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starter woes

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bu131(at)swbell.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:30 pm Post subject: starter woes

my 55m today left me in the middle of nowhere. I have the kimball dual solenoid system without a filter, when pressure exceeds 600 psi it dumps the stuff out. I have replaced the old russian starter dual system with a button that combines the vibrator and the wire to the solenoid that puts air into the back of the engine. Today for the first time since I have owned the plane, after sitting for 2 months it started on the first blade, then of course went to get a burger 30 miles out and sure enough, with 600 psi in the tank, all I get is a bit of hissing at the push button and no motion of the prop, I replaced the solenoid (since I have a second one on board for dumping air wishing that that will make it come home) but no way, i think that the chances of any repair go down in direct  proportion of the number of lookers around the airplane. 

 any ideas?I suspect that there is gunk in the system. 

 appreciate any help.

 stuck in Lancaster texas (KLNC)

 andres

 [quote][b]

frank(at)orionite.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject: starter woes

Check your battery voltage. If it's low it can  cause the solenoid to not operate. 

 [quote]   ---

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:11 pm Post subject: starter woes

This may sound too simple, but did you move the prop about 20  degrees and try starting it again?  Sometimes when everything lines up a  certain way, it will just hiss when you hit the start button.   Many  an M14 has experienced this problem.

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

bu131(at)swbell.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:21 pm Post subject: starter woes

will check the volts tomorrow when I go back

thanks for the suggestion

andres

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:38 pm Post subject: starter woes

Andre, also check the flexible air line going to the air start  spider.  I have seen them crack due to the twist it.  The one on my  airplane (Yak 52) was one of them.  All it did was hiss when I hit the  start button.

 Dennis

 [quote]   ---

alikatz(at)mbay.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:29 pm Post subject: starter woes

Chinese Engines as well....

 [quote]   ---

bu131(at)swbell.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:40 pm Post subject: starter woes

we moved the prop into many positions I had seen this problem before but the prop did move a bit every time, this time I got no movement at all at the prop, we rotated it back, forwards to no avail

thanks

will check the line, the volts, and see what happens tomorrow

thanks

a

ronwasson

Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 30

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:16 pm Post subject: starter woes

Leaky exhaust valve. Push start valve and listen to the exhaust and  

you will hear a hiss . Starter is stuck on the cylinder and won't  

advance air distributor.  Move prop a blade and it will start . You  

move it off the leaking cylinder to allow starter to pop air to good  

cylinder.  Will only occur if the prop stops on that cylinder. Some  

times it will advance to that cylinder and stop.  Get it started  

before that cylinder comes around or you have move the prop pass that  

cylinder again  As the engine warms up it should stop sticking but  

will get worse with every run. Fix is to grind valve to stop  

sticking / leaking

On Mar 20, 2009, at 10:39 PM, Dr Andre Katz wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 we moved the prop into many positions I had seen this problem before  

 but the prop did move a bit every time, this time I got no movement  

 at all at the prop, we rotated it back, forwards to no avail

 thanks

 will check the line, the volts, and see what happens tomorrow

 thanks

 a

cpayne(at)joimail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:05 am Post subject: starter woes

Woe to anyone stuck in the boonies! Over the years I have encountered numerous reasons for not hearing that satisfying "pop" and subsequent swinging of the blades. And, it happened recently, just before  my annual, couldn't wait a few weeks.

  

 Common causes on stock systems:

  

 - Low air pressure: get more air or hand prop in emergency, use chocks!

 - Tight exhaust valve: easy to get around by rotating the prop to another cylinder.

 - Stuck starter solenoid valve, due to rust: use thumb lever on valve to actuate, this takes outside help.

 - Low voltage on battery: again the thumb lever will help, but only if the spark generator works too.

 - Leaking air hose: you should be able to hear the leak and isolate the cause.

  

 My recent problems: a small ring of corrosion under the ground terminal ring on the battery which could not be seen until the connection was removed. Also, at the VAC show, folks hooked me up with an "air bottle". Yep, 78% of what the engine normally fires on contains nitrogen, it just doesn't like 100%.

