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frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:34 am Post subject: Battery capacity

Hi,



The Europa build manual states that for the Rotax engine, a battery of

16 Ah is recommended.



I have been thinking about this, and would like to share my thoughts.



1) For cranking power, the battery Amp-hours is a vague indicator, but

nothing more than that. A battery of 5 Ah could well be able to deliver

more amp's for starting than a certain 16 Ah battery. The Amp hours tell

you something about the total energy conserved in the battery, nothing

more. Just like the amount of fuel in your tank doesn't say much about

the power of the engine (but one could state that a small tank is

somewhat indicative of a small engine). If the battery has enough Amps

to crank the engine, the amount of Amp hours indicates how long and how

often one can run the starter before the engine starts.

2) The battery capacity usually allows for "starting problems", i.e. to

flood your engine, crank it dry, try again, etc, switch it off again at

the fuel station, start again after refueling with the same problems, do

some trouble shooting, etc.

3) In a usual setup the function of the battery is twofold: Producing

power to start the engine, and providing emergency power when the

alternator fails. In a dual alternator setup however, the second

function of the battery is not necessary. (OK, during an engine failure

when both alternators stop, the battery still has to provide power, but

this situation usually doesn't last for very long and even a small

battery is sufficient to issue a mayday call, to deploy the flaps, and

play your favorite song on the panel mounted CD player.).

4) With a 16 Ah battery, one should assume that it is possible to start

the engine with the last few Amp-hours left (the capacity is there to be

used, otherwise one could do with a smaller battery anyway), so it is

feasable one starts the trip with an almost depleted battery. The

alternator is then supposed to recharge the battery during the trip.

Now, we all know about the fabulous power output of the Rotax

alternator. To top off a 16 Ah battery, you need to charge the battery

for 1 hour with 16 Amp's. Or for 2 hours with 8 Amp's (100% efficiency

unrealistically assumed). But the Rotax alternator has just enough power

to keep the avionics powered in a typical setup, with only very few

Amp's to spare to charge the battery. With other words, a 16 Ah battery

will probably never get properly charged again once it's capacity has

been put to use (unless using a mains connected charger on the ground).



I have a setup with dual alternators, and dual batteries. Idea behind

this is to be able to fully deplete one battery during glider activities

(future MG), while still keeping a not used battery for restarting at

hand. And of course to have full redundancy, with a fuel pump on each

bus, a navigational instrument on each bus, etc, and to be able to keep

flying even after a total failure of one bus.



Why am I telling all this:

The battery capacity.

I plan to use one 5 Ah battery on each bus, nothing more... These babies

are able to produce 250 Amp's momentarily each, while the Rotax starter

needs 60 Amp's to crank the engine.

I plan to start on just one bus (so just one battery), and one battery

should be sufficient to start and even allow for a few failed attempts.

And then if all fails, there is yet another battery.

When an alternator fails during flight, I always have another alternator

to power the essentials and keep the airplane flying as long as the fuel

allows. The "dead" bus still has a small battery to power a secondary

fuel pump for about one hour, in case there are multiple failures.



The advantage of this minimalistic battery setup is of course the

weight: a total of just under 4 kilo's, (8.8 lbs), for both batteries

together. As a typical 16Ah battery weighs in at more than the double

amount, so this setup more than compensates for the weight of the

secondary alternator.



For less weight, more juice during flight, more redundancy, etc.

It just sounds to good to be true. Hence my suspicion:



Any comments on my reasoning?

Is my assumption that the Rotax usually starts within 10 seconds acceptable?

Has any of you ever depleted a 16 Ah battery during starting?

If so, how many start attempts did you get out of this 16 Ah battery?

And did you get this 16 Ah battery recharged again with just the Rotax

alternator?



Has anyone else experience with a "minimalistic battery setup"?



-- 

Frans Veldman

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:03 am Post subject: Battery capacity

