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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:29 am Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

The only problem there...the two links you mentioned...is that the  

K1000 anchor nuts, and any anchor nuts that I've seen, require 3/32"  

rivets to attach, and the other link, to Avex, don't supply 3/32"  

flathead rivets...at least through Spruce...perhaps special order  

though. And I wouldn't suggest trying to drill the 3/32" anchor nuts  

out to 1/8" just for the convenience of not chasing down the  

3/32"...they are harder than hell on drills...ask me. However, you  

could use a 3/32" bolt...that'd be a #3 machine screw which mikes out  

at .092" by actual measure, or a #4 which is .102" by actual measure.  

The hole in one of my anchor nuts is .097" by measure, which means  

that the #4 would not go, but could be drilled...maybe. There is a  

place called MicroFasteners...not sure of spelling...that might have  

the #3 screws, but they've (the #3's) been missing from most charts  

that I've seen for quite a while. The ones I have are round head, and  

were used on model airplanes. If you could still find them, round  

head #3's would work, because the head would disappear into the foam  

strip that you are going to apply over the butt rib capstrip, right?



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying





On Feb 19, 2009, at 7:33 AM, fox5flyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>



 I'm not sure what type of anchor nuts you are referring to, but  

 below are some that will work fine, sans the gold plating.  The  

 ones at .36 each will work fine as will the K1000 at .51 each.



 They also have the countersunk blind rivets, see below.



 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/avexblindriv.php



 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/anchornuts.php



 Deke Morisse

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:37 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

All good advice Lynn, but I don't know why there is a resistance out there 

to normal solid soft aluminum rivets (the A type).  They're very cheap, easy 

to install, and extremely strong--way stronger than anything necessary for 

the use that this thread is referring to.  There is no need to buy an 

expensive squeezer or any special tools.  It's very simple.  Just drill your 

screw holes in the cap strip every 3 inches or so, then using a cleco, hold 

the anchor nut in place on the top side of the rib cap.  When you're 

satisfied with it's placement, simply drill the rivet holes using a 3/32 bit 

using the anchor nut as a pattern.  Reverse the anchor nut to the underside 

of the cap strip and rivet it in place.  All that is needed for those tiny 

rivets is a small ball peen hammer and some sort of small bucking bar on the 

bottom side of the rivet.  A few taps with the hammer and it's done.  It 

helps to use the corresponding attaching screw or a cleco to hold the anchor 

nut in place while riveting.  Very easy and once you get through a couple of 

them the process goes very quickly.  It's permanent, won't come apart, and 

now if you want, can cover the butt rib area without having to worry about 

access.  I'd recommend #6 anchor nuts and screws.  No need for anything 

larger than that.  Also, buy a rivet cutter (cheap) then order your rivets 

at least 3/8-1/2" long and just trim them to size for the job you need.  If 

you screw one up in the process, those soft rivets drill out easily.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



---

jcrowder(at)lpbroadband.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:51 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

To adjust for the weight of the handle, one would need to treat the weight

as a distributed load along the whole of the arm.  The average arm would be

one half of the total length.  As I haven't followed your calculations, you

may already have done this and I then apologize for the clutter of my

comment.  



Jim Crowder



[quote] --

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: New issue, turtle deck security

Okay, here is a few things I am hearing; solid rivets are easy to use, you do not need anchor nuts with nylon lock inserts, you do not need a screw every 2" as with the rivets.  Is this all accurate for what everyone here is saying.  My biggest issue is the solid rivets, from what I have read on other sites it takes a little getting used to to do them right.  I can not however find any good illustrated 1.  2.  3. steps and I can not find a place locally that could show me how.  The local EAA closed and I can not find one within an hour of here.  So if I just go get a bucking bar, ball peen hammer, and some solid rivets, how many tests am I gonna do in scrap aluminum and wood before I will want to go to the butt rib?  

(Yes I am mechanically inclined and this will not be like a monkey learning to do needle point.)

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:33 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

 	  Quote: 	
		  The local EAA closed and I can not find one within an hour of here.  So if 

I just go get a bucking bar, ball peen hammer, and some solid rivets, how 

many tests am I gonna do in scrap aluminum and wood before I will want to 

go to the butt rib?

 (Yes I am mechanically inclined and this will not be like a monkey 

 learning to do needle point.)



