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colind
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Sydney, Australia
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 Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:56 am Post subject: Paints vs Paints |
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I'm almost regretting raising this, already, but... as I will soon be
facing the job of painting my KF4, I am trying to balance all the
cost/benefit/risk/etc/etc factors involved in this part of the project.
Everyone talks in glowing terms about Polytone/Polyfibre , and I'm sure
that its all correct, however, I have been talking to a number of friends
who have long experience in both automotive and industrial paints/coatings
and, I asked them specifically about using these types of paints on the
Kitfox, and am intrigued by some of the things that they have told me.
In connection with automotive paints - with the increase in the number of
flexible body panels (especially bumpers), usually made from poly vinyls,
various new paints have been compounded to cope with the flex and
distortion that these are subjected to, without crazing/cracking. There
are also a number of modifiers to add to certain standard acrylics and
lacquers to make them flexible and eliminate(?) craking and crazing. I've
seen some pretty impressive samples.
As to inductrial coatings, there are a number of products which are
designed for very flixible substrates, such as the vinyl and fabrics that
are used on the sides of Tautliners. These allow for very high gloss and
high resolution graphics as well as broad area fills on materials which
get rolled up into a spiral on a daily basis. While wings and fuselage
panels are subjected to movement, it certianly is not that to that degree.
There are also some specialty water base urethane paints which are very
flexible.
Anyway, my question is, what knowledge is available in the Kitfox
Brains-Trust that I can tap into on this subject? Info and guidance is
very welcome, but I can do without a beating. I need my strength to finish
the 'Fox.
Regards
Colin Durey
Sydney
+61-418-677073 (M)
+61-2-945466162 (F)
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_________________
Colin Durey
Sydney
+61-418-677073 |
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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:38 am Post subject: Paints vs Paints |
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Colin,
You pose an excellent question. I do know that in the past, auto finishes
would eventually begin to crack. Also in the old days the oily film that
appeared on the inside of the windsheild was the plasticisers in the vinyl
dsh cap gassing out. The failure of this item in the UV of the sun
encouraged the cottage industry that produces the protective dash caps. I
don't know about the more modern finishes, but would consider this. The
roll down - roll up curtains are replacabel with the removal of a couple of
bolts in the event they fail (or the need for a graphics change). The same
can be said for the bumpers etc. The aftermarket dash caps provided a cheap
and easily replaced dashboard cover. And with an automoblile, they become
throw away items after five or six years. My Model IV has been flying
almost six years and I expect the finish to last at least another six or
more.
This probably doesn't help much, and is only presented as food for thought.
Lowell
---
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vadert(at)telusplanet.net
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:15 am Post subject: Paints vs Paints |
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FLIER(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:09 am Post subject: Paints vs Paints |
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I personally have a strong opinion and that's to use
only coatings designed and tested to fill and cover
polyester fabric for aviation use.
I've seen too many glossy finished fabric jobs that
turned into cracked and spider-webbed messes within a
few years. Without extensive testing one cannot draw
conclusions about the suitability, durability, or
even flame retardant capabilities of auto finishes on
fabric.
Spending some extra money on proven systems more than
pays for what a new cover job might cost in the
future. Also, from a resale standpoint, use of an
approved aircraft fabric coating system is a benefit.
IMHO...
Regards,
Ted
--- Original Message ---
From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>
To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Paints vs Paints
| Quote: |
<lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>
|
| Quote: |
Colin,
You pose an excellent question. I do know that in
the past, auto finishes
|
| Quote: | would eventually begin to crack. Also in the old
days the oily film that
|
| Quote: | appeared on the inside of the windsheild was the
plasticisers in the vinyl
|
| Quote: | dsh cap gassing out. The failure of this item in
the UV of the sun
|
| Quote: | encouraged the cottage industry that produces the
protective dash caps. I
|
| Quote: | don't know about the more modern finishes, but
would consider this. The
|
| Quote: | roll down - roll up curtains are replacabel with the
removal of a couple of
|
| Quote: | bolts in the event they fail (or the need for a
graphics change). The same
|
| Quote: | can be said for the bumpers etc. The aftermarket
dash caps provided a cheap
|
| Quote: | and easily replaced dashboard cover. And with an
automoblile, they become
|
| Quote: | throw away items after five or six years. My Model
IV has been flying
|
| Quote: | almost six years and I expect the finish to last at
least another six or
|
| Quote: | more.
This probably doesn't help much, and is only
presented as food for thought.
|
[quote]
Lowell
---
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kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:58 am Post subject: Paints vs Paints |
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Steve Wittman perished when his automotive paint and aeromotive fabric chose to fly in "loose formation" with the rest of the aircraft.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "flier" <FLIER(at)sbcglobal.net>
[quote]
I personally have a strong opinion and that's to use
only coatings designed and tested to fill and cover
polyester fabric for aviation use.
I've seen too many glossy finished fabric jobs that
turned into cracked and spider-webbed messes within a
few years. Without extensive testing one cannot draw
conclusions about the suitability, durability, or
even flame retardant capabilities of auto finishes on
fabric.