Hi Frans 

I just completed battery selection and install on 914 XS mono with both sets of wings.I contenplated various configurations, included was using only 1 Odyssey PC310 or Ultrastart Red with my suplimental 2.2 amp battery, or one of each 310 and Ultrastart.I am am electric model aeroplane guy and am not unfamiliar with pushing battery capacity to limits.A few comments:****I talked to the guy markets the Ultrastart and the 13. The 13 is just a PC545 with another nametag. Folk who sell them (13) have details that are different than PC545, what else is new, a sales brochure that is less than accurate. I went with a PC545 with no metal jacket and a 2.2 amp supplimental with ability to use any size battery I want by plugging into Sermos (Anderson Power Pole) connectors. Good chance I will make model packs at precise voltage I need for Europa!****You are quoting sales brochure numbers that sound good. "I plan to use one 5 Ah battery on each bus, nothing more... These babies > are able to produce 250 Amp's momentarily each"My question is at what voltage? Also another question is what is service life using this battery at a 50 plus amp draw for starting? Will such abuse cause a internal open failure? Is it worth the added complexity to parallel for starting? If your motor doesn't start in 5 seconds, what will the voltage be next attempt?****Are you happy using the very small terminals on Red? http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/atphighpwr.phpOr small terminals on PC310? (better than the Ultrastart)http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc310.htmIf you were to use 2 batteries I would devise a plan to use both for starting. A sales brochure may say 5 amps, but I can almost with a shadow of doubt state that on a colder day asking starting amp draw you are not going to get anywhere near 5 amp capacity! Ask your one remaining untouched battery after soaring to start up a now cold engine (with cold oil) when it is cold and you may be surprised to find that it will not crank as fast as you would like (low voltage).I can spout that my 2.2 amp hour battery can dump over 150 amps for short times (which it can) but only for a limited number of times, at a much reduced voltage and much reduced capacity. It is very happy to dump dump 5C though many many times.Bill Dube used to subscribe to Aeroelectric and races a 0 to 60 in under 1 second electric motorcycle. He uses A123 cells and loves them. He was offering a A123 pack for aeroplane use for a while (charging circuit that was aeroplane happy). Now that may be worth considering in addition to a PC310, or have him make you a second battery with half the number of paralleled cells.I went witha PC545, since it is mounted aft thus no need for metal jacket, aluminium #4 wires with copper clad and a second total loss 2.2 amp battery with ability to take along any size total loss battery to suit mission. I have a vacuum pad mounted SD20S with LR3C from B+C.BTW in under 10 seconds I can turn off main battery with a Flaming River race car switch and run pump #2 direct off of total loss battery.I have details:http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album258&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php  on Odyssey batteries:  Album: High amp "light" batteries, high amp "light" fat wires, high and low amp "very" thin wires, integral high amp bypass/buss as light as you can get with low resistance. Y9-01-01  Last change: 04/01/09 Contains: 80 items

 Viewed: 622 times.

 

 

  

and total loss battery: Album: Passenger headrest to get Flaming River race car battery switch, 9 breakers on back and plenty of electrical "stuff" inside. Y8-12-09  Last change: 03/15/09 Contains: 45 items

 Viewed: 375 times.

 

 

Good luckRon ParigorisIn your case if you absolute want 2 batteries, consider the PC310s instead. Make up some of the weight difference with aluminium wire.   [quote][b]

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:09 am Post subject: Battery capacity

Hi!Frans

With the 6 cylinder Jabiru I needed 2x 13amp hour "starting" batteries

Oddessy or Red Top wired in parallel. The starter on it was likely to

pull momentarily in excess of 100 amps. I now have the Rotax 914 with

two replacement batteries (the others were 9 years old and showed NO

signs of distress) and the heavy duty starter just needs a stab on the

button and the engine is away, no clunking and wings flapping as the

usual scenario!

The point being that the word is STARTER battery ....one that can

release instant massive power. Don't get just bog standard batteries get

STARTER Battery's

It is quite possible with the battery location being on the passenger

foot well that one of these would do the job but why be on a song and a

prayer?

Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG



--

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:12 am Post subject: Battery capacity

Frans, A single Odyssey 16 amp/hour battery has done me extremely well for 6 

years, without ever blinking. It also had ample in reserve when I had 

regulator failure and stopped charging 1/2 way between Ostend and the Essex 

coast. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ, 914

---

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:43 am Post subject: Battery capacity

David Joyce wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Frans, A single Odyssey 16 amp/hour battery has done me extremely well


	


I have no doubt about this, but I'm looking for a way to save some

unneccesary weight. 16 amp/hour appears a little bit "overdone" for me

if one has two alternators on board. (I need two alternators anyway

because the Rotax alternator/Ducati regulator will not reliably deliver

enough power for my setup, so it is sort of logical to extend this

proposition further into two fully separate buses for extra redundancy).

Also, because I have two fully separate electrical busses, I will need

two batteries as well, and carrying two 16 amp/hour batteries is really

out of the question. 



A nice alternative could be two PC310 Odyssey batteries (each 8

amp/hours) (thanks, Ron). This will give me 16 amp/hours in total as

well, but divided over two fully separate systems. But without weight

savings. 