 --------

 James


	




Ummm. . . . 6?

dgolden(at)golden-consult
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:22 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

Lynn Matteson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 The only problem there...the two links you mentioned...is that the K1000

 anchor nuts, and any anchor nuts that I've seen, require 3/32" rivets to

 attach, and the other link, to Avex, don't supply 3/32" flathead

 rivets...at least through Spruce...perhaps special order though. And I

 wouldn't suggest trying to drill the 3/32" anchor nuts out to 1/8" just

 for the convenience of not chasing down the 3/32"...they are harder than

 hell on drills...ask me. However, you could use a 3/32" bolt...that'd be

 a #3 machine screw which mikes out at .092" by actual measure, or a #4

 which is .102" by actual measure. The hole in one of my anchor nuts is

 .097" by measure, which means that the #4 would not go, but could be

 drilled...maybe. There is a place called MicroFasteners...not sure of

 spelling...that might have the #3 screws, but they've (the #3's) been

 missing from most charts that I've seen for quite a while. The ones I

 have are round head, and were used on model airplanes. If you could

 still find them, round head #3's would work, because the head would

 disappear into the foam strip that you are going to apply over the butt

 rib capstrip, right?


	


I have a suggestion. Last year at Oshkosh, I happened by the Click Bond

booth and saw that they have bonded nutplates. There stuff is a little

pricey, but it sure is neat. No rivets, no screws just click and go.



Check out this installation sequence drawing:

http://www.clickbond.com/files/Documents/cb9948_techguide.pdf



We actually did some of these while I was there.



Regards,



Dennis M IV Speedster (someday)

-- 

Dennis Golden

Golden Consulting Services, Inc.

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: New issue, turtle deck security

 	  Quote: 	
		  I can not however find any good illustrated 1. 2. 3. steps and I can not find a place locally that could show me how. The local EAA closed and I can not find one within an hour of here. So if I just go get a bucking bar, ball peen hammer, and some solid rivets, how many tests am I gonna do in scrap aluminum and wood before I will want to go to the butt rib? 

(Yes I am mechanically inclined and this will not be like a monkey learning to do needle point.) 	




I squeezed all the solid rivets in my kit with a pair of vise grips.  It took about two test rivets to get the correct setting on the vise grips tension screw.  Start with loose tension, squeeze, tighten a quarter turn, squeeze, tighten a quarter turn, squeeze...until it looks good.



The pattern on the vise grip jaws transfers to the rivet.  If you don't want it to look like that you can file the jaws of a cheep pair smooth.  Get a few solid rivets and give it a try.  Its easy.



The small end of the unsqueezed rivet  should extend 1-1/2 rivet diameter beyond the parts being riveted.  Squeeze until it extends only 1/2 rivet diameter and it should be expanded about 1-1/2 rivet diameter.

Clear as mud? 



Oh, and get a 100 degree countersink to make the countersink for the rivet head.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Last edited by Tom Jones on Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:44 pm; edited 2 times in total

Dan Stanton

Joined: 23 Sep 2008
Posts: 8

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:06 am Post subject: Re: New issue, turtle deck security

Lynn, 

Just go down to Fastenall on Page Ave and pick some up. If they don't have them on hand they will order them and have them in two days, max.

_________________
Dan Stanton
801 175 hrs.
701 95% done

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:51 am Post subject: Re: New issue, turtle deck security

 	  Quote: 	
		  Okay, here is a few things I am hearing; solid rivets are easy to use, you do not need anchor nuts with nylon lock inserts, you do not need a screw every 2" as with the rivets. Is this all accurate for what everyone here is saying. 	




You need a locking nut on the anchor so you don't have to tighten the screws too tight against the skylight.  Stick with a screw every two inches.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:52 am Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

Are we talking the 3/32" rivets, or the anchor nuts?  I've kinda  

forgotten about Fastenall, as the last 3 times I've gone there they  

either don't have what I want or they need to sell you a crate of  

whatever. While a crate of rivets isn't such a bad idea, a crate of  

1/2-13's, 10 inches long might take a few airplanes worth of building  

to use up. : )



I'll look into it, Dan....you got 125 hrs on the 801 already?  time  

for me to dust off the Kitfox, or you'll be catching me...hours that  

is, no way in speed! : )



701...only another 80% to go....: )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying

do not archive



On Feb 20, 2009, at 9:06 AM, Dan Stanton wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <daniel_stanton1(at)comcast.net>



 Lynn,

 Just go down to Fastenall on Page Ave and pick some up. If they  

 don't have them on hand they will order them and have them in two  

 days, max.



 --------

 Dan Stanton

 801 125 hrs.

 701 80% done





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 31200#231200

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:21 am Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

Ok, Guy, I guess you have to be an engineer to solve the code on  

those rivets. It says on the Skygeek page "near the bottom of page"  

100° flush head, but what size? None of the six offered has a size  

printed on the item, and a click on "description" (on the other type  

of rivets) gives less information than the one-line  

description...which is no description at all. The  

recreationalmobility site was even worse...no description   

whatsoever...no legend for figuring out the code for a "ccr-264- 

ss-3-3" .



