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Z-19 + Ford regulator killing batteries?

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mark.supinski(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:53 pm Post subject: Z-19 + Ford regulator killing batteries?

Hello All-



I have a system based on the Z-19 drawing for an EFI based airplane.  Getting ready to fly for the first time, but I am now almost convinced my setup is killing the batteries for some reason.  I have gone through 3 already over the last 16 months just testing out the airplane & running the engine in test spurts.

 

Here's the symptoms, hopefully someone can shed some light:

Recommended Ford regulator
2x UB 12220 22AH batteries (3" w x 7" l x 6.5" h)

80 Amp alternatorMy engine monitor keeps complaining that the alternator is putting out too high a voltage (typically 15.0 - 15.5 after start with the engine running).  Don't know if this is just because the batteries were just discharged starting the engine -- haven't had long enough engine runs to see if the load drops.

 

All the batteries fail the same way -- suddenly they won't hold a charge & output only 3v or so.  Just had another one fail today.



After doing some additional reading, I am starting to wonder whether these seal mat batteries are such a good idea.  The literature suggests they are quite finicky on how to recharge.

 

I must confess that I may have killed the batteries myself.  I have an external battery cart & I have simply been hooking the batteries up & setting the charger to 40amp when the batteries were running down.  The batteries seem to want an initial charge of 3 amps or less before upping the amperage.

 

Help!

Thanks,



Mark

  [quote][b]

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:54 pm Post subject: Z-19 + Ford regulator killing batteries?

At 04:52 PM 3/22/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Hello All-



 I have a system based on the Z-19 drawing for an EFI based airplane.  Getting ready to fly for the first time, but I am now almost convinced my setup is killing the batteries for some reason.  I have gone through 3 already over the last 16 months just testing out the airplane & running the engine in test spurts.



 Here's the symptoms, hopefully someone can shed some light:  Recommended Ford regulator 
2x UB 12220 22AH batteries (3" w x 7" l x 6.5" h) 
80 Amp alternator 
My engine monitor keeps complaining that the alternator is putting out too high a voltage (typically 15.0 - 15.5 after start with the engine running).  Don't know if this is just because the batteries were just discharged starting the engine -- haven't had long enough engine runs to see if the load drops. 	


   No . . . the regulator has one responsibility only. HOLD the

   bus at 14.2 to 14.6 volts under ALL conditions where the

   alternator is turning fast enough to shoulder system load

   AND recharge the battery.



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  All the batteries fail the same way -- suddenly they won't hold a charge & output only 3v or so.  Just had another one fail today.After doing some additional reading, I am starting to wonder whether these seal mat batteries are such a good idea.  The literature suggests they are quite finicky on how to recharge. 	


   EVERY battery hates to be charged at 15+ volts. The

   difference is that you can pour water into some

   batteries . . . others simply become re-cycle

   fodder.



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  I must confess that I may have killed the batteries myself.  I have an external battery cart & I have simply been hooking the batteries up & setting the charger to 40amp when the batteries were running down.  The batteries seem to want an initial charge of 3 amps or less before upping the amperage. 	


   An external power supply should ALSO be set

   for 14.2 volts. You say it's a "battery cart"

   with a current setting? Sounds like an AC mains

   power supply of some kind. 14.2 volts is the

   rule. Recharge rates are a problem only if

   you deeply discharge the batteries. If you have

   ground power available, then there's no good

   reason to deeply discharge the battries.



   It sounds like lack of attention to voltage control

   is the root cause of your difficulties.



 



 

        Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------



     [quote][b]

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mark.supinski(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:11 pm Post subject: Z-19 + Ford regulator killing batteries?

On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 5:52 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     At 04:52 PM 3/22/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Hello All-



 I have a system based on the Z-19 drawing for an EFI based airplane.  Getting ready to fly for the first time, but I am now almost convinced my setup is killing the batteries for some reason.  I have gone through 3 already over the last 16 months just testing out the airplane & running the engine in test spurts.



 Here's the symptoms, hopefully someone can shed some light:  Recommended Ford regulator 
2x UB 12220 22AH batteries (3" w x 7" l x 6.5" h) 
80 Amp alternator 
My engine monitor keeps complaining that the alternator is putting out too high a voltage (typically 15.0 - 15.5 after start with the engine running).  Don't know if this is just because the batteries were just discharged starting the engine -- haven't had long enough engine runs to see if the load drops. 	




   No . . . the regulator has one responsibility only. HOLD the

   bus at 14.2 to 14.6 volts under ALL conditions where the

   alternator is turning fast enough to shoulder system load

   AND recharge the battery.

