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Hand Propping

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barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:42 am Post subject: Hand Propping

Guys,



First, a disclaimer.  Hand propping is inherently dangerous and ANY

attempt to start the engine in this manner could kill you.  The following

is not an endorsement or recommendation of any procedure.  It is merely an

observation after seeing many techniques tried.



Walt is right...and I've seen it happen.  No air but a perfect alignment

for ignition and the engine springs to life when the start button is

pushed.  With just the wrong timing your hands (or worse) can be good

material for the latest Ginsu commercial.



Another technique that seems to lower the risk (again, do not attempt this

at home) is to get the plane set up and stand clear of the prop while the

start button is pushed.  Once the "Bzzzzzzzzz" of the exciter is heard and

the prop still dead, then walk up to it and give it a whirl.



I've done the other way (the Russian Roulette technique) and just been

plain lucky to not get hurt.  Seeing the thing fire without air convinced

me to never do it the old way again...and count my blessings that I didn't

get a call from Ginsu.

-- 

Barry Hancock

Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.

office (909) 606-4444

cell (949) 300-5510

www.worldwidewarbirds.com

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

feyerabm(at)web.de
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:08 am Post subject: Hand Propping

Here´s a clip of Jurgy´s Sukhoi getting hand/rope propped...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azi0VP8IFg0



I´d think that when wearing proper gloves and paying attention not to loop the rope around your hand etc. it looks safer to me than by hand propping directly at the prop...

I´ve got no experience hand propping a radial engine though and I´m already intimidated enough to pay extreme caution hand propping a Lycoming or similar engines....



just my 2 (Euro)cents,

Markus

 	  Quote: 	
		   -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----

 Von: "Barry Hancock" <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com>

 Gesendet: 23.03.09 15:53:28

 An: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Betreff: Hand Propping


	




 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Guys,

 

 First, a disclaimer.  Hand propping is inherently dangerous and ANY

 attempt to start the engine in this manner could kill you.  The following

 is not an endorsement or recommendation of any procedure.  It is merely an

 observation after seeing many techniques tried.

 

 Walt is right...and I've seen it happen.  No air but a perfect alignment

 for ignition and the engine springs to life when the start button is

 pushed.  With just the wrong timing your hands (or worse) can be good

 material for the latest Ginsu commercial.

 

 Another technique that seems to lower the risk (again, do not attempt this

 at home) is to get the plane set up and stand clear of the prop while the

 start button is pushed.  Once the "Bzzzzzzzzz" of the exciter is heard and

 the prop still dead, then walk up to it and give it a whirl.

 

 I've done the other way (the Russian Roulette technique) and just been

 plain lucky to not get hurt.  Seeing the thing fire without air convinced

 me to never do it the old way again...and count my blessings that I didn't

 get a call from Ginsu.

 

 

 -- 

 Barry Hancock

 Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.

 office (909) 606-4444

 cell (949) 300-5510

 www.worldwidewarbirds.com

pilko2(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:36 am Post subject: Hand Propping

Jurgis normally runs a 4 blade prop not a three as illustrated here.



No matter the CAUTION note to hand propping still applies ! 



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feyerabm(at)web.de
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:22 am Post subject: Hand Propping

I didn´t mean to say that one doesn´t have to be cautious, using a rope ! However, I would fell a little more comfortable being a bit further away from a 360/400hp shredder...



He used to run a 4 blade prop some time ago, but the more recent pics show a 3 blade again. And the plane on your picture shows his SU-26, whereas the one in the clip is was LY-LJK, his SU-31...



 	  Quote: 	
		   -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----

 Von: "pilko2" <pilko2(at)btinternet.com>

 Gesendet: 23.03.09 17:24:47

 An: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

 Betreff: RE: Hand Propping


	




[quote] Jurgis normally runs a 4 blade prop not a three as illustrated here.

 

 No matter the CAUTION note to hand propping still applies ! 

 

 --

lie.buyse(at)telenet.be
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:56 am Post subject: Hand Propping

In addition, I would like to pass following story. When I and a friend of 

mine who owned a Yak 52 for a couple of weeks wanted to fly the airplane 

back from the maintenance facility, he was not able to restart the engine 

after taxiing to the fuel station for refueling.  After several attempts 

there was no pressure left to move the prop. Went back to the hangar and 

asked the russian engineer for an air bottle. He smiled and said he didn't 

need air to start the M14P. ?!?!? With me (almost no yak experience at that 

time) in the backseat he primed the cylinders quite a bit again, pulled the 

blades through, carefully  put a blade in the two-o-clock position, jumped 

in the front seat again, primed the carb (I think) and when doing that, the 

engine suddenly started. No pop. No hiss. Only another big smile from the 

front seat.

