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Oil filter

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alikatz(at)mbay.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:02 pm Post subject: Oil filter

Craigs works Great..



Best Regards

Jim

---

ChangDriver

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 266

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:14 am Post subject: Re: Oil filter

From the Yak-list Archives...Walt Lannon posted:



"I would recommend either ADC or Airwolf. My personal preference is the ADC micro-screen unit rather than the spin-on. ADC provides both types, Airwolf is spin-on only.

      

I would avoid cheap non STC'd systems which invariably utilize spin-on filters that are not capable of safely handling high scavange oil pressures.

      

Like most other things in aviation you get what you pay for.

     

Walt"



I installed the ADC micro-screen filter in my CJ.  In the past, ADC has also been a sponsor of ARS.  It is a well made product.



Contact Barry Hancock about installation as he did the install in my plane.  We put it on the firewall after relocating the air start solenoid (may not have to do this on later model CJs).  I've also seen pictures of it placed in the belly of the aircraft.



Craig

cpayne(at)joimail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:55 am Post subject: Oil filter

I let the quoted post from Walt pass the first time because it wasn't specifically aimed at the system I sell. But now I see it has been offerred up as specific answer to questions about the quality of the goods I sell.

  

 Just what kinds of "high scavage oil pressures" are we talking about here?

  

  

 Craig Payne

 cpayne(at)joimail.com (cpayne(at)joimail.com)

  

  

 

  [quote][b]

wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:20 am Post subject: Oil filter

Depending on temperature of the oil scavenge pressure  could reach 200 psi or more.  There is no pressure regulator in the  system.

  

 Harvard trainers which operated throughout the Canadian  winters were equipped with an in-line, adjustable, bypass valve which, at  83 PSI would open full line capacity directly to the oil tank.  This  bypassed the oil cooler and the lower capacity valve located there. This  system not installed on the T6.

  

 Craig, I have no idea what system you sell nor was I even  aware that you sold one, but If that is the case may I suggest you compare the  internal construction of your filter unit to a standard, certificated,  aircraft oil filter ( Champion, etc.).

 If it compares favourably in paper element thickness, can  wall thickness and other pressure retaining features it should be  fine. 

  

 Walt 

  

    

  

 [quote]   ---

cpayne(at)joimail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:20 pm Post subject: Oil filter

Walt,



Thanks for the explanation. I know what I have, the problem was a careless post on the 'list in reply to a question about the viability of the system I sell. The elements I sell have a 200PSI rating, they are industrial grade not automotive. My base units have a 15PSI bypass valve with in/out taps for those who want to rig a monitor. I can also get other PSI settings as well. There are dozens of CJ's out there with the same setup, running for many years now.



The original post about a cold weather failure was not very inclusive about the nature of the installation. Therein, may lie the problem. My install instructions stress the necessity of an end-to-end solution.



I can still get the heavy duty Marion elements with 'glass media but you can't cut them open and peel back the media. Myself, I send out a sample from each change and keep an analysis track.



Craig Payne

keithmckinley

Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Oil filter

For what it's worth I purchased a CJ  with a system, if not Craig's, is exactly the same right down to the Marion Hyd Filter.



Recently the system suffered a catastrophic failure on the ground. 



I use Phillips 25-60W radial engine oil and my aircraft had been in an unheated hangar during a cold night. It was about 25 degrees the morning I was to fly. Prior to engine start, I had my sump and tank heater on for two hours. I did not have a strip heater on my oil cooler. Prior to engine start the oil temp indicated just above 10C



After engine start, pressure and temp were normal for the conditions and the engine was at idle for 2-3 minutes before I added power to taxi.



As I added power the system failed. The oil filter actually blew up like a balloon, but it was the threaded shaft ( for the filter) on the housing that suffered a shear failure.



I do know that even cold hyd fluid has a lot less viscosity than my engine oil. I also know that the by-pass in the housing was insufficient in my case.

It's very small, maybe 1/8 or 3/16 in diameter. Also, Without going back to my logs I was about 25 hours from the last oil change. I suspect a combination of the small filter size and 10 micron paper as well as the small by-pass led to the failure.



It's up to you to evaluate each system for what it was designed to do, what you plan to do with it, and how your operational environment will affect it



I've installed the ADC spin on system for radial engines. I like the fact that it uses aviation grade oil filters, it is STC'd, it has a very large by-pass, and can accept a chip detector system.



To each his own.



Keith

cpayne(at)joimail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:55 am Post subject: Oil Filter

Oh well, here we go again. Oil filtration systems on the CJ can be, and have been installed several different ways. Just because a particular filter element is used, does NOT define the layout of the installation.