Spending some extra money on proven systems more than
pays for what a new cover job might cost in the
future. Also, from a resale standpoint, use of an
approved aircraft fabric coating system is a benefit.
IMHO...
Regards,
Ted
--- Original Message ---
From: "Lowell Fitt"
To:
Subject: Re: Paints vs Paints
>
>
>Colin,
>
>You pose an excellent question. I do know that in
the past, auto finishes
>would eventually begin to crack. Also in the old
days the oily film that
>appeared on the inside of the windsheild was the
plasticisers in the vinyl
>dsh cap gassing out. The failure of this item in
the UV of the sun
>encouraged the cottage industry that produces the
protective dash caps. I
>don't know about the more modern finishes, but
would consider this. The
>roll down - roll up curtains are replacabel with the
removal of a couple of
>bolts in the event they fail (or the need for a
graphics change). The same
>can be said for the bumpers etc. The aftermarket
dash caps provided a cheap
>and easily replaced dashboard cover. And with an
automoblile, they become
>throw away items after five or six years. My Model
IV has been flying
>almost six years and I expect the finish to last at
least another six or
>more.
>
>This probably doesn't help much, and is only
presented as food for thought.
>
>Lowell
>
>---
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Graeme Toft
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:02 pm Post subject: Paints vs Paints |
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Hi Colin, I used 2 pack automotive paint on my KF 1 and although it went on
well and looked great it didnt take long to start cracking around where hard
points met with flexible surfaces. I used a plasticiser that was recommended
but still ended up having problems. My 1V has Polyfiber paint and it has an
almost rubbery feel but just to see how good it was when I stripped the
fabric from the wings, I folded it and rubbed each surface like crazy in an
attempt to get it to peel. After about 15 minutes it was still in place so
that was proof positive to me to use it again. Its bloody expensive as you
have no doubt discovered but it going to last a long time and will possibly
save a lot of grief in the future. I have been told that Polyfiber in
Melbourne is probably the most expensive outlet. I just received a quote of
$1850 for materials. (wings only). Freight on dangerous goods is prohibitive
so check around Sydney. Ceconite is also a cheaper option but I know nothing
about its application or durability in comparison to Polyfiber. Aviaquip did
tell me however that Skyfox used a blend of automotive and Polyfiber paint
for a reasonable result.
Cheers
Graeme
---
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janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:37 pm Post subject: Paints vs Paints |
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I used ICI Imron on my plane, it's used for bumpers etc on cars and use on
our helicopters for years with very good results - and that's saying
something with all the shaking that goes on at times. Time will tell but
it's been painted 3 years (my plane) and no sign of cracking yet but of
course only done a few flights..
From: "Graeme Toft" <msm(at)byterocky.net>
Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Paints vs Paints
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 08:01:30 +1000
Hi Colin, I used 2 pack automotive paint on my KF 1 and although it went on
well and looked great it didnt take long to start cracking around where hard
points met with flexible surfaces. I used a plasticiser that was recommended
but still ended up having problems. My 1V has Polyfiber paint and it has an
almost rubbery feel but just to see how good it was when I stripped the
fabric from the wings, I folded it and rubbed each surface like crazy in an
attempt to get it to peel. After about 15 minutes it was still in place so
that was proof positive to me to use it again. Its bloody expensive as you
have no doubt discovered but it going to last a long time and will possibly
save a lot of grief in the future. I have been told that Polyfiber in
Melbourne is probably the most expensive outlet. I just received a quote of
$1850 for materials. (wings only). Freight on dangerous goods is prohibitive
so check around Sydney. Ceconite is also a cheaper option but I know nothing
about its application or durability in comparison to Polyfiber. Aviaquip did
tell me however that Skyfox used a blend of automotive and Polyfiber paint
for a reasonable result.
Cheers
Graeme
---
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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Ceashman(at)AOL.COM
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:40 pm Post subject: Paints vs Paints |
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| Quote: | >Steve Wittman perished when his automotive paint and aeromotive fabric
chose to fly in >>"loose formation" with the rest of the aircraft.
|
What is "aeromotive fabric"?
I do know that automobile paint is used very successfully on fabric covered
aircraft.
Though, I would not suggest to use lacquer even if it were plasticized with
flex additives. But these days it is rather difficult to find lacquer, people
are moving or have moved to Urethane coatings in the car repair business. If
you are using an automobile urethane make sure it is a polyurethane or an
acrylic urethane and not a converted alkyd such as acrylic enamel. These are the
coatings that will provide ring cracks like a spider web after some time even
though you add the flex additives.
I used a car repair paint on my IV and have had no problem and will not have
a problem because the flex additive used will not leach out (evaporate) and
render the coating inflexible.
The trouble with all of this is that if you are a even a little skeptical
about using "the unknown" go directly to the Polyfiber folks and put your mind at
rest.
The main thing is that you use the silver Polyspray before you consider any
type of top coat system
Eric Ashman, Atlanta
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