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george.mueller(at)aurora.
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:47 am Post subject: Long wing

A while back there was some discussion of drawings that were approved by Chris for extending the wings by 16 inches or so for the 701.  Does anyone have a copy of those drawings?   

 

George 

 

 

George in Milwaukee 

N701GM 60 hour flying

 Phone 414-647-3134

  [quote][b]

stepinwolf

Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 133
Location: Canada

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:07 am Post subject: Long wing

George,

  

 Here are the original drawings, I was told they were done by the MAN (  CH ) himself.  They are not as sharp as regular plans, but hey,, they look  as though they were drawn on a napkin, on a counter top.

  

 After seeing these, I decided to extend my wing the same distance, but  between the cabin, and the main strut attaching point, so that there is no  increase in the length, outboard of the strut.

  

 Good luck

  

 Robert 

 Three Rivers, Quebec

 The 701 & 750 Scratch

  

  

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_________________
Long wing + vga's, = lo & slo

john.marzulli(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:38 am Post subject: Long wing

Looking those drawings the date in the corner is October of 1992 and the plans reference the 701UL.

  

 I wonder if these drawings will still hold for the increased gross of the newer plans.

  

  

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 John Marzulli



http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/

http://marzulli.smugmug.com/

http://701Builder.blogspot.com/

 http://www.JohnMarzulli.net/



 On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 8:59 AM, Robert Pelland <robert.pelland(at)cgocable.ca (robert.pelland(at)cgocable.ca)> wrote:

 [quote]  George,

  

 Here are the original drawings, I was told they were done by the MAN ( CH ) himself.  They are not as sharp as regular plans, but hey,, they look as though they were drawn on a napkin, on a counter top.

  

 After seeing these, I decided to extend my wing the same distance, but between the cabin, and the main strut attaching point, so that there is no increase in the length, outboard of the strut.

  

 Good luck

  

 Robert 

 Three Rivers, Quebec

 The 701 & 750 Scratch

  

  

 [quote]  ---

stepinwolf

Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 133
Location: Canada

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:09 pm Post subject: Long wing

John

  

 I have no engineering experience, or knowledge, so any comment on my  part would be purely hypothical.  This is one of the reasons I will be  adding the extra length, between the cabin, and the outer, main, strut  attachment point.  Since my wings are not as yet assembled, this  modification will be relatively easy to do.  Sadly, for those who's wings  are assembled, this would not be an option.

  

 I don't know of any other, or up to date drawings referencing a wing  extension.

  

 Regards

 Robert Pelland

  

  

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Long wing + vga's, = lo & slo

dougsnash

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 281

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:04 pm Post subject: Long wing

Maybe I am being dense on this, what is the purpose of the increased wingspan? My gut feeling would suggest it is to increase lift but the 701 already climbs very well.  Am I missing something?



While this post might come accross a sarcastic or snotty, I mean this in as sincere fashion as possible.



Do Not Archive 



Doug MacDonald

CH-701 Scratch Builder

NW Ontario, Canada

--- On Wed, 2/25/09, Robert Pelland <robert.pelland(at)cgocable.ca> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Robert Pelland <robert.pelland(at)cgocable.ca>

 Subject: Re: Long wing

 To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 2:03 PM

 John

 

 I have no engineering experience, or knowledge, so any

 comment on my part would be purely hypothical.  This is one

 of the reasons I will be adding the extra length, between

 the cabin, and the outer, main, strut attachment point. 

 Since my wings are not as yet assembled, this modification

 will be relatively easy to do.  Sadly, for those who's

 wings are assembled, this would not be an option.

 

 I don't know of any other, or up to date drawings

 referencing a wing extension.

 

 Regards

 Robert Pelland

stepinwolf

Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 133
Location: Canada

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:37 pm Post subject: Long wing

Hi Doug,  

  

 I don't think your question is sarcastic or snotty in the least. It's a  legitimate question, and deserves a response.

  

 Over the years ( many years ) I have accumulated a few hundred hours  in my log book, flying mostly with the Cessna's and Pipers from the local flying  school.  When I decided to build my own plane, STOL performance was not one  of my priorities, but  I chose the 701 so I could fly as slow as I  could. I am not planning on installing any slats, and will have a full  compliment of VG's on the main wings, and underneath the rear stabilizer.