Changed pilots, waited for some airpressure for safe taxiing and off we 

went. Sadly, we never saw this man back to ask how he exactly did it.

As you could expect I did some research afterwards and found that the 

excellent starting of this engine is due to the shower of sparks ignition 

which ignites the mixture some degrees AFTER TDC. If you look at the angle 

between the two points of the rotor and compare it to the fixed pre-ignition 

timing you might guess that sparking starts at +- 5° and ends at 20° after 

TDC. I've been told that this timing is very important for smooth and 

predictable engine starting.

With this knowledge in mind I think you can safely handprop this engine, 

particularly because there is absolutely no chance of a kickback if you keep 

off the mag switch.

I hope I will never have to handprop, but in case there is no choice I would 

do it as follows :

(First of all : good briefing with the guy on the start knob with emphasis 

on NOT NOT NOT touching the mag switch until well clear of the prop).



1) place wheelchocks

2) close the main air valve and be sure there is absolutely no pressure left 

to feed the start valve (i.e.activating

     brakes or flaps).

3) pull the blades (normal priming procedures) and try to position  a piston 

just after TDC. By some way this

    must  be possible as described above, but maybe only for russians 

4) the pilot advises when ready to push the start button. You keep well 

behind the prop. So he pushes the knob and

    when lucky, the engine will start. If not, he keeps pushing to activate 

the shower-of-sparks. Before putting

    your hand(s) on the prop blade, be aware that the point of the rotor 

might be a fraction of a milimeter away

    from the contact point in the distributor. So if an explosive mixture is 

"waiting" in the cylinder, even a light touch

    of a finger might ignite this mixture and start the engine. This means 

that you might experience no resistance at

     all and maybe falling into the prop travel. But most important : the 

most dangerous thing - kickback - won't happen

5) having all this in mind : give it a whirl

6) if the engine fires the pilot still keeps pushing the start knob until 

you are at the wingtip. Then and ONLY then

    he flips the mag switch!



After looking the youtube movie on handpropping, I think I'd prefer the rope 

technique 

Having a flat battery I would never ever imagine handpropping!!!



Any comment?

Grtz,



L. Buyse

Yak 52   RA-1428K



---

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:55 am Post subject: Re: Hand Propping

I think the rope idea is brilliant.  Also, you see a lot of guys standing in front of the prop to hand prop it.  Behind the prop would seem to be safer.  



All that being said....a spare air bottle is the optimal solution.  With a little time you can actually hard plumb a spare bottle into your system.  More useable ballast.... 



Barry  



Oh, and Yurgis is one of the few guys who doesn't conform to the "there are no old, bold pilots" addage.  That guy is amazing... He stopped into my hangar a few years ago and left me a signed photo of him inverted with the vertical of his Su26 about a foot off the water on a river.  He's crazy...good, but crazy.

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:34 am Post subject: Hand Propping

Just to stir the pot.  

  

 I hand-prop the engine differently than most anyone else.  I do not stand in front of the prop actually facing it on anything other than maybe a J-3 Cub.   Instead,  I pull the prop around until I can grab the blade standing sideways to the aircraft.  I reach down, turn my hand towards the back of the aircraft, grabbing the end of the prop blade, with the blade at about the 7 O'Clock position for an M-14, and about 5 O'Clock for anything that spins the other way, and then I move my whole body back while pulling the blade UP.  This means that my natural motion is AWAY from the aircraft.  I can also use my whole body to LIFT the prop up.  Be aware though, I am big... 6'6" plus and well over 280 pounds.  (smile).  However, I have used this method to start 300+ HP IO-540's when no one else could.  I did not figure this method out.  I saw a movie of a guy doing it in the 1940's.  Worked for  him.  Works for me.  But it is not for everyone.  

  

 I take exception to ropes.    Ropes have a habit of getting caught up in things.  Seems safe enough but I just can see too many things going wrong with a rope.  In WW-II a rope and a prop device was used to pull the engines through, but never for starting that I know of.  Something goes wrong with a rope, and it happens to get caught up in a whirling prop ... man oh man,  LOOK OUT.  Ropes have been around a long time.  So have engines that need to be propped.  If it has not been done before now, there probably is a reason why not.  But, wheels always need to be re-invented and I am guilty of doing exactly that all the time.  