	


-------------------------------------------------------- 

So this suggests that the regulator has a problem.  It is certainly generating bus voltages in excess of 15.0v -- I have 2 devices which display voltage & both agree within 1v of each other that voltages are above 15. I can't imagine the regulator is adjustable, so it must be a dud, correct?

 

-------------------------------------------------------- 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

  	  Quote: 	
		  All the batteries fail the same way -- suddenly they won't hold a charge & output only 3v or so.  Just had another one fail today.After doing some additional reading, I am starting to wonder whether these seal mat batteries are such a good idea.  The literature suggests they are quite finicky on how to recharge. 	




   EVERY battery hates to be charged at 15+ volts. The

   difference is that you can pour water into some

   batteries . . . others simply become re-cycle

   fodder.

  	  Quote: 	
		  I must confess that I may have killed the batteries myself.  I have an external battery cart & I have simply been hooking the batteries up & setting the charger to 40amp when the batteries were running down.  The batteries seem to want an initial charge of 3 amps or less before upping the amperage. 	




   An external power supply should ALSO be set

   for 14.2 volts. You say it's a "battery cart"

   with a current setting? Sounds like an AC mains

   power supply of some kind. 14.2 volts is the

   rule. Recharge rates are a problem only if

   you deeply discharge the batteries. If you have

   ground power available, then there's no good

   reason to deeply discharge the battries.

	


-------------------------------------------------------- 



The 110v charger allows one to set how many amps to charge with & for how long -- it puts out 14.5V while charging.  However -- *EVERY* AGM battery I have seen claims a maximum charging amps of 7A or less.  This confuses me since I don't know how to control this when they are being recharged via the alternator.  Some I have seen say "Initial" charging amps, others say Max.

 

Here is what I see in the manufacturer's literature for my batteries:



Charge Method (Constant Voltage) - Cycle Use - Initial Current - 7.7A or smaller

Charge Method (Constant Voltage) - Cycle Use - Control voltage - 14.5 - 14.9 V

 Charge Method (Constant Voltage) - Float Use - Control Voltage - 13.6 - 13.8 V



There is no good reason to discharge the batteries... except when one forgets to turn off the master switch & the ECU quietly continues running all week as the acft sits in the hangar.

 

--------------------------------------------------------  

 	  Quote: 	
		  



   It sounds like lack of attention to voltage control

   is the root cause of your difficulties.



	


-------------------------------------------------------- 



If certainly has my attention now!  If step one is to replace that regulator, I'll do it forthwith.  If another step is to follow a different procedure when ground charging (or get a smaller charger) I'll certainly do that too.

 

Thanks, Bob -- appreciate the help.



Mark

 

[quote]

 



 

        Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------



      	  Quote: 	
		  



ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

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[b]

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rv-9a-online(at)telus.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:29 am Post subject: Z-19 + Ford regulator killing batteries?

In my opinion your regulator is working fine, but  the wiring to the inputs of your regulator is suspect.  Poor connections,  too small a gauge of wiring or faulty (resistive) switches will cause  overvoltage when the alternator is heavily loaded.

  

 Bob has an article that discusses this, you'll have  to search his website.

  

 Here's the fix that I did on my RV-9A to eliminate  this problem:

  

 http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/Regulator_relay_app.jpg

  

 The K3 relay is wired firewall-forward directly  from the battery (using a fuselink) and the regulator.  D17 is not strictly  necessary, but guards against a dual failure (stuck relay and overvoltage at the  same time).  I went from varying charging voltage (up to 15.5V) to  rock-solid 14.2V.

  

 Vern Little

 Vx Aviation

 [quote]   ---

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JohnInReno

Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 150

Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:53 am Post subject: Z-19 + Ford regulator killing batteries?

Vern Little wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		               

   http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/Regulator_relay_app.jpg

    

 	
 Slightly off topic, but I notice a Hall Effect sensor (S5) that appears to be on the forward side of the firewall. I am installing an AFS 3500 with a Hall Effect sensor and two alternators ala Z-13/8. I would like to keep all of the alternator and regulator stuff firewall forward but the EMS wants the Hall sensor on the cabin side. Is there any problem with the Hall sensor living on the firewall?

 

 John Morgensen

 RV9A

    [quote][b]

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_________________
John Morgensen
RV-9A - Born on July 3, 2013
RV4 - for sale

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:01 am Post subject: Z-19 + Ford regulator killing batteries?

 	  Quote: 	
		      No . . . the regulator has one responsibility only. HOLD the

    bus at 14.2 to 14.6 volts under ALL conditions where the

    alternator is turning fast enough to shoulder system load

    AND recharge the battery.



  

 -------------------------------------------------------- 



 So this suggests that the regulator has a problem.  It is certainly generating bus voltages in excess of 15.0v -- I have 2 devices which display voltage & both agree within 1v of each other that voltages are above 15. I can't imagine the regulator is adjustable, so it must be a dud, correct?