-- 

Frans Veldman

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:34 am Post subject: Battery capacity

Hi Ron,



 	  Quote: 	
		   http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc310.htm


	


Ok, I think I will go with 2 PC310's.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I went witha PC545, since it is mounted aft thus no need for metal

 jacket, aluminium #4 wires with copper clad and a second total loss 2.2


	


About the aluminium #4 wire:

I did some calculations. Aluminium offers little advantage over copper.

The sales brochure will try to let you believe something else.

The error is that they compare #4 alu wire with #4 copper wire. This

saves 45% of weight indeed. What they don't tell you (it is also

forgotten in their data sheets) is that the conductivity of aluminium is

less. #4 alu wire has even less conductivity than #6 copper wire. And #6

copper wire weighs a lot less than #4 copper wire which they used for

comparison. Now do the comparison again... leave the math to you. 

What is the weight saved?



I will use #6 copper wire. This will give me a voltage drop of 0.5 Volts

with batteries in bagage bay (guestimated a 9 ft back and forth). Your

thicker aluminium #4 wire will give a loss of 0.7 Volts....



Just found an online-calculator for this:

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm near the bottom of the page.



Have fun! 



-- 

Frans Veldman

kevann(at)gotsky.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:35 am Post subject: Battery capacity

I went with one PC680 and two alternators, and two busses including an 

e-buss alternate feed path. I don't  think you could run down the 17 ah batt 

during a days soaring such that it would not crank the engine, unless you 

run lights and everything while soaring.

I keep the battery in great shape by plugging into a maintainer in the 

hanger, and changing the battery for a new one every two years. The used 

battery goes into my subaru car for the next two years.

I also used the CCA fat  (#4)wires to the rear mounted batt. to save some 

weight.



Kevin

so far only short wings

---

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:56 am Post subject: Battery capacity

Hi Kevin



"I also used the CCA fat (#4)wires to the rear mounted batt. to save some weight."



Did you crimp and solder terminals, or just crimp?



The CCA strands work harden very easily. Can you explain (perhaps a pix) of how you routed and strain relieved the connection to battery to avoid fatigue and breakage?



Thx.

Ron Parigoris

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:12 am Post subject: Battery capacity

Hi Frans 

"> About the aluminium #4 wire: > I did some calculations. Aluminium offers little advantage over copper. > The sales brochure will try to let you believe something else. > The error is that they compare #4 alu wire with #4 copper wire. This > saves 45% of weight indeed. What they don't tell you (it is also > forgotten in their data sheets) is that the conductivity of aluminium is > less. #4 alu wire has even less conductivity than #6 copper wire. And #6 > copper wire weighs a lot less than #4 copper wire which they used for > comparison. Now do the comparison again... leave the math to you.  > What is the weight saved? "Your math is fuzzy.Eric Jones does in fact speak all about the fact that resistance of #4 CCA has same resistance as #4 Tefzel:http://www.periheliondesign.com./fatwires_files/Copper%20cables.pdfalso read install manual.I saved a pound:http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album266&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php&page=1#6 wire especially with an aft battery will be marginal at best. Your .5 volt drop may be running the panel but when you crank 50 plus amps it will be far greater. If you want reliable starts on a cold engine best go minimum of #4. That said I was thinking pretty hard about using #5 CCA. Eric sells Teflon covered CCA. I purchased the yellow cover CCA. If you were to strip the covering off #4 CCA, you could easily unwind and make a #5 wire, then heat shrink on some Teflon heat shrink tube!Another reason I like the aluminium wire is although it saves a pound, it moves CG a bit more forward.Redo your math. Ron Parigoris   [quote][b]

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:19 am Post subject: Battery capacity

Oooooppps"> Another reason I like the aluminium wire is > although it saves a pound, it moves CG a bit more forward."Meant to say it moves CG more aft (takes some weight forward of CG).Ron Parigoris   [quote][b]

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:59 am Post subject: Battery capacity

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Your math is fuzzy.


	


Well, show me a better math then.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Eric Jones does in fact speak all about the fact that resistance of #4


	


Eric Jones is the guy that sells the stuff, and ommitted the

ohms-per-feet figures in the pdf... He compares cables with the same

diameter, doesn't talk about voltage drop, while the interesting thing

is to compare two cables with the same voltage drop (over the same

length and with equal amount of amperes) and THEN do the weighing.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I saved a pound:


	


No, you didn't. At least not if you compare it with copper wire with the

SAME RESISTANCE as your CCA wire (instead of the same diameter).



Hey, I know a great way to save even more weight: Buy my special teflon

#4 cable, absolutely metal-free! It weighs 5% of the copper cable with

the same diameter! Now that's a real bargain! 