  

 You want to try it.. have at it.   Bottom line... people who have propped engines for years tend to develop their own methods... what works for me, probably won't work for everyone else.  

  

 The issue discussed of an engine starting just by pushing the start switch is very apt and correct.  It would be smart to push that button once before anyone lays a hand on the prop... and excuse me for not mentioning it explicitly.  

  

 Propping an unknown engine without any prior experience is just asking for it.   That is exactly how I ended up with my spare YAK-50.  Guy did exactl;y that (with no prior YAK experience) when the thing ran out of air and it ended up crashing into a hangar.  Bad for him, good for me.  

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 

 

 

   From: barryhancock <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:55:48 AM

Subject: Re: Hand Propping



--> Yak-List message posted by: "barryhancock" <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com (bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com)>



I think the rope idea is brilliant.  Also, you see a lot of guys standing in front of the prop to hand prop it.  Behind the prop would seem to be safer.  



All that being said....a spare air bottle is the optimal solution.  With a little time you can actually hard plumb a spare bottle into your system.  More useable ballast.... 



Barry  



Oh, and  Yurgis is one of the few guys who doesn't conform to the "there are no old, bold pilots" addage.  That guy is amazing... He stopped into my hangar a few years ago and left me a signed photo of him inverted with the vertical of his Su26 about a foot off the water on a river.  He's crazy...good, but crazy.



--------

Barry Hancock

Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.

www.worldwidewarbirds.com





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235952#235952

 [quote][b]

cjpilot710(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:43 am Post subject: Hand Propping

Well I'm out with the B-24 in TPL, TX.  Its raining out side, vis is  down to 1 1/2.  Its getting better.  At least the wind has dropped  below 30kts.

  

 I have prop M-14 and HS6A a bunch of times.  A number of "ways" of  doing it have already been mentioned here but 2 precautions have not.

  

 One:  Footing is very important.  Ice is obvious but so would be  loose gravel, oil on black top, etc.  

  

 Two:  Age.  Us older guys have to start considering the  physiological aspect of our bodies.  Old pilots need to be less bolder  as we progress on ward. 

  

 I prop a gentlemen's Cub the other day, without any thought.  But to  prop a M14/HS6A takes care and careful thought.  BTW as a co-pilot my  captain and I once propped a DC-3 engine with a rope and a jeep.  We had  sheared a starter shaft on the last flight of the day, leaving Freeport.   The skipper had flown C-47 over the Hump.  He found a rope and jeep,  wrapped the rope around the prop hub several times so that it would not slip,  and took off in the jeep.  My instructions were to hit the mags to "both"  when the rope came clear.  Worked like a charm.

  

 There was also a sleeve and bungee method, which if I'm right was a  regular alternate way to prop big engines if needed.  I bet it would work  for us too.

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  

  In a message dated 3/24/2009 1:35:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  yakplt(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		        Just to stir the pot.  

    

   I hand-prop the engine differently than most anyone else.  I do not    stand in front of the prop actually facing it on anything other than maybe a    J-3 Cub.   Instead,  I pull the prop around until I can grab    the blade standing sideways to the aircraft.  I reach down, turn my hand    towards the back of the aircraft, grabbing the end of the prop blade, with the    blade at about the 7 O'Clock position for an M-14, and about 5 O'Clock for    anything that spins the other way, and then I move my whole body back while    pulling the blade UP.  This means that my natural motion is AWAY from the    aircraft.  I can also use my whole body to LIFT the prop up.  Be    aware though, I am big... 6'6" plus and well over 280 pounds.     (smile).  However, I have used this method to start 300+ HP IO-540's when    no one else could.  I did not figure this method out.  I saw a movie    of a guy doing it in the 1940's.  Worked for him.  Works for    me.  But it is not for everyone.  

    

   I take exception to ropes.    Ropes have a habit of getting    caught up in things.  Seems safe enough but I just can see too many    things going wrong with a rope.  In WW-II a rope and a prop device was    used to pull the engines through, but never for starting that I know of.     Something goes wrong with a rope, and it happens to get caught up in a    whirling prop ... man oh man,  LOOK OUT.  Ropes have been around a    long time.  So have engines that need to be propped.  If it has not    been done before now, there probably is a reason why not.  But, wheels    always need to be re-invented and I am guilty of doing exactly that all the    time.  

