 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy



As they say, timing is everything. I was aware that you guys were doing something, but I was still building and had my mind on other things. Now I am flying and focused on insurance issues. I suspect others are more interested. Now we have many more folks flying and near flying, it might be worth while to tap the pulse of the 10 community again and see if now the time is right. I know it is a lot of work, but it might be well worth it.

Gary Specketer


From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Kaufmann
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 12:18 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy


A few years back Rick and I had set up a self insurance group to solve these challenges, Thousands of dollars later we scrapped the idea because the community of RV 10s wouldn’t support it for about $2500 a year as a cost with an estimated 10% a year rebate. Oh well, we tried.

Bob K

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of KiloPapa
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 8:50 PM
To: Matronics RV10 - List
Subject: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy



Excellent discussion regarding insurance, flying spouses, etc.



Thanks.




Kevin
40494
tail/empennage



do not archive
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robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:11 am    Post subject: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy Reply with quote

I would also be interested now that I am flying however I DEFINITELY understand that is a lot of unrewarding work. I mean who wants to toil over insurance work? Maybe waiting till there are 300-400 flying -10 will provide the critical mass needed to make it worth the effort.

Robin
Do Not Archive

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Weyant
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 8:56 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy



I'd certainly be interested.

do not archive

Chuck Weyant

Cowling, baffling done



From: Bob Kaufmann (bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net)

Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 8:11 AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: RE: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy





That could be but until we get shown support it ain’t going to happen.

Bob K

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 6:00 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy



As they say, timing is everything. I was aware that you guys were doing something, but I was still building and had my mind on other things. Now I am flying and focused on insurance issues. I suspect others are more interested. Now we have many more folks flying and near flying, it might be worth while to tap the pulse of the 10 community again and see if now the time is right. I know it is a lot of work, but it might be well worth it.

Gary Specketer


From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Kaufmann
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 12:18 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy


A few years back Rick and I had set up a self insurance group to solve these challenges, Thousands of dollars later we scrapped the idea because the community of RV 10s wouldn’t support it for about $2500 a year as a cost with an estimated 10% a year rebate. Oh well, we tried.

Bob K

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of KiloPapa
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 8:50 PM
To: Matronics RV10 - List
Subject: Re: Insuring an RV-10 with low-time pilots on the policy



Excellent discussion regarding insurance, flying spouses, etc.



Thanks.




Kevin
40494
tail/empennage



do not archive
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