  

 Since most of my flying will either be done from long paved runways, or  water, I can live with the lost of a little STOL capability, in  exchange for some slower flying speed.  The extended wing will further  reduce the wing loading, and the absence of slats will improve the fuel  millage.  In case no one noticed, I turned 65 a few weeks ago, so all I  want to do now, is safely fly as slow as I can , and skim the tree  tops.

  

 Hope this gives you a little insight on the reason I decided to go this  way.

  

 Fly safe Doug.

  

 Best regards

 Robert Pelland

 701 & 750 Scratch

  

 [img]cid:D010688C8DB944E29AFF047A2211EEB6(at)BobPC[/img]

  

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Long wing + vga's, = lo & slo

randy(at)rjhebertassoc.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:35 pm Post subject: Long wing

Robert  

I am a little younger than you (9 months)  

I think the question posed earlier was are you planning to add the 16 inches inboard of the slats.  

Meaning will you be building a longer SPAR?  

One response asked if you were using the Zenith spar or are you building  one from scratch.  

The answer lies in the method of construction.  Since the sketch was for the tip end or outboard end it simply added an extender.  

The tip end is not structurally attached.  

Adding 16” Inboard or at the root can only be accomplished if you are building from scratch.  

There are structural issues that you need to be aware of if this is so  

Happy Building and flying  

Randall J Hebert  

Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc  

Consulting Engineers  

Ph 337-261-1976  Fx 337-261-1977  

From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Pelland

 Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:37 PM

 To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Long wing  

Hi Doug,    

I don't think your question is sarcastic or snotty in the least. It's a legitimate question, and deserves a response.  

Over the years ( many years ) I have accumulated a few hundred hours in my log book, flying mostly with the Cessna's and Pipers from the local flying school.  When I decided to build my own plane, STOL performance was not one of my priorities, but  I chose the 701 so I could fly flying as slow as I could. I am not planning on installing any slats, and will have a full compliment of VG's on the main wings, and underneath the rear stabilizer.  

Since most of my flying will either be done from long paved runways, or water, I can live with the lost of a little STOL capability, in exchange for some slower flying speed.  The extended wing will further reduce the wing loading, and the absence of slats will improve the fuel millage.  In case no one noticed, I turned 65 a few weeks ago, so all I want to do now, is safely fly as slow as I can , and skim the tree tops.  

Hope this gives you a little insight on the reason I decided to go this way.  

Fly safe Doug.  

Best regards  

Robert Pelland  

701 & 750 Scratch  

[img]cid:image001.gif(at)01C9976E.171CA600[/img]  

   	  Quote: 	

----- Original Message -----   

From: MacDonald Doug (dougsnash(at)yahoo.com)   

To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com (zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com)   

Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 5:03 PM  

Subject: Re: Long wing  

--> Zenith701801-List message posted by: MacDonald Doug <dougsnash(at)yahoo.com (dougsnash(at)yahoo.com)>

 Maybe I am being dense on this, what is the purpose of the increased wingspan? My gut feeling would suggest it is to increase lift but the 701 already climbs very well.  Am I missing something?

 While this post might come accross a sarcastic or snotty, I mean this in as sincere fashion as possible.

 Do Not Archive 

 Doug MacDonald

 CH-701 Scratch Builder

 NW Ontario, Canada

 --- On Wed, 2/25/09, Robert Pelland <robert.pelland(at)cgocable.ca (robert.pelland(at)cgocable.ca)> wrote:

 > From: Robert Pelland <robert.pelland(at)cgocable.ca (robert.pelland(at)cgocable.ca)>

 > Subject: Re: Long wing

 > To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com (zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com)

 > Date: Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 2:03 PM

 > John

 > 

 > I have no engineering experience, or knowledge, so any

 > comment on my part would be purely hypothical.  This is one

 > of the reasons I will be adding the extra length, between

 > the cabin, and the outer, main, strut attachment point. 

 > Since my wings are not as yet assembled, this modification

 > will be relatively easy to do.  Sadly, for those who's

 > wings are assembled, this would not be an option.

 > 

 > I don't know of any other, or up to date drawings

 > referencing a wing extension.

 > 

 > Regards

 > Robert Pelland

 > 

       p;      Features Chat, http://www.nbsp;      via the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

 _p;         generous bsp;                    href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c=================

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John Bolding

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 281

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:37 pm Post subject: Long wing

Excellent point, 

  I have a drawing from CH that shows basically  the same treatment on the tip but the main structural change was lengthening the  doubler at the strut attach point and increasing it's thickness,    just got a new scanner so will try to send it in an hour or two if  everything goes right. The fellow that sent it to me was the original recipient  from CH and it was for the higher gross airplane.