    

   You want to try it.. have at it.   Bottom line... people who    have propped engines for years tend to develop their own methods... what works    for me, probably won't work for everyone else.  

    

   The issue discussed of an engine starting just by pushing the start    switch is very apt and correct.  It would be smart to push that button    once before anyone lays a hand on the prop... and excuse me for not mentioning    it explicitly.  

    

   Propping an unknown engine without any prior experience is just asking    for it.   That is exactly how I ended up with my spare YAK-50.     Guy did exactl;y that (with no prior YAK experience) when the thing ran out of    air and it ended up crashing into a hangar.  Bad for him, good for    me.  

    

   Mark Bitterlich

   

 

   

         From: barryhancock    <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:55:48    AM

Subject: Re:    Hand Propping



--> Yak-List message posted by: "barryhancock"    <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com (bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com)>



I    think the rope idea is brilliant.  Also, you see a lot of guys standing    in front of the prop to hand prop it.  Behind the prop would seem to be    safer.  



All that being said....a spare air bottle is the optimal    solution.  With a little time you can actually hard plumb a spare bottle    into your system.  More useable ballast.... 



Barry     



Oh, and Yurgis is one of the few guys who doesn't conform to the    "there are no old, bold pilots" addage.  That guy is amazing... He    stopped into my hangar a few years ago and left me a signed photo of him    inverted with the vertical of his Su26 about a foot off the water on a    river.  He's crazy...good, but crazy.



--------

Barry    Hancock

Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.

www.worldwidewarbirds.com





Read this topic    online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235952#235952

 	  Quote: 	
		  



="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	


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  [quote][b]

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:29 pm Post subject: Hand Propping

Pappy, I believe you.  But I gotta tell you, bungees, ropes or ???  Hey, whatever works for you!   Rog on the safety issues.  

  

 Listen, this guy told me this story and I am wondering if anyone has heard of anything like this.  He claims that he once had a guy pull in front of him and run his engine up to just about full power and the PROP BLAST from the airplane in front started the aircraft he was in behind it!  

  

 I have actually seen this method work with two C-130's (called a "buddy start").  I have also been in a C-130 at Wake Island that rolled down the runway on three engines and air-started the forth on take-off.  Made me nervous, (we were at Gross Weight), but hey... it worked.  I have even read of this method (buddy start) being  used in the early days of jet aircraft!  But with something like a Cessna 180 ??  He says he did it.  

  

 I wonder if it would actually work on say a YAK-52?   I think I'll let someone else test it.. but it certainly sounds good in theory... rocks and flying debris aside that is.  

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 

 

 

   From: "cjpilot710(at)aol.com" <cjpilot710(at)aol.com>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 2:42:08 PM

Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Hand Propping



 Well I'm out with the B-24 in TPL, TX.  Its raining out side, vis is down to 1 1/2.  Its getting better.  At least the wind has dropped below 30kts.

  

 I have prop M-14 and HS6A a bunch of times.  A number of "ways" of doing it have already been mentioned here but 2 precautions have not.

  

 One:  Footing is very important.  Ice is obvious but so would be loose gravel, oil on black top, etc.  

  

 Two:  Age.  Us older guys have to start considering the physiological aspect of our bodies.  Old pilots need to be less bolder as we progress on ward. 

  

 I prop a gentlemen's Cub the other day, without any thought.  But to prop a M14/HS6A takes care and careful thought.  BTW as a co-pilot my captain and I once propped a DC-3 engine with a rope and a jeep.  We had sheared a starter shaft on the last flight of the day, leaving Freeport.  The skipper had flown C-47 over the Hump.  He found a rope and jeep, wrapped the rope around the prop hub several times so that it would not slip, and took off in the jeep.  My instructions were to hit the mags to "both" when the rope came clear.  Worked like a charm.

  

 There was also a sleeve and bungee method, which if I'm right was a regular alternate way to prop big engines if needed.  I bet it would work for us too.

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  

  In a message dated 3/24/2009 1:35:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, yakplt(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		    Just to stir the pot.  