 -------------------------------------------------------- 	


        Vern brings up another possibility . . . excessive

        drop in the regulator's field supply wiring. Take

        a look at:



  http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Regulators/Ford_Test_Reg.jpg



       Wire up your regulator like this and install it

       directly to the back of the alternator. See what

       happens to the bus voltage when all aircraft wiring

       is out of the circuit.



       I am skeptical that this is the problem. THAT large

       an upward shift would almost always cause severe

       instability too . . . but give it a try and report

       back.

 ---------------



  	  Quote: 	
		      An external power supply should ALSO be set

    for 14.2 volts. You say it's a "battery cart"

    with a current setting? Sounds like an AC mains

    power supply of some kind. 14.2 volts is the

    rule. Recharge rates are a problem only if

    you deeply discharge the batteries. If you have

    ground power available, then there's no good

    reason to deeply discharge the battries.



  

 -------------------------------------------------------- 



 The 110v charger allows one to set how many amps to charge with & for how long -- it puts out 14.5V while charging.  However -- *EVERY* AGM battery I have seen claims a maximum charging amps of 7A or less.  This confuses me since I don't know how to control this when they are being recharged via the alternator.  Some I have seen say "Initial" charging amps, others say Max.



 Here is what I see in the manufacturer's literature for my batteries:



 Charge Method (Constant Voltage) - Cycle Use - Initial Current - 7.7A or smaller

 Charge Method (Constant Voltage) - Cycle Use - Control voltage - 14.5 - 14.9 V

 Charge Method (Constant Voltage) - Float Use - Control Voltage - 13.6 - 13.8 V



 There is no good reason to discharge the batteries... except when one forgets to turn off the master switch & the ECU quietly continues running all week as the acft sits in the hangar. 	


    Okay. Assuming the manufacturer's literature is the

    "bible" for battery recharge protocols. How are you

    going to comply with them after the airplane is

    finished?



    If you've every driven a car with a battery ammeter

    (discharge-zero-plus display) you'll recall that after

    starting the engine, the ammeter lays over to the charge

    side with some gusto. After a few minutes, it tapers back

    to some point just above zero. The same thing will happen

    in your airplane. After cranking the engine (and perhaps

    running some electro-whizzies during pre-flight) how do

    you plan to limit the recharge rates to values requested

    by the manufacturer of your battery?



    The point is there is no practical way to limit the

    recharge rate . . . nor is it necessary.   



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  If certainly has my attention now!  If step one is to replace that regulator, I'll do it forthwith.  If another step is to follow a different procedure when ground charging (or get a smaller charger) I'll certainly do that too. 	


    The charger you have is just fine. It sounds like

    some form of programmable 'smart charger'. When

    used to recharge a stand alone battery, it will

    have a recharge profile something like this:



  http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Battery_Tender_Recharge.pdf 



    Here's what another charger does when it was

    being used like a "ground power" support supply.



  http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_4.jpg



    Another concern is the 22 a.h. rating of the batteries.

    This battery package size started out as a 17 a.h.

    device. In later years 20 and now 22 a.h.

    ratings were offered. I'm thinking they may have

    achieved a larger 20 hour discharge capability at

    the expense of robustness.



    If you replace these critters, I'd have more

    confidence in their robustness as beat-n-bash

    airplane batteries if they were rated more like

    their ancestors. A validation of this idea can

    be found in ratings for the Odyssey PC680 which

    is rated at 17 a.h.  The vast majority of

    product in that package size are 17 or 18 a.h.

    batteries. I think I'd steer clear of "stretched"

    versions.



    Bob . . .    [quote][b]

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chasb(at)satx.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:41 am Post subject: Z-19 + Ford regulator killing batteries?

My Ford regulator is adjustable. Mine was set at 13.8 volts. No problems so far.



Charlie Brame

RV-6A  N11CB

San Antonio

--------------------------------------



Time: 12:01:39 PM PST US

From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>

Subject: Re: Z-19 + Ford regulator killing batteries?

 	  Quote: 	
		   No . . . the regulator has one responsibility only. HOLD the

 bus at 14.2 to 14.6 volts under ALL conditions where the

 alternator is turning fast enough to shoulder system load

 AND recharge the battery.

--------------------------------------------------------



So this suggests that the regulator has a problem.  It is certainly 

generating bus voltages in excess of 15.0v -- I have 2 devices which 

display voltage & both agree within 1v of each other that voltages 

are above 15. I can't imagine the regulator is adjustable, so it 

must be a dud, correct?



--------------------------------------------------------

	
----------------------------snip--------------------------



 [quote][b]

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