I'm just a shade-tree mechanic working with a Mac, so maybe I need  

help....no further comment on that comment is required.  : )

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying

do not archive



On Feb 19, 2009, at 12:40 AM, Guy Buchanan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 At 03:55 PM 2/18/2009, you wrote:

> Is it possible to install these with blind rivets?

> I can not find blind countersunk rivets in 3/32" diameter like the  

> anchor nuts call for.  Also I am not experienced with solid rivets  

> and I am not going to figure out how on my butt ribs, ya know?



 For 3/32 counter sunk rivets, see:



 http://www.recreationalmobility.com/cgi-bin/recreation/28193.html

 http://www.recreationalmobility.com/cgi-bin/recreation/28195.html



 and



 http://www.skygeek.com/hardware-cherry-rivetblind.html near the  

 bottom of the page.

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:09 am Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

At 10:18 AM 2/20/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I'm just a shade-tree mechanic working with a Mac, so maybe I need  

 help....no further comment on that comment is required.  : ) 	


 Sorry Lynn. I was in a bit of a rush. My house is in some disarray as we move the kid's rooms around so I couldn't find my Cherry catalogue. Some digging revealed the following:



 CCR 264 SS -3 -3 is a Cherry Nut Plate Rivet. The codes mean the following:



 -3 = Grip Length (maximum grip in 1/16 inch increments)

 -3 = Diameter Dash Number (in 1/32 inch increments)

 SS - Material Code (in this case 1018 steel)

 264 - Head Style (in this case 100 degree flush head)

 CCR - Cherry's Basic Part Number (Inch)



 My source is:  http://www.cherryaerospace.com/files/pdf/catalog/CA-1036.pdf



 So the rivets I referenced were all steel 100 degree flathead 3/32 diameter pops in various lengths.



 

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.    [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:52 am Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

Thanks for the followup, Guy. That site you mentioned for the Cherry  

Rivets is a treasure trove of info about rivets, and a code-breakers  

bible. : )  Now all we need is to find a supplier who is just a bit  

lower in standards than Cherry, and will supply an aluminum rivet  

with steel mandrel, in various lengths. By the way, it's important to  

remember that the first "3" in the code is diameter, and the second  

"3" (in your example) is length. Nice to see that if a person was  

willing to use the steel-steel (material code SS)

that those ARE available in a 5/16" length and shorter. Maybe I'm  

being too anal in thinking that an all-steel rivet is too strong to  

use when the base material is wood. Although in the case of the wing  

rib cap strips, that wood is pretty tough stuff, and would probably  

handle steel rivets, but I still stand by my caution to not use  

stainless-stainless rivets, as I feel these are just too strong for  

the wood environment. The installation of SS rivets in my firewall... 

30-some altogether?...was enough to convince me that those things are  

strong!

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying

On Feb 22, 2009, at 11:44 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   At 10:18 AM 2/20/2009, you wrote:

> I'm just a shade-tree mechanic working with a Mac, so maybe I need

> help....no further comment on that comment is required.  : )

 Sorry Lynn. I was in a bit of a rush. My house is in some disarray  

 as we move the kid's rooms around so I couldn't find my Cherry  

 catalogue. Some digging revealed the following:

 CCR 264 SS -3 -3 is a Cherry Nut Plate Rivet. The codes mean the  

 following:

 -3 = Grip Length (maximum grip in 1/16 inch increments)

 -3 = Diameter Dash Number (in 1/32 inch increments)

 SS - Material Code (in this case 1018 steel)

 264 - Head Style (in this case 100 degree flush head)

 CCR - Cherry's Basic Part Number (Inch)

 My source is: http://www.cherryaerospace.com/files/pdf/catalog/ 

 CA-1036.pdf

 So the rivets I referenced were all steel 100 degree flathead 3/32  

 diameter pops in various lengths.

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

 www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:20 am Post subject: Re: New issue, turtle deck security

Lynn Mattison wrote,

 	  Quote: 	
		  The installation of SS rivets in my firewall... 

30-some altogether?...was enough to convince me that those things are 

strong! 	
 



Not to mention the wings, 324 stainless rivets in each wing.  That brings back memories of tired hands.

do not archive.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:29 am Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

At 05:51 AM 2/23/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Maybe I'm

being too anal in thinking that an all-steel rivet is too strong to

use when the base material is wood. Although in the case of the wing

rib cap strips, that wood is pretty tough stuff, and would probably

handle steel rivets, but I still stand by my caution to not use

stainless-stainless rivets, as I feel these are just too strong for

the wood environment.