  

 IMHO, in cold weather operations one proven failure mode is the built-in Oil Cooler Bypass Valve. Often this valve becomes gummed up with carbon sludge and fails to function properly, allowing pressures to build "upstream". Excess pressure has been known to rupture oil coolers in both CJ's and Yaks. Without  a properly functioning Filter Bypass built into the filter base, the element could rupture as well. It takes BOTH bypass valves working to provide a path for high pressure oil.

  

 Another discussion could be had about WHAT should be done in cold weather BEFORE the start switch is pushed and HOW the engine should be warmed up. I have started my CJ in below freezing weather, with the oil filter installed, and have seen no failures. However, I did see the oil pressure go to zero, in flight, because my shutters were jammed open in cold temps.  Another question is WHAT the effect of cold starting has on long-term life of the engine.

  

  

 Craig Payne

 cpayne(at)joimail.com (cpayne(at)joimail.com)

  

  

 

  [quote][b]

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:34 pm Post subject: Oil filter

Keith, you said:  "I suspect a combination of the small filter size and 10 micron 

paper as well as the small by-pass led to the failure." 

  

 Ok.  I am sure that these were contributing factors, but hey... are you saying 

that you do not think that the temperature and the viscosity of the oil had 

anything to do with this?  

  

 The engine block in your aircraft was dead cold.  Even if the sump and oil 

tank came up to temp in two hours, (which I have to wonder about) you have 

to realize that the oil in that oil cooler was colder than ... well... 

real cold (and so was the majority of the rest of a rather large motor).  

  

 I suspect your oil filter actually failed from an extreme overpressure due to 

cold and thick oil.  We're talking about a gear driven pump design here!  

  

 I agree totally that the filter in your aircraft failed first, and that proves it was 

 the weak link in the chain.  But I also remember seeing an M-14 blow the 

 oil cooler apart like a freaking hand grenade when the whole engine was 

 not pre-heated and there was a thick slug of cold oil in the oil cooler.  

  

 I have flown engines with a tank pre-heater, a sump pre-heater and an oil 

 filter by-pass valve that is thermostat controlled and with all that, I have 

 NEVER seen those engines ready to taxi in that kind of temperature in two 

 minutes... even after having it left the electric heaters on all night. 

  

 Stop and think.. some of your oil was pre-heated.  When that oil hit your oil 

temp sensor, of course it will "look about right", but the engine itself is 

anything BUT warmed up in two minutes!  

  

 The original Russian design used an oil dilution system.  No one really likes that

system, but if operated properly it totally avoids failures of this nature.  I am 

not recommending that we use it, but if we decide to go to something else, we are 

moving into the realm of experimental design.  Your new filter may indeed be STC'ed, 

but my bet is that you have simply moved the first weak point (filter) to a NEW weak

point.. such as the oil cooler, or a hose.. or .... whatever. 

  

 I am not saying this to disagree about your selection of a good oil filter, far 

from it.  What I am saying is that I do not know a radial engine on the planet that 

is ready to taxi in two minutes after a 25 degree Fahrenheit start-up without 

a complete engine pre-heat prior to start.  

  

 Just my 2 cents, but something to at least think about. 

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 

  

  

 

   From: keithmckinley <keith.mckinley(at)townisp.com>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2009 7:57:29 PM

Subject: Re: Oil filter



--> Yak-List message posted by: "keithmckinley" <keith.mckinley(at)townisp.com (keith.mckinley(at)townisp.com)>



For what it's worth I purchased a CJ  with a system, if not Craig's, is exactly the same right down to the Marion Hyd Filter.



Recently the system suffered a catastrophic failure on the ground. 



I use Phillips 25-60W radial engine oil and my aircraft had been in an unheated hangar during a cold night. It was about 25 degrees the morning I was to fly. Prior to engine start, I had my sump and tank  heater on for two hours. I did not have a strip heater on my oil cooler. Prior to engine start the oil temp indicated just above 10C



After engine start, pressure and temp were normal for the conditions and the engine was at idle for 2-3 minutes before I added power to taxi.



As I added power the system failed. The oil filter actually blew up like a balloon, but it was the threaded shaft ( for the filter) on the housing that suffered a shear failure.



I do know that even cold hyd fluid has a lot less viscosity than my engine oil. I also know that the by-pass in the housing was insufficient in my case.

It's very small, maybe 1/8 or 3/16 in diameter. Also, Without going back to my logs I was about 25 hours from the last oil change. I suspect a combination of the small filter size and 10 micron paper as well as the small by-pass led to the failure.



It's up to you to evaluate each system for what it was designed to do, what you  plan to do with it, and how your operational environment will affect it



I've installed the ADC spin on system for radial engines. I like the fact that it uses aviation grade oil filters, it is STC'd, it has a very large by-pass, and can accept a chip detector system.