  

 I hand-prop the engine differently than most anyone else.  I do not stand in front of the prop actually facing it on anything other than maybe a J-3 Cub.   Instead,  I pull the prop around until I can grab the blade standing sideways to the aircraft.  I reach down, turn my hand towards the back of the aircraft, grabbing the end of the prop blade, with the blade at about the 7 O'Clock position for an M-14, and about 5 O'Clock for anything that spins the other way, and then I move my whole body back while pulling the blade UP.  This means that my natural motion is AWAY from the aircraft.  I can also use my whole body to LIFT the prop up.  Be aware though, I am big... 6'6" plus and well over 280 pounds.  (smile).  However, I have used this method to start 300+ HP IO-540's when no one else could.  I did not figure this method out.  I saw a movie of a guy doing it in the 1940's.  Worked for  him.  Works for me.  But it is not for everyone.  

  

 I take exception to ropes.    Ropes have a habit of getting caught up in things.  Seems safe enough but I just can see too many things going wrong with a rope.  In WW-II a rope and a prop device was used to pull the engines through, but never for starting that I know of.  Something goes wrong with a rope, and it happens to get caught up in a whirling prop ... man oh man,  LOOK OUT.  Ropes have been around a long time.  So have engines that need to be propped.  If it has not been done before now, there probably is a reason why not.  But, wheels always need to be re-invented and I am guilty of doing exactly that all the time.  

  

 You want to try it.. have at it.   Bottom line... people who have propped engines for years tend to develop their own methods... what works for me, probably won't work for everyone else.  

  

 The issue discussed of an engine starting just by pushing the start switch is very apt and correct.  It would be smart to push that button once before anyone lays a hand on the prop... and excuse me for not mentioning it explicitly.  

  

 Propping an unknown engine without any prior experience is just asking for it.   That is exactly how I ended up with my spare YAK-50.  Guy did exactl;y that (with no prior YAK experience) when the thing ran out of air and it ended up crashing into a hangar.  Bad for him, good for me.  

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 

 

 

   From: barryhancock <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:55:48 AM

Subject: Re: Hand Propping



--> Yak-List message posted by: "barryhancock" <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com (bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com)>



I think the rope idea is brilliant.  Also, you see a lot of guys standing in front of the prop to hand prop it.  Behind the prop would seem to be safer.  



All that being said....a spare air bottle is the optimal solution.  With a little time you can actually hard plumb a spare bottle into your  system.  More useable ballast.... 



Barry  



Oh, and Yurgis is one of the few guys who doesn't conform to the "there are no old, bold pilots" addage.  That guy is amazing... He stopped into my hangar a few years ago and left me a signed photo of him inverted with the vertical of his Su26 about a foot off the water on a river.  He's crazy..good, but crazy.



--------

Barry Hancock

Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.

www.worldwidewarbirds.com





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235952#235952

 	  Quote: 	
		      ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List  .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com  ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution    	
	




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fish(at)aviation-tech.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:59 pm Post subject: Hand Propping

Mark,



 When I was in C-130 Flight Engineer school we learned about the buddy start, and yes it is still in the manuals.

 I have not run into anyone who has actually done it. But I understand it was common during the Viet Nam Era.

 The preferred method for a broken starter, is a taxi start, which is similar to an air start.



 All C-130 takeoffs are calculated as three engine takeoffs. 

 That way if an engine fails you are still able to safely complete the takeoff.

 You just hope that you don't loose a second engine during takeoff.



 Turban engines create compression differently then Radial engines. 

 When a turban engine starts turning there is very little compression to deal with.

 As rotation increases, compression increases,

 Even with a gentle breeze you can see or hear turban engines spinning.



 In a radial engine, as soon as you move the prop, compression starts, resisting the turning movement.

 How much work does it take for you to move you prop by hand?

 Do you think that wind from a small prop, creates that much force?



 If you could start a Yak-52 with the buddy system, then my prop would spin on my Yak when parked outside.

 We regularly see winds gusting 40-50 MPH, and occasionally going even higher.

 I have yet to see my prop (or any other prop) moved by wind force alone.



 Laterrrrrr

 John Fischer

 California City, CA



 



 At 08:27 PM 3/24/2009, you wrote:

 [quote]Pappy, I believe you.  But I gotta tell you, bungees, ropes or ???  Hey, whatever works for you!   Rog on the safety issues.  

  

 Listen, this guy told me this story and I am wondering if anyone has heard of anything like this.  He claims that he once had a guy pull in front of him and run his engine up to just about full power and the PROP BLAST from the airplane in front started the aircraft he was in behind it!  