	


I used them to attach my floating nut plates that hold my skylight to 

the butt rib cap strip. They are countersunk into the wood and went 

in with no problem, with not even a hint of stress to the wood. 

Though they are steel they are nothing like stainless pops you might 

be used to; they're very easy to install. (After all, they're only 3/32 OD.)

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Leon Morris

Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 10
Location: Flower Mound, Texas

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:51 am Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

O.K., let me get this straight, you need a locking nut on a anchor? I thought an anhcor nut was a locking nut. That's all that holding my wing tips on, just anchor nuts and screws.          Leon Morris/Classic 4 Sptr/65%/ Flower Mound,TX

---- Tom Jones <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 

 > Okay, here is a few things I am hearing; solid rivets are easy to use, you do not need anchor nuts with nylon lock inserts, you do not need a screw every 2" as with the rivets. Is this all accurate for what everyone here is saying.

 

 

 You need a locking nut on the anchor so you don't have to tighten the screws too tight against the skylight.  Stick with a screw every two inches.

 

 --------

 Tom Jones

 Classic IV

 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp

 Ellensburg, WA

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 31207#231207

_________________
Leon Morris/Classic 4 Speedster/65%/Flower Mound,TX

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:35 am Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

I think what Tom meant is that you need the anchor nut to have a self- 

locking feature, such as the "squeezed nut" in the all-metal anchor  

nuts, K1000, MK1000, K2000, MK2000, or K3000, or the elastic-insert  

locking device as in the AN366F, NA17, or NA5's as seen in the Spruce  

catalog.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Feb 23, 2009, at 11:50 AM, <l.morris(at)tx.rr.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



     O.K., let me get this straight, you need a locking nut on a  

 anchor? I thought an anhcor nut was a locking nut. That's all that  

 holding my wing tips on, just anchor nuts and screws.          Leon  

 Morris/Classic 4 Sptr/65%/ Flower Mound,TX

 ---- Tom Jones <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net> wrote:

> 

>> Okay, here is a few things I am hearing; solid rivets are easy to  

>> use, you do not need anchor nuts with nylon lock inserts, you do  

>> not need a screw every 2" as with the rivets. Is this all  

>> accurate for what everyone here is saying.

> You need a locking nut on the anchor so you don't have to tighten  

> the screws too tight against the skylight.  Stick with a screw  

> every two inches.

>

> --------

> Tom Jones

> Classic IV

> 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp

> Ellensburg, WA

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 31207#231207

>

>

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Leon Morris

Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 10
Location: Flower Mound, Texas

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:55 am Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

OK Lynn, that sounds better and makes sense to me now-- Leon

---- Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I think what Tom meant is that you need the anchor nut to have a self- 

 locking feature, such as the "squeezed nut" in the all-metal anchor  

 nuts, K1000, MK1000, K2000, MK2000, or K3000, or the elastic-insert  

 locking device as in the AN366F, NA17, or NA5's as seen in the Spruce  

 catalog.

 

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

 Sensenich 62x46

 Electroair direct-fire ignition system

 Status: flying

 

 

 

 

 On Feb 23, 2009, at 11:50 AM, <l.morris(at)tx.rr.com> wrote:

 

 > 

 >

 >     O.K., let me get this straight, you need a locking nut on a  

 > anchor? I thought an anhcor nut was a locking nut. That's all that  

 > holding my wing tips on, just anchor nuts and screws.          Leon  

 > Morris/Classic 4 Sptr/65%/ Flower Mound,TX

 > ---- Tom Jones <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net> wrote:

 >> 

 >>

 >>

 >>> Okay, here is a few things I am hearing; solid rivets are easy to  

 >>> use, you do not need anchor nuts with nylon lock inserts, you do  

 >>> not need a screw every 2" as with the rivets. Is this all  

 >>> accurate for what everyone here is saying.

 >>

 >>

 >> You need a locking nut on the anchor so you don't have to tighten  

 >> the screws too tight against the skylight.  Stick with a screw  

 >> every two inches.

 >>

 >> --------

 >> Tom Jones

 >> Classic IV

 >> 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp

 >> Ellensburg, WA

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >> Read this topic online here:

 >>

 >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 31207#231207

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

_________________
Leon Morris/Classic 4 Speedster/65%/Flower Mound,TX

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:35 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

I'm not sure but aren't the Aviex rivets used by Zenith steel core aluminium

rivets?  I remember reading somewhere that There is two manufacturing plants

and Zenith only buys from one.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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