To each his own.



Keith



--------

Keith McKinley

700 HS

KFIT





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/vibsp;                 -Matt Dralle, ===========

 [quote][b]

talew(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:13 pm Post subject: Oil filter

keithmckinley

Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:50 am Post subject: Re: Oil filter

I just stated the fact of my failure. I wasn't impugning the set up you sell. You or anyone can take it for what it's worth or not.



Maybe my ground operations were the cause maybe not. But if you really want to call a spade a spade you shouldn't be putting a hydraulic filter made for a damn log splitter on an airplane.



Fire away.



Keith

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:39 am Post subject: Oil filter

Keith I don't have a dog in this fight... I don't sell filters, and in fact my engine is completely stock in this regard.  So hey... I don't know beans about which filter anyone should use and I am sure your experiences using them is worthwhile telling people about. 

  

 Your first posting mentioned increasing engine RPM to taxi the aircraft, 2 minutes after starting on a 25 degree day with an oil tank and sump pre-heater operating about 2 hours first.  My response is simple.  Calling a spade a spade: I don't think that is anywhere near enough time to warm up an engine under these conditions and anyone doing what you did is going to subject the engine to extreme stress as evidenced by the fact that OIL COOLERS HAVE BLOWN UP UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES.   

  

 If you or anyone else reading this wants to ignore my opinion in this matter, that is up to them.  I really could care less.  

  

 Mark Bitterlich  

 N50YK

  

 

 

    From: keithmckinley <keith.mckinley(at)townisp.com>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2009 8:50:52 AM

Subject: Re: Oil filter



--> Yak-List message posted by: "keithmckinley" <keith.mckinley(at)townisp.com (keith.mckinley(at)townisp.com)>



I just stated the fact of my failure. I wasn't impugning the set up you sell. You or anyone can take it for what it's worth or not.



Maybe my ground operations were the cause maybe not. But if you really want to call a spade a spade you shouldn't be putting a hydraulic filter made for a damn log splitter on an airplane.



Fire away.



Keith



--------

Keith McKinley

700  HS

KFIT





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=233682#233682



   bsp;               -Matt Dralle, List Ad=========

 [quote][b]

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:57 am Post subject: Oil filter

I'll put in my 2 cent worth.

  

 I've used a Marion S10 filter on my M-14p for all of its 1,500 hours.   I believe its been a major (if not the major) component along with the  pre-oiler, that has kept my running pretty damn well.  Compressions still  in the low 70's as of last annual.  This filter though not an "approved"  aviation filter looks just a beefy on the inside as the approved ones I've cut  open.  I like the fact that I can cut out the paper filter accordion, lay  it out to drain than check it for metal.  Being a 10 micron filter I'm  real confident its doing its job.  It's price allows me to change it more  often which is an incentive to anyone under BO's plans.

  

 Now being a Florida boy, I have no need for pre-heat. BUT I've some  experience with the problem BUT never in the extremes.  Quite regularly on  the B-24, after starting (away from sunshine of FL) we warm up at a max of  1,000 rpm until the temp is a "STEADY" 40C or better.  The reason is  we'll see the oil temp rise after start to above 40C and than maybe 2 minutes  later, drop significantly cold again.  Reason?  The cold oil back in  the cooler hit the sensor on the way into the engine.  It is usually close  to 5 minutes or more before we can exceed 1,000 rpms for taxi. 

  

 Oil dilution system was (I was told) "invented" by the Poles at the  beginning of WW2.  The Germans supposedly picked it up from them, and  the allies followed suit.  It is not meant to be a long term procedure for  cold weather.  You add enough fuel from one of your fuel tanks, to keep the  oil thinned out for the length of time you will have the engine shut down.   That is why that switch is spring loaded OFF.  There were tables that told  the crew how long (seconds or minutes) to hold the switch open for the length of  time the engine was to be shut down.  I never saw a table go beyond 24  hours.  And once you used the system you were restricted on how soon you  could start the engine again.  I hope my memory is still good!!

  

 My CJ showed up from China with a little blank on the oil cooler, oil  tank, and oil sump.  It of course had an oil dilution  system.  ( With the change to the M-14p, I removed the oil dilution  system.  I now use the valve for the smoke system and the switch for  the pre-oiler).  I do not and never have used multi grade oil.  I  go from using 50 (100w) in the winter to 60 (120W).  I just do not envision  myself flying my CJ in really cold climates.  IF I did, I would put on a  restriction plate on the oil cooler inlet.  Also I'd put a  electric preheat blank -not only on the oil tank - but the cooler as well. I'd  most likely go to a multi grade oil too.