 	  Quote: 	
		   #6 wire especially with an aft battery will be marginal at best. Your .5

 volt drop may be running the panel but when you crank 50 plus amps it

 will be far greater.


	


Well, #6 copper wire has a lower voltage drop than your #4 CCA wire. If

#6 wire is marginal, #4 CCA wire is sub-marginal. 



 	  Quote: 	
		   Redo your math. 


	


Now show me the ohms-per-feet of copper, and the ohms-per-feet of

aluminium. Then we can do a trivial calculation, where we compare the

weight of aluminium and copper WITH THE SAME VOLTAGE DROP (which is

entirely different than the comparison of two cables of equal diameter.

 )



Granted, there is a little weight saved, but it is nowhere near 45% as

they claimed.



-- 

Frans Veldman

terrys(at)cisco.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:19 am Post subject: Battery capacity

We chose a 25 Amp hr battery with the assumption that we would

eventually build long wings for our Europa (which we eventually did) and

that we would need plenty of battery capacity to run various avionics

for several hours with the engine off.  We have since flown with the

engine off for about an hour max, and had the voltage to the instruments

drop to the point where they started dropping out (we were consuming

about 2.5 amps).  Our problem is that there are small voltage drop at

many locations that can add up to as much as 2 volts.  So when the

battery drops to 12.0 volts, the instruments see 10.0 V, and have

problems operating there.  We have spent some time looking for the

voltage drops.  They come from each connection (spade lugs, etc.), each

switch, and each circuit breaker.  The biggest drops are in the

individual circuit breakers in the switch panel we bought from Aircraft

Spruce.  We have reduced some of the drops by coating connections with

silver grease, but have not come up with a good solution for the drops

in the circuit breakers.

We have since swapped out the 25 Ahr battery for a 16 Ahr battery, to

save a little weight.



As far as charging the battery, we have only the stock alternator, which

has no trouble keeping the battery charged.  We were very careful to

keep our power consumption low, using a mechanical master contactor

(saves 1 Amp), low power strobes (4A vs 7A), LED Nav lights, lower power

radio and xponder, etc.



Regards,

Terry Seaver

A135 / N135TD

--

christoph.both(at)acadiau
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:32 am Post subject: Battery capacity

Folks,

I don't appreciate these kind of exchanges, especially on an open forum.

There is nothing wrong being precise and knowledgeable but it is the

kind of words we use which makes all the difference. Let's be precise

but kind.

Christoph Both

#223 Classis

Nova Scotia, Canada



--

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:38 am Post subject: Battery capacity

Hi Frans 

I don't have all my documentation here. 

For Tefzel wire, you can look up info in 43.13 

Did you read Erics install manual like I reccomended? 

http://www.periheliondesign.com./fatwires_files/FatwireInstallationManual-4.pdf#4 CCA is .435" diameter and .244 miliohms per foot and 1.72 oz per foot. Larger diameter and bout same resistance as #4 copper but lighter per foot..43.13 has #4 wire at .28 ohms per 1000foot and #6 at .44 ohms.I don't have the weight of #4 tefzel with me, but weighed samples I had on hand.Is there something the matter with my math?BTW read on the website I sent you about PC310 batteries about charging. Although they will somewhat work with normal lead acid battery chargers, you want to follow their recomondations. I will set my LR3C at 14.7 volts.Ron Parigoris   [quote][b]

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:49 am Post subject: Battery capacity

Hi Terry,



 	  Quote: 	
		   for several hours with the engine off.  We have since flown with the

 engine off for about an hour max, and had the voltage to the instruments

 drop to the point where they started dropping out (we were consuming

 about 2.5 amps).  Our problem is that there are small voltage drop at

 many locations that can add up to as much as 2 volts.  So when the

 battery drops to 12.0 volts, the instruments see 10.0 V, and have

 problems operating there.  We have spent some time looking for the

 voltage drops.  They come from each connection (spade lugs, etc.), each

 switch, and each circuit breaker.  The biggest drops are in the

 individual circuit breakers in the switch panel we bought from Aircraft

 Spruce.


	


2 Volts of loss appears pretty much to me. As I don't have the engine

running yet, I'm playing/testing with the avionics on just the (scrap)

batteries, and as far as I can tell I have nothing near 2 Volts of

voltage drop.



What you could do here:

1) Use regular fuses, they have less voltage drop than circuit breakers.

2) Make sure not to use too small wire sizes.

3) Run one heavy ground wire, as every avionics item needs ground, this

saves half of the wire losses with just one wire.