  

  

 Craig Payne

 cpayne(at)joimail.com (cpayne(at)joimail.com)

  

  

 

  [quote][b]

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:12 am Post subject: starter woes

Lots of good suggestions given: 

 1.  Move prop... you did that with no help. 

2.  Check air pressure, make sure it is where it should be.  Assume you did that too. 

3.  Check for obvious line leaks (you probably did that too).  

  

 Now some new stuff, assuming this is the stock Russian starter solenoid.  

 A.  It has a manual level on it... hopefully.  Some of the later versions do not.

Simply stay clear of the prop, and pull on the little lever and see if the engine cranks. 

If it does proceed to step B. 

  

 B.  Pull the top fitting off the air starter solenoid.  This is the opposite end 

from where the cannon plug goes.  Squirt in as much WD-40 as you can.  Let it sit 

for awhile and do that again.  And again.  And again.  I think you get the point. 

 Now try it again electrically.  This usually fixes it... for a LITTLE while.  Replace

it as soon as possible.  

  

 Of course doing all this is easy on a YAK-50 where you can shut off the main air 

supply with a manual valve, not sure what you have on that 55.  You may have to drain

the whole system and go from there. 

  

 You say you REPLACED THE STARTER VALVE ITSELF?  If that is the case, then ignore all

of the above.  

  

 Remove air line to starter distributor and manually open the valve with the manual lever

a few times and you will see if you get good air flow.  Stand BACK, because crap will 

fly everywhere with that line open.

   

 If all this checks good and you still can not get it to crank, then it may be the 

starter distributor itself... highly UNLIKELY... and hope to goodness it is not, because

it is a sorry son of a gun to replace.  DO NOT TRY IT YOURSELF!  Do not let ANYONE other

than a very qualified person replace that thing!  WHEW.  

  

 Lastly, if you are stuck someplace... just prop the thing.  It usually starts very 

easily propping it.  

  

 Since your starter vibrator is still good, just bleed all the air out, ALL THE AIR MIND 

YOU!!!  Then just set it up for a normal start, and when the guy propping it yells 

contact, hit the starter button and when it fires, turn on the mags as usual.  No need 

to ever be stuck anywhere with this problem.  Doing it all by yourself is pretty tough

I admit.  

  

 Best of Luck

 Mark Bitterlich

 

   From: Dr Andre Katz <bu131(at)swbell.net>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 6:26:50 PM

Subject: starter woes



     my 55m today left me in the middle of nowhere. I have the kimball dual solenoid system without a filter, when pressure exceeds 600 psi it dumps the stuff out. I have replaced the old russian starter dual system with a button that combines the vibrator and the wire to the solenoid that puts air into the back of the engine. Today for the first time since I have owned the plane, after sitting for 2 months it started on the first blade, then of course went to get a burger 30 miles out and sure enough, with 600 psi in the tank, all I get is a bit of hissing at the push button and no motion of the prop, I replaced the solenoid (since I have a second one on board for dumping air wishing that that will make it come home) but no way, i think that the chances of any repair go down in direct  proportion of the number of lookers around the airplane. 

 any ideas?I suspect that there is gunk in the system. 

 appreciate any help.

 stuck in Lancaster texas (KLNC)

 andres

[quote][b][b]

dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:36 am Post subject: starter woes

If you have the type of QDF-1 valve which has the lever on it try depresing that, if it still refuses to stop hissing take off the line going TO the start sypder on the engione, next, locate the line going TO the QDF-1 start valve, go the the far end of that line and remove the B nut.  Fill that line(which goes to the QDF1) with WD40.  Place a shop towl over the start spyder end and depress the QDF-1 lever or hit the start button.  This should flush out and crap.  If this does not work, replace the QDF-1.  Have them in stock if you need one.