  

 We'll heard of the stories of the Alaska bush pilots, who in the winter,  would drain their oil while still warm from their engines and take it into their  beds with them.  The next day, they'd cook it over a fire, and pour into  their engine when ready to start.  (Some still do that I'm told.)   Anyway extreme temps require extreme measures to able to operate.  And when  you look at the cost of these pre-heat systems over what it might cost in fixing  problems caused by the oil being to cold.  That might be the "cheap  answer"

  

  

  In a message dated 3/8/2009 2:40:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  yakplt(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		        Keith I don't have a dog in this fight... I don't sell filters, and in    fact my engine is completely stock in this regard.  So hey... I don't    know beans about which filter anyone should use and I am sure your experiences    using them is worthwhile telling people about. 

    

   Your first posting mentioned increasing engine RPM to taxi the aircraft,    2 minutes after starting on a 25 degree day with an oil tank and sump    pre-heater operating about 2 hours first.  My response is simple.     Calling a spade a spade: I don't think that is anywhere near enough time to    warm up an engine under these conditions and anyone doing what you did is    going to subject the engine to extreme stress as evidenced by the fact that    OIL COOLERS HAVE BLOWN UP UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES.   

    

   If you or anyone else reading this wants to ignore my opinion in this    matter, that is up to them.  I really could care less.  

    

   Mark Bitterlich  

   N50YK

    

   

 

            From: keithmckinley    <keith.mckinley(at)townisp.com>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2009 8:50:52    AM

Subject: Re: Oil    filter



--> Yak-List message posted by: "keithmckinley" <keith.mckinley(at)townisp.com (keith.mckinley(at)townisp.com)>



I    just stated the fact of my failure. I wasn't impugning the set up you sell.    You or anyone can take it for what it's worth or not.



Maybe my ground    operations were the cause maybe not. But if you really want to call a spade a    spade you shouldn't be putting a hydraulic filter made for a damn log splitter    on an airplane.



Fire away.



Keith



--------

Keith    McKinley

700 HS

KFIT





Read this topic online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=233682#233682



     bsp;               -Matt Dralle, List    Ad=========

 	  Quote: 	
		  



="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	


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  [quote][b]

keithmckinley

Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: Oil filter

Mark,



I agree, that's why I posted the details as best I could remember. Hell other than my 75 hours of round engine time courtesy of the Navy and my 100 hours in a C-152 I'm a jet guy learning about this piston stuff more and more every day. 



As for the oil. I'd be curious what others operating in colder climes use in the winter months. As I said I just don't know enough right now to be comfortable switching oils around without some facts.



For the record the warm up was more than 2 minutes but obviously needed to be 10-15. before advancing the throttle. I'm also guessing that roughly 25% of the oil (cooler and lines) was not heated

Keith

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:09 pm Post subject: Oil filter

My 2 cent reply to this message is:  To the best of my knowledge and

experience, every word this man says is exactly dead on accurate, and I

wish I could have said it as well.  



Mark Bitterlich

N50YK



 



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:11 pm Post subject: Oil filter

Thanks Keith.  Nice letter.  



Mark



P.s.  I built a log splitter from an EA-6B wing fold actuator ... And I

should probably mention it was from a crashed aircraft and not one from

the flight line.    



 



--

wdjester(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:22 pm Post subject: Oil filter

All:  I just purchases a Kimball Enterprises oil shut off valve and separate 

scavenge pump.  I got pictures from Jim Kimball on the installation.  The 

scavenge pump is not a problem.  However, the oil shit off valve does not 

fit where Kimball says to put it.  The machined part is much larger than the 

one in the pictures.  Has anyone installed the newly machined oil shut off 

valve on their Yak 52.  If yes, how did you do it?



Dave Jester

---

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:05 pm Post subject: Oil filter

In a message dated 3/9/2009 7:22:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  wdjester(at)cox.net writes:

  

 Hay Goatboy!

  

 Check your spell checker!   Where is that shit off valve  located??  Man I want to see one of them!  ))))

  

 Pappy

  

 [quote]-->    Yak-List message posted by: "Dave \"Goatboy\" Jester"    <wdjester(at)cox.net>



All:  I just purchases a Kimball    Enterprises oil shut off valve and separate 

scavenge pump.  I got    pictures from Jim Kimball on the installation.  The 

scavenge pump is    not a problem.  However, the oil shit off valve does not 

fit where    Kimball says to put it.  The machined part is much larger than the    

one in the pictures.  Has anyone installed the newly machined oil    shut off 

valve on their Yak 52.  If yes, how did you do    it?



Dave Jester

---

wdjester(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:18 pm Post subject: Oil filter

Well damn.  Good eye Pappy.  I stand corrected. I meant I  purchased an oil shut off valve....in my defense the u is next to the i on the  keyboard.  

 [quote]   ---

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