 LO&SLO      John

 [quote]   ---

stepinwolf

Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 133
Location: Canada

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:08 pm Post subject: Long wing

Randall,

  

 See imbedded text below

  

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Long wing + vga's, = lo & slo

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:15 am Post subject: Re: Long wing

Here is a pic of a Savannah wing. The Spar doubler is .025 instead of .032 and it is about 500mm longer I also have the instructions to upgrade the Savannah to 1200 gross they do not include changing the doubler. Mostly the attach point and some mods to the fuselage.Also attached is the extended spar on a 701.

I have a folder called long wing share for anyone interested, to big to post here.



Kevin

 

 	  john.marzulli(at)gmail.co wrote: 	
		  Looking those drawings the date in the corner is October of 1992 and the plans reference the 701UL.

 ï¿½

 I wonder if these drawings will still hold for the increased gross of the newer plans.

 ï¿½

 ï¿½

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 John Marzulli

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_________________
â€œAlways do what you are afraid to do.â€
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)

"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009

"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune

stepinwolf

Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 133
Location: Canada

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:17 am Post subject: Re: Long wing

Randall,  It looks' as though my attempt to merge my reply to your previous message was not a success, so I will try this once again.

Robert



I am a little younger than you (9 months)



Nine months makes you close enough to be in my club. )  welcome



I think the question posed earlier was are you planning to add the 16 inches inboard of the slats.



I am a little confused about your use of the word " slats " . Should I read that as being " struts " rather then your use of slats, if that is the case, yes, inboard of the strut attachment on the wing



Meaning will you be building a longer SPAR?



I have already cut the spars out of .032 to a total length of 3660m



One response asked if you were using the Zenith spar or are you building  one from scratch.



I am riveting my own. I purchased a 3X from " Cleveland ", along with their new 12" back rivet setter, and first impressions are very positive



The answer lies in the method of construction.  Since the sketch was for the tip end or outboard end it simply added an extender.



The tip end is not structurally attached.



That is one reason I am not inclined to go with anything that does not add structurally to the wing.  I also plan on extending my spar caps as far into the spar tip as I can

Adding 16â€ Inboard or at the root can only be accomplished if you are building from scratch.



Definitely from scratch.  My disability pension dictate's it can't be done otherwise



There are structural issues that you need to be aware of if this is so



Randall, as you can see, " This is so " so would you care to elaborate on what additional issues I should know about. ?



I will speak to you later this evening, because I am going into my " hanger " ( read that as being my basement ) to skin my stabilizer.  This is also something to which I added my own touch.  For what it's worth, the mods I have made to the stab, were done before the plans for the 750, were made available. Check attached pic for the two views



Robert Pelland



701 & 750 Scratch



Trois RiviÃ¨res, QuÃ©bec



819 377-2492



 



Thank you for your input, and fly safe

_________________
Long wing + vga's, = lo & slo

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:19 am Post subject: Re: Long wing

Robert why the reinforcement on the stabilizer?



Kevin

stepinwolf

Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 133
Location: Canada

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:55 am Post subject: Long wing

Good morning Kevin,

  

 I am not quite sure what reinforcement you are referring to, since I posted  a photo showing two different configuration of the stabs, that are not quite  like the factory design for the 701.

  

 If you are referring to the short 45 degree angles I riveted to  the tip ribs on the original model, it was simply done to keep everything  squared up perfectly for the skinning.  These small sections have no use  what so ever, once the skin is in place and riveted correctly.

  

 On the other hand if it's the double spar modification you are talking  about,  I reinforced the stab in this way to try and diminish the  destructive actions caused by the violent shaking that is seen at low  engine speed, or when it is flown from the water. I also replaced the A4  rivets with the stronger A5 on the tip ribs, since these ribs are all that hold  the outer hinges to the stabilizer

  

 My original thoughts were that it most certainly be much more resilient in  this way, and it seems that my impressions were not far off.  The reason I  say this is because not long after assembling the stab in this fashion, I  received my plans for the 750, only to see that the factory had re-designed the  stabilizer for the new CH-750 in the exact same way I built mine for the 701,  albeit mine is  the standard length.  There is a very small weight  increase, but you would not believe how strong the bare frame is, as compared to  the standard build.