   

 Best,

 Doug 

 On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Dr Andre Katz <bu131(at)swbell.net (bu131(at)swbell.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		       my 55m today left me in the middle of nowhere. I have the kimball dual solenoid system without a filter, when pressure exceeds 600 psi it dumps the stuff out. I have replaced the old russian starter dual system with a button that combines the vibrator and the wire to the solenoid that puts air into the back of the engine. Today for the first time since I have owned the plane, after sitting for 2 months it started on the first blade, then of course went to get a burger 30 miles out and sure enough, with 600 psi in the tank, all I get is a bit of hissing at the push button and no motion of the prop, I replaced the solenoid (since I have a second one on board for dumping air wishing that that will make it come home) but no way, i think that the chances of any repair go down in direct  proportion of the number of lookers around the airplane. 

  any ideas?I suspect that there is gunk in the system. 

 appreciate any help.

 stuck in Lancaster texas (KLNC)

 andres

 	  Quote: 	
		  



et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	


-- 

Always Yakin,

Doug Sapp

Phone 509-826-4610

Fax 509-826-3644

  [quote][b]

bu131(at)swbell.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:32 pm Post subject: starter woes

the rescue party was sent to LNC, this is what I really love about aviation, 5 volunteers 2 airplanes, 80 bucks in new batteries (turned out not needed) and a round of burgers that I had to buy for all involved returned blackmagic to her roosting place. 

thanks to all suggestions, I learned a lot.

Also 2 great guys in LNC that also went out of their way to help.

We measured the voltage with a voltmeter, show 28 volts, well perhaps volts ok but amperage bad (been there done that) so we hooked a brand new battery piggy back and no motion of the prop, only hiss at the rear of the case (somewhere). Not a valve. Measured capacitance at the kimball electric starter solenoid and no juice. The culprit was a bad wire from the switch to the solenoid. We found a hot line outside the circuit that drove the dump solenoid and voila! except that the prop will turn when the dump switch was energized but the engine will not start. After emptying the tank once, it doomed on me that the shower of sparks needed to be activated.  So one hand in the dump switch, one in the primer, the other in the original start button for the vibrator and the mouth in the throttle to pump got it started. Now it resting with a smile in the hangar like a queen that she is.

This is whats great about yakking and friends to help.

the 55m has a different system than the cj'  I have a valve from the cj and could not install it in the 55 due to space problems. Single switch no bypass. The prop turning trick did not work, of course it was electrical.

but I appreciate all tips. I learn every time.



andres

wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:47 pm Post subject: starter woes

Mark;

  

 I have to take exception to one part of your  recommended hand start procedure. 

 You said "when the guy propping it yells contact,  hit the starter button ------"

 The problem with that is the distinct possibility  that you may have just the right mixture in a cylinder that is at TDC and when  you energize the boost coil with the start button that cylinder will fire,  either forward or, possibly, backward.

  

 When the start guy calls contact his hands are on  the blade and he expects you to turn on the magnetos anticipating a start as he  is moving backward clear of the blades. 

  

 If you are going to use the boost coil for this  purpose the timing is critical.  You must hit the start button after his  hands are clear and he is moving away.

  

 Walt

  

 [quote]   ---

nigel(at)yakdisplay.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:32 am Post subject: starter woes

I am aware of at least one accident involving hand swinging a ’52 in the UK.  

His hand was a right mess…….  

Rumour has it, what happened was exactly as you describe here. So BE WARNED !  

   

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon

 Sent: 22 March 2009 02:45

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: starter woes  

  

  

     

Mark;  

    

   

    

I have to take exception to one part of your recommended hand start procedure.   

    

You said "when the guy propping it yells contact, hit the starter button ------"  

    

The problem with that is the distinct possibility that you may have just the right mixture in a cylinder that is at TDC and when you energize the boost coil with the start button that cylinder will fire, either forward or, possibly, backward.  

    

   

    

When the start guy calls contact his hands are on the blade and he expects you to turn on the magnetos anticipating a start as he is moving backward clear of the blades.   

    

   

    

If you are going to use the boost coil for this purpose the timing is critical.  You must hit the start button after his hands are clear and he is moving away.  