  

 I have actually seen this method work with two C-130's (called a "buddy start").  I have also been in a C-130 at Wake Island that rolled down the runway on three engines and air-started the forth on take-off.  Made me nervous, (we were at Gross Weight), but hey... it worked.  I have even read of this method (buddy start) being  used in the early days of jet aircraft!  But with something like a Cessna 180 ??  He says he did it.  

  

 I wonder if it would actually work on say a YAK-52?   I think I'll let someone else test it.. but it certainly sounds good in theory... rocks and flying debris aside that is.  

  

 Mark Bitterlich



  



 

 From: "cjpilot710(at)aol.com" <cjpilot710(at)aol.com>

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 2:42:08 PM

 Subject: Re: Re: Hand Propping

 

 Well I'm out with the B-24 in TPL, TX.  Its raining out side, vis is down to 1 1/2.  Its getting better.  At least the wind has dropped below 30kts.

  

 I have prop M-14 and HS6A a bunch of times.  A number of "ways" of doing it have already been mentioned here but 2 precautions have not.

  

 One:  Footing is very important.  Ice is obvious but so would be loose gravel, oil on black top, etc.  

  

 Two:  Age.  Us older guys have to start considering the physiological aspect of our bodies.  Old pilots need to be less bolder as we progress on ward. 

  

 I prop a gentlemen's Cub the other day, without any thought.  But to prop a M14/HS6A takes care and careful thought.  BTW as a co-pilot my captain and I once propped a DC-3 engine with a rope and a jeep.  We had sheared a starter shaft on the last flight of the day, leaving Freeport.  The skipper had flown C-47 over the Hump.  He found a rope and jeep, wrapped the rope around the prop hub several times so that it would not slip, and took off in the jeep.  My instructions were to hit the mags to "both" when the rope came clear.  Worked like a charm.

  

 There was also a sleeve and bungee method, which if I'm right was a regular alternate way to prop big engines if needed.  I bet it would work for us too.

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  

 In a message dated 3/24/2009 1:35:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, yakplt(at)yahoo.com writes:

   Just to stir the pot.  

   

  I hand-prop the engine differently than most anyone else.  I do not stand in front of the prop actually facing it on anything other than maybe a J-3 Cub.   Instead,  I pull the prop around until I can grab the blade standing sideways to the aircraft.  I reach down, turn my hand towards the back of the aircraft, grabbing the end of the prop blade, with the blade at about the 7 O'Clock position for an M-14, and about 5 O'Clock for anything that spins the other way, and then I move my whole body back while pulling the blade UP.  This means that my natural motion is AWAY from the aircraft.  I can also use my whole body to LIFT the prop up.  Be aware though, I am big... 6'6" plus and well over 280 pounds.  (smile).  However, I have used this method to start 300+ HP IO-540's when no one else could.  I did not figure this method out.  I saw a movie of a guy doing it in the 1940's.  Worked for him.  Works for me.  But it is not for everyone.  

   

  I take exception to ropes.    Ropes have a habit of getting caught up in things.  Seems safe enough but I just can see too many things going wrong with a rope.  In WW-II a rope and a prop device was used to pull the engines through, but never for starting that I know of.  Something goes wrong with a rope, and it happens to get caught up in a whirling prop ... man oh man,  LOOK OUT.  Ropes have been around a long time.  So have engines that need to be propped.  If it has not been done before now, there probably is a reason why not.  But, wheels always need to be re-invented and I am guilty of doing exactly that all the time.  

   

  You want to try it.. have at it.   Bottom line... people who have propped engines for years tend to develop their own methods... what works for me, probably won't work for everyone else.  

   

  The issue discussed of an engine starting just by pushing the start switch is very apt and correct.  It would be smart to push that button once before anyone lays a hand on the prop... and excuse me for not mentioning it explicitly.  

   

  Propping an unknown engine without any prior experience is just asking for it.   That is exactly how I ended up with my spare YAK-50.  Guy did exactl;y that (with no prior YAK experience) when the thing ran out of air and it ended up crashing into a hangar.  Bad for him, good for me.  

   

  Mark Bitterlich



   



 

  From:[/b] barryhancock <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com>

  To:[/b] yak-list(at)matronics.com

  Sent:[/b] Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:55:48 AM

  Subject:[/b] Re: Hand Propping

 

  --> Yak-List message posted by: "barryhancock" < bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com (bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com)>



  I think the rope idea is brilliant.  Also, you see a lot of guys standing in front of the prop to hand prop it.  Behind the prop would seem to be safer.  



