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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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 Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:04 am Post subject: Greenhouse construction |
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When my father built his VJ-22 sportsman amphib back in the sixties ( and
early seventies ) it was constructed of aircraft grade mahogany plywood.
The sides and top of the fuselage were actually 1/16" ply held in place with
brass nails and resourcenol glue. The nails were very thin and ribbed like
boat nails but were also coated in a resin powder that melted as the nail
was driven. On the lower hull the much thicker plywood was held in place
with brass screws. The specs called for the holes for the screws to be
drilled then each screw was coated in fresh resorcinol glue before being
driven. He did a couple of tests before actually putting any screws into
the plane. The result is once the glue hardened it was darn near impossible
to remove the screws afterward.
If I had to put a screw into wood that I never wanted to come out I think
I'd use a dab of glue on it.
Noel
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:36 pm Post subject: Greenhouse construction |
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Looks good to me. When I am all done I'll send some pictures.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford C IL
| Quote: | From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net
Subject: Re: Re: Greenhouse construction
Date: Thu C 19 Feb 2009 06:27:37 -0500
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
LP Aeroplastics sells a dense foam tape C self-adhesive C for that very
purpose. I still say the rivet idea is not the best C because of no
way to control tension C and the bearing area is too small. You've
covered the bearing area with the aluminum strips C but is it a good-
looking installation?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster C taildragger
Jabiru 2200 C #2062 C 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 18 C 2009 C at 11:38 PM C patrick reilly wrote:
> Hey Guys C One thing I am doing that no one else is doing. You all
> have the heads of your screws or rivets bearing on the Lexan. I am
> using a 1/16th" x 3/4" wide strip of aluminum on top of the Lexan
> drilled out for the row of rivets front to back on the ribs and
> cross wise above the spar carry through tubes. I didn't do it C but
> if I was to do it again C I would put some sort of rubber tape on
> the bottom side of the aluminum strip to cushion it slightly. I
> don't know it just looked like a good way to spread the holding
> force of the rivets over a large area of the Lexan to me. I really
> don't like a bolt or rivet head bearing on a piece of plexi C even
> with a fender washer. I did the same thing on the plexi observation
> doors that I made.
>
> Pat Reilly
> Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> Rockford C IL
>================
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[quote]
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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:39 pm Post subject: Greenhouse construction |
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Guy C There is fabric both sides of the butt rib. However the original builder put portholes in the fabric similar to inspection holes. You can see in.But C Not enough access to work in there. I will have to do a little surgical work on the fabric.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford C IL
| Quote: | Date: Wed C 18 Feb 2009 21:45:28 -0800
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
From: bnn(at)nethere.com
Subject: RE: Re: Greenhouse construction
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>
At 04:23 PM 2/18/2009 C you wrote:
>Do I remove the fabric covering on the rib and bolt down the cabin top?
Pat C
I'm a little confused. How did you confirm there was no
metal backing if you can't get to the underside without removing
fabric? I'm definitely not understanding your configuration.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego C CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 10======================
>======
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[quote]
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:44 am Post subject: Greenhouse construction |
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I just looked at my installation this morning, and found that I had
used 14 (~2" spacing) 10-32's holding each side on, and 15 (~2 1/4"
spacing) 10-32's along the rear. The sides...the butt rib
capstrips..were reinforced with the thin aluminum strip mentioned
here, which is up under the butt rib capstrip, and looks like it was
epoxied in place. From 4 years ago, it's hard to remember if I did
that strip installation or the previous owner. But I alone am
responsible for the machine screw spacing, and the choice of 10-32's
for which I do NOT apologize...might be overkill, but better over
than under when it comes to lift acting on this area. If James had
trouble with his (previous owner's) rivets pulling through, and if
the front of the windshield along the "A post" is held on with
factory-supplied 10-32's, in an area under *pressure* why would I
choose any lesser-size screw to hold down something that is subjected
to lift? This is probably the argument that I had with myself when I
came upon this question during the building, in 2004. In hindsight
maybe 8-32's, but I don't think I'd have been comfortable with 6's.
I'm just a seat-of-the-pants engineer, but my butt gets squiggly when
I think of using something as small as a 6-32...maybe with the thin .
080"(?) Lexan that comes with the kit, but not with the .125"
thickness of the LP Aeroplastics windshield/skylight...it just
doesn't seem right.
My butt rib is covered, and I have peek-through windows to view the
wing tank sight gauges, but I can still see the anchor nuts and the
reinforcing strip for about half of the butt rib. Sure glad I put
anchor nuts in...would hate to have to get in there to work on that
area after having covered it up.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 20, 2009, at 1:39 AM, patrick reilly wrote:
| Quote: | Guy, There is fabric both sides of the butt rib. However the
original builder put portholes in the fabric similar to inspection
holes. You can see in.But, Not enough access to work in there. I
will have to do a little surgical work on the fabric.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:45:28 -0800
> To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
> From: bnn(at)nethere.com
> Subject: RE: Re: Greenhouse construction
>
>
>
> At 04:23 PM 2/18/2009, you wrote:
> >Do I remove the fabric covering on the rib and bolt down the
cabin top?