  

 Hope this answers your question, )

  

 Best regards

 Robert Pelland

 The 701 & 750 Scratch

  

  

  

  

  

 ---

_________________
Long wing + vga's, = lo & slo

randy(at)rjhebertassoc.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:27 am Post subject: Long wing

This is not the first time I have confused the s-word  

Slats, struts, spars etc.  

   

No I meant inboard of the struts i.e. at the root  

   

Since you are scratch building and have beefed up the web there are no issues I have.  

   

The way the earlier posts sounded I thought you would be modifying the root end of the spar.  

   

At any rate you sound as though you have it under control.  Keep in touch  

     

Randall J Hebert  

  

       

From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Pelland

 

   

  

  

     

Randall,  

    

   

    

See imbedded text below  

    

   

  

      [quote][b]

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:02 am Post subject: Re: Long wing

Yup it does and now I kinda wish I'd done it, but too late!



Thanks

Do not archive



 	  stepinwolf wrote: 	
		  

 Hope this answers your question, )

  

 Best regards

 Robert Pelland

 The 701 & 750 Scratch

  

  

  

  

  

 ---

stepinwolf

Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 133
Location: Canada

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:06 am Post subject: Long wing

Randall,

  

 Don't feel bad about any confusion, age does that to us you  know.  ;o)

  

 I am not planning anything major at the root end of the wing ( kind'a like  leave well enough alone ) but I am considering two small changes that would have  a long term benefit to the strength of the attachment points.

  

 The 701 has the following

  

 Upper front strut fitting  t=.125

 Rear root doubler           t=.090

 Spar root  fitting            t-  .187

  

 The 750 is using the following thickness, and for a very little increase in  weight, it is something I am considering

  

 Upper front strut fitting  t= .187

 Rear root doubler          t=  .125

 Spar root  fitting            t=   .25

  

 Thank's for your encouraging words.  I will be posting a s*** load of  pics, when the time comes to start assembling ( still a little ways off ) the  main wings.

  

 Most of my apprehensions about the modifications, and extended wing,  disappeared after speaking to Caleb, a month or so ago, since his remarque's  sounded as though what I was considering was an everyday, run of the mill  thingy. 

  

 You have my best regards

  

 Robert W. Pelland

  

  

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Long wing + vga's, = lo & slo

CDNCH701

Joined: 26 Feb 2009
Posts: 11
Location: Winnipeg, MB Canada

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:47 am Post subject: Re: Long wing

Hey Robert



How thick is the front stabilizer reinforcement... 0.025 or 0.032  



Ron

stepinwolf

Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 133
Location: Canada

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:31 am Post subject: Long wing

Ron,

  

 I made mine out of .020, since I am not using any  .016 anywhere on my 701 build.  

  

 As for the 750, I figure due to it's increased width, and weight of the  aircraft,  the factory chose to use .025 on the front, and .032,  in the rear.

  

 regards

 Robert

  

  

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Long wing + vga's, = lo & slo

John Bolding

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 281

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:52 am Post subject: Long wing

Couple of yrs ago someone on this list figured the  square footage of the 016 on the 701 and determined that using 020  everywhere would cost you 68# of payload, I didn't double check his figures but  if I was going to do it I sure would. Also gonna move the CG to the  rear.

 LO&SLO    John

 [quote]   ---

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:48 am Post subject: Long wing

John,



Solid aluminum is 165 lbs per cubic foot. Divide that by 12 to get an 

inch by 12 x 12 or 13.75 lbs divided by 1000 to get weight per 

1/1000-inch or .0138 times the difference in thickness between .016 and 

.020 which is .004 and you get .055 lbs added per square foot. If you 

only use the 122 sq ft wing area, both top and bottom add up to less 

than 14 lbs. I don’t know the total area of the 701 in .016, but the 

weight added is easy from here.



I’d suppose you might consider more pitch or more hp for the weight 

added though.



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

John Bolding wrote:

[quote] Couple of yrs ago someone on this list figured the square footage of 

 the 016 on the 701 and determined that using 020 everywhere would cost 

 you 68# of payload, I didn't double check his figures but if I was 

 going to do it I sure would. Also gonna move the CG to the rear.

 LO&SLO John



     ---

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