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701 elevator trim option
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bob(at)frontrange-pc.com
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:20 pm    Post subject: 701 elevator trim option Reply with quote

Folks,

My rudder is done and I’m tooling up for the rest of the tail feathers. While I’m trying to go as light as possible I’m thinking the trim option is good idea. I’d appreciate feedback from those flying with and without the trim. Especially those of you with heavier engines.

Thanks in advance

Bob Percival
701/Vair - Glacial pace but accelerating finally!

Do Not Archive
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:40 pm    Post subject: 701 elevator trim option Reply with quote

Wouldn't be without it, not much weight to it and you are going to need as much weight in the tail that you can get.
Bob Spudis




In a message dated 2/20/2009 11:21:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, bob(at)frontrange-pc.com writes:
Quote:

Folks,

My rudder is done and I’m tooling up for the rest of the tail feathers. While I’m trying to go as light as possible I’m thinking the trim option is good idea. I’d appreciate feedback from those flying with and without the trim. Especially those of you with heavier engines.

Thanks in advance

Bob Percival
701/Vair - Glacial pace but accelerating finally!

Do Not Archive



A Good Credit Score is 7001267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62"> See yours in just 2 easy steps!
[quote][b]


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bobkat



Joined: 07 Sep 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Bismarck, ND

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:03 am    Post subject: 701 elevator trim option Reply with quote

I'd sure put it in. Hardly weighs anything. I admit that once trimmed for straight and level I rarely touch it as control forces are so light no matter what.
On my kitfox the 'trim' is by adjusting the flapperons, using a different system. On that plane I rarely touch the trim either as trimmed straight and level I never notice stick forces no matter what I do.
[quote] ---


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dwilde(at)clearwire.net
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:09 am    Post subject: 701 elevator trim option Reply with quote

Bob Percival wrote:
Quote:

Folks,

My rudder is done and Im tooling up for the rest of the tail
feathers. While Im trying to go as light as possible Im thinking the
trim option is good idea. Id appreciate feedback from those flying
with and without the trim. Especially those of you with heavier engines.

Thanks in advance

Bob Percival

701/Vair - Glacial pace but accelerating finally!

Bob: Put it in now. I did not install the electric trim tab until after

I built and flew my plane. It would have been so much easier installing
it while I was building instead of retrofitting later.

Yes you will want one. It works great and once trimmed for cruise you
hardly need to touch the controls.

Dan Wilde
N948DW


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bob(at)frontrange-pc.com
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:01 am    Post subject: 701 elevator trim option Reply with quote

Thanks Dan, Tommy and Bobs. Electric trim it is.

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Bob Percival
701/Vair


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ronlee



Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 141

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:26 pm    Post subject: Re: 701 elevator trim option Reply with quote

I even have a larger trim tab on the horizontal elevator then the plans call for. Even with full up trim and vortex generators on the bottom of the elevator, coming in for a landing I need to keep a bit of back pressure on the stick to keep the plane slow enough for approach speed. I had to keep lots more back pressure before I installed the vg's. On the GA planes I have flown they could all be trimmed to hold the correct approach speed without any aft stick pressure, thereby easing the workload making an approach. Does anyone else's 701 have this unconventional characteristic on their plane?
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona


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graeme(at)coletoolcentre.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:52 pm    Post subject: 701 elevator trim option Reply with quote

What is your approach speed.

Graemecns

do not archive

---


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klondike(at)megalink.net
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:07 pm    Post subject: 701 elevator trim option Reply with quote

what does the trailing edge of your elevator look like? that of the early
701's or similar to the 601?
---


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NYTerminat(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:10 pm    Post subject: 701 elevator trim option Reply with quote

Ron,
Did you leave the trailing edge of the elevator with the bend or straighten it out?


In a message dated 2/22/2009 10:08:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, klondike(at)megalink.net writes:
[quote]--> Zenith701801-List message posted by: "fritz" <klondike(at)megalink.net>

what does the trailing edge of your elevator look like? that of the early
701's or similar to the 601?
---


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ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:45 pm    Post subject: 701 elevator trim option Reply with quote

Hello Ron,

I also made my trim tab double the width of the one in the plans (from comments from pilots while building years ago...), does a great job, no problem for me in trimming for aproach.

For me works great 60 mph indicated with 15 D flaps in final. I like very much the feeling of the airplane at that approach speed, very solid even in turbulence. probably our altitude here (5,029 ft ASL). and also that we have a few trees "air shade" just before the numbers...

I keep 60 all the way until ground efect and flare. I practice often my aproach with engine in idle since basic. is a steep aproach with a very well timed flare, but I am shure will help eventualy in case of a engine off landing...
Is something I keep doing since my 2 cycle engine's flying.. 3 engine emergencies in 15 years of 2 Cycle ultralight flying, only one with some light (repairable) damage. no harm to me.

Saludos
Gary Gower
Flying from Chapala, Mexico.
701 912S 235 hrs

--- On Sun, 2/22/09, ronlee <rlee468(at)comcast.net> wrote:

Quote:
From: ronlee <rlee468(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: 701 elevator trim option
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009, 9:26 PM

Quote:
--> Zenith701801-List message posted by: "ronlee"
<rlee468(at)comcast.net>

I even have a larger trim tab on the horizontal elevator then the plans call
for. Even with full up trim and vortex generators on the bottom of the elevator,
coming in for a landing I need to keep a bit of back pressure on the stick to
keep the plane slow enough for approach speed. I had to keep lots more back
pressure before I installed the vg's. On the GA planes I have flown they
could all be trimmed to hold the correct approach speed without any aft stick
pressure, thereby easing the workload making an approach. Does anyone else's
701 have this unconventional characteristic on their plane?
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona

--------
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona


[quote][b]


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321PT



Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 40
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:11 am    Post subject: 701 elevator trim option Reply with quote

Ron:
This is just my technique; I do not try to trim out the back pressure. I leave the trim alone. If I have to go around at the last second, it makes the plane easier to control and one less thing to think about when you apply full power low to the ground. I do have the large trim tab and it seems to be quite effective, but to be honest I have not tried to trim it out for the approach. I do approach at 55 with no flaps to flair and touch down. I adjust RPM as needed to vary the steepness, but not the speed. Works great for me. The VGs under the elevator have helped with control all the way to the ground, I like them.
Paul Tipton
321PT
200 hours
[quote][b]


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dwilde(at)clearwire.net
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:25 am    Post subject: 701 elevator trim option Reply with quote

Paul Tipton wrote:
Quote:
Ron:
This is just my technique; I do not try to trim out the back
pressure. I leave the trim alone. If I have to go around at the last
second, it makes the plane easier to control and one less thing to
think about when you apply full power low to the ground. I do have
the large trim tab and it seems to be quite effective, but to be
honest I have not tried to trim it out for the approach. I do
approach at 55 with no flaps to flair and touch down. I adjust RPM
as needed to vary the steepness, but not the speed. Works great for
me. The VGs under the elevator have helped with control all the way
to the ground, I like them.
Paul Tipton
321PT
200 hours
*
*
I used the small trim tab that came with the unit and it works fine.

However I did straighten the trailing edge of the elevator before
installing the trim tab and I have the VGs installed.

I cross the end of the runway with 15 degrees of flaps at 50 mph and
have plenty of control. At 60 mph I would float down the runway for
quite a ways and maybe balloon a little if I wasn't smooth on the stick.

I also like to have back pressure on the stick. Doing touch and goes
with no back pressure requires applying forward pressure on the stick to
keep the nose down when you go to full power on climb out.

Dan Wilde
N948DW


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ronlee



Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 141

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: 701 elevator trim option Reply with quote

I did straighten the trailing edge of the elevator and that did help make the trim more effective in holding the nose up on landing. I then added the vortex generators which made the elevator trim still more effective but not quite enough to maintain a 60 MPH approach speed with out some stick back pressure. If I let the stick float with full up trim, throttle at idle it will maintain about 73MPH.
Going full throttle with full up trim can make for heavy forward stick pressure. I have a manual activation of my trim so it is as fast as I can move the leaver. The advice of a quick acting trim came from an Alaska bush pilot who said one wants to have a trim that gets off quick as possible on a go around.
All said and done I wouldn't want to be without an elevator trim, it makes flying so much more relaxing.
Ron Lee
Tucson, AZ


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ch701builder(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:48 am    Post subject: 701 elevator trim option Reply with quote

Ron,
I had thought about a manual trim. Do you have any pictures or any other information about your setup?

Thanks,
Keith
CH701 -- scratch

From: ronlee <rlee468(at)comcast.net>
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 10:33:59 AM
Subject: Re: 701 elevator trim option

--> Zenith701801-List message posted by: "ronlee" <rlee468(at)comcast.net (rlee468(at)comcast.net)>

I did straighten the trailing edge of the elevator and that did help make the trim more effective in holding the nose up on landing. I then added the vortex generators which made the elevator trim still more effective but not quite enough to maintain a 60 MPH approach speed with out some stick back pressure. If I let the stick float with full up trim, throttle at idle it will maintain about 73MPH.
Going full throttle with full up trim can make for heavy forward stick pressure. I have a manual activation of my trim so it is as fast as I can move the leaver. The advice of a quick acting trim came from an Alaska bush pilot who said one wants to have a trim that gets off quick as possible on a go around.
All said and done I wouldn't want to be without an elevator trim, it makes [quote][b]


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kmccune



Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:50 am    Post subject: Re: 701 elevator trim option Reply with quote

Yes I would like to see pics of a manual trim also.
Kevin
do nt archive


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stepinwolf



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 133
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:05 am    Post subject: Re: 701 elevator trim option Reply with quote

Count me in also, for any info on a manual trim setup. I had been thinking about this option for some time, and I'm glad to see that I'm not alone

Robert
701 & 750 Scratch


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kmccune



Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:59 am    Post subject: Re: 701 elevator trim option Reply with quote

Funny thing is I program, modify and repair automated machinery and the one thing its taught me is simple is better!
Here is what I was thinking of using.

Kevin


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stepinwolf



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 133
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:34 am    Post subject: 701 elevator trim option Reply with quote

Kevin,

I like the photo of manual trim control mechanism you posted, but my main worry would be how quick changes could be made in case of a " go-around ".

I actually started looking at a system for manually controlling the trim tab to get away from the delay that is seen when using an electric trim controller. I would expect that the one you have just included in your response, might take quite a few turns ( I only have two hands ) to get the trim back to it's take off position.

My past experience ( although limited ) has taught me that when landing in conditions that are not necessarily ideal, my two hand and two feet are very busy, so I would not want to be obliged to have to spend too much time turning the knob one way or the other, to try and get the trim tab, back to it's take off position. However in straight and level flight, the use of a screw type of controller would make fine tuning a pleasure.

Maby it's just me,,,, and thank's for the pic Surprised)

regards
Robert


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bob(at)frontrange-pc.com
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:09 pm    Post subject: 701 elevator trim option Reply with quote

I'm also interested in the mechanical trim details.

Also - those of you who have extended the trim, how much?
I think Gary Gower went 2x the plan length. What have others done?

Thanks

Bob Percival
701/Vair

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kmccune



Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:57 am    Post subject: Re: 701 elevator trim option Reply with quote

You are correct, it is not a quick adjust model.

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