>
> Pat,
> I'm a little confused. How did you confirm there was no
> metal backing if you can't get to the underside without removing
> fabric? I'm definitely not understanding your configuration.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 10======================
>======
>
>
>
============================================================ _-
============================================================ _-
contribution_-
============================================================
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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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Guy Buchanan
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:47 pm Post subject: Greenhouse construction |
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At 10:39 PM 2/19/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: | Guy, There is fabric both sides of the butt rib. However the
original builder put portholes in the fabric similar to inspection
holes. You can see in.But, Not enough access to work in there. I
will have to do a little surgical work on the fabric.
|
Pat,
That sounds like a clean installation; but what a problem
for you. Can't say as I see a way around it. Actually there is ONE
trick I learned from my years as a yacht designer. I have, at times,
spaced floating nut plates along long pieces of non-structural
material and slid them into holes as backing plates for deck
structure. You might be able to do the same if you could find the
right access. That way you might be able to cut small holes and still
get nut plates in.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
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Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too. |
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:21 pm Post subject: Greenhouse construction |
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I thought this thread died out, so was not going to post what I found
out today, and that is some interesting info on 3/32" pop rivets.
This quote came from www.bonaero.com/ and I quote:
************************
" 3/32" Pop rivets do not posses enough shear strength to
resist the locking torque of the large nut plates. As anybody who has
spun a hidden nut plate will attest, you do not want that to happen
again. Cherry's 3/32" nut plate rivets are steel with retained steel
stems which resist over 100 lbs of single shear load per rivet. "
************************
To read that, one has to wonder about the wisdom of using aluminum
pop rivets for the installation of anchor nuts, of course this
warning of aimed at "large nut plates". At the website, there is a
legend for breaking the secret code of the "rivet world".. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
do not archive
On Feb 22, 2009, at 9:42 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
| Quote: |
At 10:39 PM 2/19/2009, you wrote:
> Guy, There is fabric both sides of the butt rib. However the
> original builder put portholes in the fabric similar to inspection
> holes. You can see in.But, Not enough access to work in there. I
> will have to do a little surgical work on the fabric.
Pat,
That sounds like a clean installation; but what a problem
for you. Can't say as I see a way around it. Actually there is ONE
trick I learned from my years as a yacht designer. I have, at
times, spaced floating nut plates along long pieces of non-
structural material and slid them into holes as backing plates for
deck structure. You might be able to do the same if you could find
the right access. That way you might be able to cut small holes and
still get nut plates in.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
|
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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:51 pm Post subject: Greenhouse construction |
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Guy C Thanks for info. I cut the fabric out to match the holes in the ribs. I should have access room now. The only problem is the width of the top of the rib that the rivet passes through is very narrow. I don't think I can get a backing waser on a rivet. I may leave 1/2 of the rivets and replace every other rivet with a #8 screw and a nylock nut.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford C IL
[quote] Date: Sun C 22 Feb 2009 18:42:36 -0800
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
From: bnn(at)nethere.com
Subject: RE: Re: Greenhouse construction
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>
At 10:39 PM 2/19/2009 C you wrote:
>Guy C There is fabric both sides of the butt rib. However the
>original builder put portholes in the fabric similar to inspection
>holes. You can see in.But C Not enough access to work in there. I
>will have to do a little surgical work on the fabric.
Pat C
That sounds like a clean installation; but what a problem
for you. Can't say as I see a way around it. Actually there is ONE
trick I learned from my years as a yacht designer. I have C at times C
spaced floating nut plates along long pieces of non-structural
material and slid them into holes as backing plates for deck
structure. You might be able to do the same if you could find the
right access. That way you might be able to cut small holes and still
get nut plates in.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego C CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done C thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
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Lowlead
Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: Greenhouse construction |
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Why not use rivnuts? ACS & McMaster both carry them. McMaster carries recessed head versions that sit flush to the mounting surface (butt rib). In most cases you don't need access to the backside, maybe install with a little epoxy to keep the rivnut from turning. Grip length may be a little short for the butt rib's capstrip, but one could always counter-bore a little and use the std flat head rivnut.
Dan H.
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Fox5flyer
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:17 am Post subject: Greenhouse construction |
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Dan, rivnuts do have their purpose in certain installations, but with the
compressibility of wood, I think if it were me, I would avoid that. Very
good chance they would spin. The epoxy idea is a good one though and might
work.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
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