    

   

    

Walt  

    

   

  [quote]    

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Yak Pilot (yakplt(at)yahoo.com)   

    

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 10:10 AM  

    

Subject: Re: Yak-List: starter woes  

    

   

      

Lots of good suggestions given:   

    

1.  Move prop... you did that with no help. 

 2.  Check air pressure, make sure it is where it should be.  Assume you did that too. 

 3.  Check for obvious line leaks (you probably did that too).    

    

   

    

Now some new stuff, assuming this is the stock Russian starter solenoid.    

    

A.  It has a manual level on it... hopefully.  Some of the later versions do not.

 Simply stay clear of the prop, and pull on the little lever and see if the engine cranks. 

 If it does proceed to step B.   

    

   

    

B.  Pull the top fitting off the air starter solenoid.  This is the opposite end 

 from where the cannon plug goes.  Squirt in as much WD-40 as you can.  Let it sit 

 for awhile and do that again.  And again.  And again.  I think you get the point.   

    

Now try it again electrically.  This usually fixes it... for a LITTLE while.  Replace

 it as soon as possible.    

    

   

    

Of course doing all this is easy on a YAK-50 where you can shut off the main air 

 supply with a manual valve, not sure what you have on that 55.  You may have to drain

 the whole system and go from there.   

    

   

    

You say you REPLACED THE STARTER VALVE ITSELF?  If that is the case, then ignore all

 of the above.    

    

   

    

Remove air line to starter distributor and manually open the valve with the manual lever

 a few times and you will see if you get good air flow.  Stand BACK, because crap will 

 fly everywhere with that line open.  

    

If all this checks good and you still can not get it to crank, then it may be the 

 starter distributor itself... highly UNLIKELY... and hope to goodness it is not, because

 it is a sorry son of a gun to replace.  DO NOT TRY IT YOURSELF!  Do not let ANYONE other

 than a very qualified person replace that thing!  WHEW.    

    

   

    

Lastly, if you are stuck someplace... just prop the thing.  It usually starts very 

 easily propping it.    

    

   

    

Since your starter vibrator is still good, just bleed all the air out, ALL THE AIR MIND 

 YOU!!!  Then just set it up for a normal start, and when the guy propping it yells 

 contact, hit the starter button and when it fires, turn on the mags as usual.  No need 

 to ever be stuck anywhere with this problem.  Doing it all by yourself is pretty tough

 I admit.    

    

   

    

Best of Luck  

    

Mark Bitterlich  

    

         

  

From: Dr Andre Katz <bu131(at)swbell.net>

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 6:26:50 PM

 Subject: starter woes             

my 55m today left me in the middle of nowhere. I have the   kimball dual solenoid system without a filter, when pressure exceeds 600 psi   it dumps the stuff out. I have replaced the old russian starter dual system   with a button that combines the vibrator and the wire to the solenoid that   puts air into the back of the engine. Today for the first time since I have   owned the plane, after sitting for 2 months it started on the first blade,   then of course went to get a burger 30 miles out and sure enough, with 600   psi in the tank, all I get is a bit of hissing at the push button and no   motion of the prop, I replaced the solenoid (since I have a second one on   board for dumping air wishing that that will make it come home) but no way, i   think that the chances of any repair go down in direct  proportion of   the number of lookers around the airplane.    

      

any ideas?I suspect that there is gunk in the system.    

      

appreciate any help.   

      

stuck in Lancaster texas (KLNC)   

      

andres   

         	  Quote: 	
		     	


  

  

  [b]

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:46 am Post subject: starter woes

If you are planning on adding hand propping the M-14 or Housia to your clue bag one might consider practicing this with someone that is experience in hand propping this aircraft engine before you have to do it off field. Off field failure of the start solenoid, dead battery, stuck air start valve, forgot to close the air valve, leaking air line, corroded solenoid connections or broken connections,  broken wiring to the energizer switch,  or God forbid a spider leak, doing OJT for the first time may not be such a good outcome.  Just ask a gentle man in Tallassee, Al about that. He hand propped his 50 and it taxied through his hanger destroying a perfectly good airplane along with  damaging a couple others in the process knocking him down too. There is a FBO owner in North Alabama that is lucky to still be here after the prop hit  him on the back of the head after he feel into the prop trying to start a Pitts model 12. He has a craniotomy scar to show for the repair of his depressed skull fracture but luckily is back at work and not taking a permanent dirt nap.  