4) Use as few connectors as practical. I have one connector that

connects the instrument panel to the rest of the ship, the rest is soldered.

5) For voltage sensitive equipment, use a DC-DC-converter, which accepts

any input voltage and always puts out 12 Volts.

6) A rarely used trick, but worth considering, is to use a 7 cell

battery. This will give you a nominal voltage of 14 Volts.



-- 

Frans Veldman

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 10:06 am Post subject: Battery capacity

Christoph Both wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Folks,

 I don't appreciate these kind of exchanges, especially on an open forum.

 There is nothing wrong being precise and knowledgeable but it is the

 kind of words we use which makes all the difference. Let's be precise

 but kind.


	


I apologize if my posting didn't look kind. I did not intent to be

unfriendly.

Please understand that English is not my native language and that the

subtile differences between "not agreeing but kind" and "not agreeing

and not friendly" are difficult to master. If one agrees, the exact

wordings used don't matter, it is always friendly. But not agreeing is

an entirely different and more difficult matter. 



I guess for Ron applies the same. We apparently don't agree on the

aluminium cable thing, but I consider him as a friend and do not intend

to be unfriendly to him, nor to anyone else on this forum.



-- 

Best regards,

Frans Veldman

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 10:24 am Post subject: Battery capacity

Hi Ron,



 	  Quote: 	
		   Did you read Erics install manual like I reccomended?


	


I thought I did, but this pdf contains information that is missing in

the pdf on top of the page.



 	  Quote: 	
		   #4 CCA is .435" diameter and .244 miliohms per foot and 1.72 oz per

 foot. Larger diameter and bout same resistance as #4 copper but lighter

 per foot..


	


Well, this explains a lot.

So far I have always learned that the "gauge number" indicates the

DIAMETER of the cable. So, #4 cable in aluminium is the same diameter as

#4 copper cable.

Now it appears that this #4 CCA cable is more than twice the diameter of

what one normally would call #4 cable.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Is there something the matter with my math?


	


No, there is something the matter with the name of the cable, which

suggest that it has a diameter of #4. Why would someone name something

#4 cable, while it has twice the diameter? :-S



If you do the math according to the standard cable sizes (seen the

online calculator I recommended?) then #4 aluminum cable comes out worse

than #6 copper cable.



So, we were both right after all with our math but I have to admit being

mislead by the "#4" indication suggesting that this cable would have a

diameter of gauge #4.



However, if his "#4 CCA" cable has indeed the same resistance as #4

copper cable, by increasing diameter, then the weight saving is indeed

worthwile.



 	  Quote: 	
		   BTW read on the website I sent you about PC310 batteries about charging.

 Although they will somewhat work with normal lead acid battery chargers,

 you want to follow their recomondations. I will set my LR3C at 14.7 volts.


	


I also have that Ducati-thing on the other alternator. Guess I have to

put a diode in series with its sense lead to crank up the voltage somewhat.



-- 

Frans Veldman

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 10:28 am Post subject: Battery capacity

I wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Eric Jones is the guy that sells the stuff, and ommitted the

 ohms-per-feet figures in the pdf... He compares cables with the same

 diameter,


	


Disregard, as in this case the assumption that all #4 cables have the

same diameter appears to be wrong.



The rest of this posting continues on this wrong assumption. 



-- 

Frans Veldman

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:06 am Post subject: Battery capacity

Hi Christopher"> I guess for Ron applies the same. We apparently don't agree on the > aluminium cable thing, but I consider him as a friend and do not intend > to be unfriendly to him, nor to anyone else on this forum."I too consider Frans a friend and was in no way intending to be arrogant if I came off that way, just bringing up a point as a matter of fact that needed further probing.No disrespect was intended.SincerelyRon Parigoris   [quote][b]

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:54 pm Post subject: Battery capacity

Hi FransGlad we are both now on same page.#4 welding cable is different in diameter (larger) than solid copper single strand. Circular mils of copper is usually close. That said some tefzel #4 that looks close to same strands are different diameter, so don't think diameter is absolute.I saw somewhere else that aluminium wire is sized to resistance of similar copper. Think it was when "tipping" (pigtailing copper to aluminium wire with a wire nut and aluminium oxide paste) my home which has aluminium wire. Same gauge solid aluminium is larger in diameter than solid copper."I also have that Ducati-thing on the other alternator. Guess I have to > put a diode in series with its sense lead to crank up the voltage > somewhat."Good idea to increase setpoint if you can. Where exactly would you put diode in circuit? What value diode? Has anyone out there changed Ducati setpoint? How did you do it and how has it been working?Ron Parigoris   [quote][b]

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