  All that being said....a spare air bottle is the optimal solution.  With a little time you can actually hard plumb a spare bottle into your system.  More useable ballast.... 



  Barry  



  Oh, and Yurgis is one of the few guys who doesn't conform to the "there are no old, bold pilots" addage.  That guy is amazing... He stopped into my hangar a few years ago and left me a signed photo of him inverted with the vertical of his Su26 about a foot off the water on a river.  He's crazy...good, but crazy.



  --------

  Barry Hancock

  Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.

   www.worldwidewarbirds.com



 



 

  Read this topic online here:



    http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235952#235952



 



 



 

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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:39 pm Post subject: Hand Propping

All,

  

 I have made 707 -3 engine takeoffs when I flew with PAA (no pax) to ferry a  a/c to maintenance. Accelerate to Vmcg than start adding power on good  engines while still able to keep it straight, and rotate at Vr with full takeoff  power at that point. 

  

 I know that wind milling starts were done on piston jobs because of the  number of old timers who did them.   Lots of runway  needed.    Run down the runway with the mags on and the prop out  of feather. The prop would start to wind mill, mags kick in - bang- she'd  start. It surprisingly didn't take much speed, and engines like PW 1830  were real easy because their compression was spread over 14 cylinders.  I'd  had never heard of a buddy start on the radials - but - "never" is not a good  word.

  

 In Palestine (Texas that is)  700 overcast and 8nm vis. 

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  In a message dated 3/26/2009 5:00:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  fish(at)aviation-tech.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Mark,



When I was in C-130 Flight Engineer school we learned    about the buddy start, and yes it is still in the manuals.

I have not run    into anyone who has actually done it. But I understand it was common during    the Viet Nam Era.

The preferred method for a broken starter, is a taxi    start, which is similar to an air start.



All C-130 takeoffs are    calculated as three engine takeoffs. 

That way if an engine fails you are    still able to safely complete the takeoff.

You just hope that you don't    loose a second engine during takeoff.



Turban engines create compression    differently then Radial engines. 

When a turban engine starts turning there    is very little compression to deal with.

As rotation increases, compression    increases,

Even with a gentle breeze you can see or hear turban engines    spinning.



In a radial engine, as soon as you move the prop, compression    starts, resisting the turning movement.

How much work does it take for you    to move you prop by hand?

Do you think that wind from a small prop, creates    that much force?



If you could start a Yak-52 with the buddy system,    then my prop would spin on my Yak when parked outside.

We regularly see    winds gusting 40-50 MPH, and occasionally going even higher.

I have yet to    see my prop (or any other prop) moved by wind force    alone.



Laterrrrrr

John Fischer

California City,    CA



At 08:27 PM 3/24/2009, you wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		  Pappy, I believe you.  But I      gotta tell you, bungees, ropes or ???  Hey, whatever works for      you!   Rog on the safety issues.  

 

Listen, this      guy told me this story and I am wondering if anyone has heard of anything      like this.  He claims that he once had a guy pull in front of him and      run his engine up to just about full power and the PROP BLAST from the      airplane in front started the aircraft he was in behind it!       

 

I have actually seen this method work with two C-130's (called      a "buddy start").  I have also been in a C-130 at Wake Island that      rolled down the runway on three engines and air-started the forth on      take-off.  Made me nervous, (we were at Gross Weight), but hey... it      worked.  I have even read of this method (buddy start) being  used      in the early days of jet aircraft!  But with something like a Cessna      180 ??  He says he did it.  

 

I wonder if it would      actually work on say a YAK-52?   I think I'll let someone else      test it.. but it certainly sounds good in theory... rocks and flying debris      aside that is.  

 

Mark      Bitterlich



 

From:      "cjpilot710(at)aol.com" <cjpilot710(at)aol.com>

To:      yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 2:42:08      PM

Subject: Re: Re: Hand Propping



Well I'm out with the B-24 in TPL, TX.  Its raining out side,      vis is down to 1 1/2.  Its getting better.  At least the wind has      dropped below 30kts.

 

I have prop M-14 and HS6A a bunch of      times.  A number of "ways" of doing it have already been mentioned here      but 2 precautions have not.

 

One:  Footing is very      important.  Ice is obvious but so would be loose gravel, oil on black      top, etc.  

 

Two:  Age.  Us older guys have to      start considering the physiological aspect of our bodies.  Old pilots      need to be less bolder as we progress on ward. 