This engine is very easy to start by hand propping. Almost too easy. Especially if the bozo sitting behind the start switch does not use the magnetos and pushes the start switch instead  energizing all of the cylinders at once .  She will fire in a heartbeat if all that was wrong was depleted air or a failed start solenoid. With the cylinders primed, pushing the start valve as the blade is moved will almost always reward you with a engine start. Getting out of the way is another thing.  

While on the subject of surprise starts, one might suggest doing  a mag check during the engine run up before shut down. A worn P lead connection rewarded me with a engine turning over but failing to start luckily with the only injury being a bruise on the back of my hand and my glasses being knocked off. Now that was a wakeup call!   

If you are going to hand prop this aircraft, it is best done as a two man job. One in the cockpit and one on the ground pulling the prop. Here is the sequence as I was taught others may agree or disagree and are free to add to this if preferred.  

<![if !supportLists]>1)      <![endif]>Chock and tie down the aircraft if trying this solo…not recommended by me personally. If dual, chocks and brakes locked at a minimum. If the reason for hand propping is depleted air, the brakes may not work so chocks, tie the aircraft down (the tail at a minimum) and have someone that knows how to operate a YAK/CJ in the pit if you are going to do the hand job.  

<![if !supportLists]>2)      <![endif]>Prime and pull blades as usual (with the mags and switches off if it is you pulling the prop to do the hand job).  

<![if !supportLists]>3)      <![endif]>Position the Blade at about the 11 o’clock position on a compression stroke. This is as you are standing behind the blade or looking it from the cockpit.  

<![if !supportLists]>4)      <![endif]>With you (or whoever) standing to the rear of the blade prepared to pull down on the tip, Yell “contact” so the pilot in the cockpit knows you are about to pull the blade down and through with an aggressive pull. The Mag Switches are off at this point.   

<![if !supportLists]>5)      <![endif]>As the blade is aggressively pulled downward (starts to move) the person in the cockpit flips the mags to 1+2. The downward pull needs to be a firm pull downward. You have to overcome 70 to 80 lbs of cylinder compression with enough forward motion to keep the prop turning into the next compression stroke on the next cylinder.   

<![if !supportLists]>6)      <![endif]>The person pulling the prop, aggressively pulls downward on the prop and steps back from the prop. They step back so if he/she loses their balance they do not fall forward into a  running engine.  

This may take two or three times to fire her off but she will start if there are no other issues preventing it from firing. Hitting the start button will most likely surprise every one with popping the prop downward.  

   

I have not practiced this solo so I will not comment on trying to prop the YAK solo. This is not something that you have to do on a regular basis but doing it every now and then might improve one’s confidence in starting this engine if off field and threatened with walking home because the facilities cannot support the YAK. Taking a pony tank and air connector assembly may prevent having to hand prop the bird off field if air depletion is the problem.  

   

Doc  

   

   

   

    

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nigel Willson

 Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 3:30 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: starter woes  

  

  

   

I am aware of at least one accident involving hand swinging a ’52 in the UK.  

His hand was a right mess…….  

Rumour has it, what happened was exactly as you describe here. So BE WARNED !  

   

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon

 Sent: 22 March 2009 02:45

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: starter woes  

  

  

     

Mark;  

    

   

    

I have to take exception to one part of your recommended hand start procedure.   

    

You said "when the guy propping it yells contact, hit the starter button ------"  

    

The problem with that is the distinct possibility that you may have just the right mixture in a cylinder that is at TDC and when you energize the boost coil with the start button that cylinder will fire, either forward or, possibly, backward.  

    

   

    

When the start guy calls contact his hands are on the blade and he expects you to turn on the magnetos anticipating a start as he is moving backward clear of the blades.   

    

   

    

If you are going to use the boost coil for this purpose the timing is critical.  You must hit the start button after his hands are clear and he is moving away.  

    

   

    

Walt  

    

   

   	  Quote: 	
		      

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Yak Pilot (yakplt(at)yahoo.com)   

    

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 10:10 AM  

    

Subject: Re: starter woes  

    

   

      

Lots of good suggestions given:   

    

1.  Move prop... you did that with no help. 

 2.  Check air pressure, make sure it is where it should be.  Assume you did that too. 

 3.  Check for obvious line leaks (you probably did that too).    

    

   

    

Now some new stuff, assuming this is the stock Russian starter solenoid.    

    

A.  It has a manual level on it... hopefully.  Some of the later versions do not.

 Simply stay clear of the prop, and pull on the little lever and see if the engine cranks. 

 If it does proceed to step B.   

    

   

    

B.  Pull the top fitting off the air starter solenoid.  This is the opposite end 

 from where the cannon plug goes.  Squirt in as much WD-40 as you can.  Let it sit 

 for awhile and do that again.  And again.  And again.  I think you get the point.   

    

Now try it again electrically.  This usually fixes it... for a LITTLE while.  Replace

 it as soon as possible.    

    

   

    

Of course doing all this is easy on a YAK-50 where you can shut off the main air 

 supply with a manual valve, not sure what you have on that 55.  You may have to drain

 the whole system and go from there.   

    

   

    

You say you REPLACED THE STARTER VALVE ITSELF?  If that is the case, then ignore all

 of the above.    

    

   

    

Remove air line to starter distributor and manually open the valve with the manual lever

 a few times and you will see if you get good air flow.  Stand BACK, because crap will 

 fly everywhere with that line open.  

    

If all this checks good and you still can not get it to crank, then it may be the 

 starter distributor itself... highly UNLIKELY... and hope to goodness it is not, because

 it is a sorry son of a gun to replace.  DO NOT TRY IT YOURSELF!  Do not let ANYONE other

 than a very qualified person replace that thing!  WHEW.    

    

   

    

Lastly, if you are stuck someplace... just prop the thing.  It usually starts very 

 easily propping it.    

    

   

    

Since your starter vibrator is still good, just bleed all the air out, ALL THE AIR MIND 

 YOU!!!  Then just set it up for a normal start, and when the guy propping it yells 

 contact, hit the starter button and when it fires, turn on the mags as usual.  No need 

 to ever be stuck anywhere with this problem.  Doing it all by yourself is pretty tough

 I admit.    

    

   

    

Best of Luck  

    

Mark Bitterlich  

    

         

  

From: Dr Andre Katz <bu131(at)swbell.net>

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 6:26:50 PM

 Subject: starter woes             

my 55m today left me in the middle of nowhere. I have the kimball   dual solenoid system without a filter, when pressure exceeds 600 psi it dumps   the stuff out. I have replaced the old russian starter dual system with a   button that combines the vibrator and the wire to the solenoid that puts air   into the back of the engine. Today for the first time since I have owned the   plane, after sitting for 2 months it started on the first blade, then of   course went to get a burger 30 miles out and sure enough, with 600 psi in the   tank, all I get is a bit of hissing at the push button and no motion of the   prop, I replaced the solenoid (since I have a second one on board for dumping   air wishing that that will make it come home) but no way, i think that the   chances of any repair go down in direct  proportion of the number of   lookers around the airplane.    

      

any ideas?I suspect that there is gunk in the system.    

      

appreciate any help.   

      

stuck in Lancaster texas (KLNC)   

      

andres   

         	  Quote: 	
		     	


  

  

     	
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       [quote][b]

f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:06 am Post subject: starter woes

On Mar 21, 2009, at 7:28 PM, Dr Andre Katz wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 the rescue party was sent to LNC, this is what I really love about  

 aviation, 5 volunteers 2 airplanes, 80 bucks in new batteries  

 (turned out not needed) and a round of burgers that I had to buy for  

 all involved returned blackmagic to her roosting place.

 thanks to all suggestions, I learned a lot.