 

I prop a      gentlemen's Cub the other day, without any thought.  But to prop a      M14/HS6A takes care and careful thought.  BTW as a co-pilot my captain      and I once propped a DC-3 engine with a rope and a jeep.  We had      sheared a starter shaft on the last flight of the day, leaving      Freeport.  The skipper had flown C-47 over the Hump.  He found a      rope and jeep, wrapped the rope around the prop hub several times so that it      would not slip, and took off in the jeep.  My instructions were to hit      the mags to "both" when the rope came clear.  Worked like a      charm.

 

There was also a sleeve and bungee method, which if I'm      right was a regular alternate way to prop big engines if needed.  I bet      it would work for us too.

 

Jim "Pappy"      Goolsby

 

 

In a message dated 3/24/2009 1:35:36 P.M.      Eastern Daylight Time, yakplt(at)yahoo.com writes:

            Just to stir the pot.  

       

         I hand-prop the engine differently than most anyone else.  I do        not stand in front of the prop actually facing it on anything other than        maybe a J-3 Cub.   Instead,  I pull the prop around until I        can grab the blade standing sideways to the aircraft.  I reach down,        turn my hand towards the back of the aircraft, grabbing the end of the        prop blade, with the blade at about the 7 O'Clock position for an M-14,        and about 5 O'Clock for anything that spins the other way, and then I move        my whole body back while pulling the blade UP.  This means that my        natural motion is AWAY from the aircraft.  I can also use my whole        body to LIFT the prop up.  Be aware though, I am big... 6'6" plus and        well over 280 pounds.  (smile).  However, I have used this        method to start 300+ HP IO-540's when no one else could.  I did not        figure this method out.  I saw a movie of a guy doing it in the        1940's.  Worked for him.  Works for me.  But it is not for        everyone.  

       

         I take exception to ropes.    Ropes have a habit of        getting caught up in things.  Seems safe enough but I just can see        too many things going wrong with a rope.  In WW-II a rope and a prop        device was used to pull the engines through, but never for starting that I         know of.  Something goes wrong with a rope, and it happens to get        caught up in a whirling prop ... man oh man,  LOOK OUT.  Ropes        have been around a long time.  So have engines that need to be        propped.  If it has not been done before now, there probably is a        reason why not.  But, wheels always need to be re-invented and I am        guilty of doing exactly that all the time.  

       

         You want to try it.. have at it.   Bottom line... people who        have propped engines for years tend to develop their own methods... what        works for me, probably won't work for everyone else.  

       

         The issue discussed of an engine starting just by pushing the start        switch is very apt and correct.  It would be smart to push that        button once before anyone lays a hand on the prop... and excuse me for not        mentioning it explicitly.  

       

         Propping an unknown engine without any prior experience is just asking        for it.   That is exactly how I ended up with my spare        YAK-50.  Guy did exactl;y that (with no prior YAK experience) when        the thing ran out of air and it ended up crashing into a hangar.  Bad        for him, good for me.  

       

         Mark Bitterlich



       

         From:[/b] barryhancock        <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com>

       To:[/b] yak-list(at)matronics.com

       Sent:[/b] Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:55:48 AM

       Subject:[/b] Re: Hand Propping



       --> Yak-List message posted by: "barryhancock" <        bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com (bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com)>



       I think the rope idea is brilliant.  Also, you see a lot of guys        standing in front of the prop to hand prop it.  Behind the prop would        seem to be safer.  



       All that being said....a spare air bottle is the optimal        solution.  With a little time you can actually hard plumb a spare        bottle into your system.  More useable ballast.... 



       Barry  



       Oh, and Yurgis is one of the few guys who doesn't conform to the        "there are no old, bold pilots" addage.  That guy is amazing... He        stopped into my hangar a few years ago and left me a signed photo of him        inverted with the vertical of his Su26 about a foot off the water on a        river.  He's crazy...good, but crazy.



       --------

       Barry Hancock

       Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.

       www.worldwidewarbirds.com





       Read this topic online here:



       http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=235952#235952

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  [quote][b]

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:35 pm Post subject: Hand Propping

Makes sense to me!  



Mark

 



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HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Hand Propping

Fish,



I have seen a buddy start...it gets a bit bumpy behind a herk trying to jump start you. We used to "cuff" #3..or was it "4" for that reason...they quit doing it years ago...but it can be done.

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