 Also 2 great guys in LNC that also went out of their way to help.

 We measured the voltage with a voltmeter, show 28 volts, well  

 perhaps volts ok but amperage bad (been there done that) so we  

 hooked a brand new battery piggy back and no motion of the prop,  

 only hiss at the rear of the case (somewhere). Not a valve. Measured  

 capacitance at the kimball electric starter solenoid and no juice.  

 The culprit was a bad wire from the switch to the solenoid. We found  

 a hot line outside the circuit that drove the dump solenoid and  

 voila! except that the prop will turn when the dump switch was  

 energized but the engine will not start. After emptying the tank  

 once, it doomed on me that the shower of sparks needed to be  

 activated.  So one hand in the dump switch, one in the primer, the  

 other in the original start button for the vibrator and the mouth in  

 the throttle to pump got it started. Now it resting with a smile in  

 the hangar like a queen that she is.

 This is whats great about yakking and friends to help.

 the 55m has a different system than the cj'  I have a valve from the  

 cj and could not install it in the 55 due to space problems. Single  

 switch no bypass. The prop turning trick did not work, of course it  

 was electrical.

 but I appreciate all tips. I learn every time.



 andres

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:18 pm Post subject: starter woes

Folks, you do not have to take exception.  I was giving a block diagram of how to start the engine, and not a detailed step by step, how to chock the aircraft, how to prime the aircraft, how to tie it down, how to see if there was a thunderstorm in the area.  Etc.  No complaints... the points given were valid and well thought out.   

  

 They also could easily apply to a standard opposed engine with impulse couplers that are "right on the verge" as you move the prop.  Same thing can happen.  

  

 I suppose maybe it would be wise to hit the start button a few times before he touches the prop.  On a airplane with impulse couplers it might be a good idea to turn the mags on and off once... I really do not know.  

  

 Personally, when I tell contact to the pilot, my hands are not already on the prop.  I am standing back getting ready.  When I yell "switch on" I then wait for a nod from the pilot and then pull it.  Others may not do that, so the advice given here is perfectly valid as is any advice given about propping an airplane.  

  

 Probably the best advice of all is not to prop an aircraft,,,,,,, period.  Some people know how to do it safely and some do not.  I am not going to try how to teach anyone how to do it....ever.  Personally, or on the YAK LIST.   My advice was meant purely as a "how it works" explanation.  

  

 Thanks to all who made sure they corrected what I said... because I clearly did not make that point at all in my first email.  !!!!!

  

 DON'T PROP ENGINES.  

  

 Mark Bitterlich

  

 

   From: Nigel Willson <nigel(at)yakdisplay.com>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 4:29:50 AM

Subject: RE: starter woes



      

I am aware of at least one accident involving hand swinging a â€™52 in the UK. 

His hand was a right messâ€¦â€¦. 

Rumour has it, what happened was exactly as you describe here. So BE WARNED ! 

  

    

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon

Sent: 22 March 2009 02:45

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: starter woes



 

   

Mark;

  

 

  

I have to take exception to one part of your recommended hand start procedure. 

  

You said "when the guy propping it yells contact, hit the starter button ------"

  

The problem with that is the distinct possibility that you may have just the right mixture in a cylinder that is at TDC and when you energize the boost coil with the start button that cylinder will fire, either forward or, possibly, backward.

  

 

  

When the start guy calls contact his hands are on the blade and he expects you to turn on the magnetos anticipating a start as he is moving backward clear of the blades. 

  

 

  

If you are going to use the boost coil for this purpose the timing is critical.  You must hit the start button after his hands are clear and he is moving away.

  

 

  

Walt

  

 

 [quote]  

---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:05 am Post subject: starter woes

Doug is this the same part as is used on the M-14?  



Mark 



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