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Mounting the Rudder

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fklein(at)orcasonline.com
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Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:12 pm Post subject: Mounting the Rudder

..just as an aside, the concept of "trial fitting"...the time and the  

number of repetitions required...is something I had no real  

appreciation for at the beginning of my Europa adventure...



Regarding the rudder, I notice that the flange which receives the  

hinges is significantly thinner than the assembly of the molded FG  

vertical fin along with the starboard flange of the sternpost, an  

assembly which also receives the rudder hinge leaves.



The manual talks about relieving the starboard flange assembly locally  

for the "hinge pivot" but sez nothin bout removing enough of the  

thickness of the assembly in such a way which would allow for the fin  

and starboard rudder surfaces to be in the same plane, unless one were  

to add a significant amount of filler.



I'm tempted to remove portions of the starboard flange of the  

sternpost just a tad larger than the area of the hinge leaves; then  

add and overlap onto the sternpost the 2 layers of BID upon which will  

rest the hinges.



Please (anyone) advise if doing this is not a good thing...or  

alternative methods for dealing with what must be an issue with every  

XS.



Thanks,



Fred

A194



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craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:39 pm Post subject: Mounting the Rudder

I believe they are referring to the "joggle" areas of the stern post, when

the manual

calls for removal of the fibreglass where it ends up 3 layers thick.

otherwise you will have

trouble getting the swing to port, and the hinge wont sit flat either. That

was all i removed

and reglassed and it worked nicely.



craig



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budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 6:42 pm Post subject: Mounting the Rudder

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Fred,

 It is as Craig said.  Only remove the area where the dumb joggle juts  out and interferes with the hinge.

 The lower section is very thick and if you did not clamp your stern post in  tight, it tends to be 3/16 of an inch thick.

 I just fill in the rudder area and blend.  Life is too short.   Cutting the stern post would weaken the area somewhat, but proper reapplication  of plies would make a significant reduction in the thickness.

  

 Just a thought.

  

 Bud

 [quote]   ---

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:00 pm Post subject: Mounting the Rudder

Craig and Bud...thanks for the replies..and I agree that life is too short!



Yes I understand about cutting the joggles where they conflict w/ the rudder swing and/or hinge leaves.

I had been thinking of the rudder flange as being/functioning just like the aileron flanges...w/ the ailerons, of course, the idea is to have the surface of the flange in the same plane as the surface of the wing at the rear closeout...not so easy to do w/ the rudder and the abutting surface of the fin on the starboard side.

My point is that because of the difference in thickness between the rudder flange (where one hinge leaf sits) and the sternpost + fin skin (where the other hinge leaf sits)...the starboard surface of the rudder will not be in the same plane as the surface of the fin...it will be offset by whatever the difference in thickness of the two components.

I don't see that as necessarily being a problem...especially if one can split the difference and end up w/ the planes of fin skin and rudder on both sides being offset equally. 

What I didn't understand was whether the goal was to keep the  starboard side of fin and rudder in one plane...or split the difference?

Bud...what I'm taking away from your response is to NOT cut out the sternpost flange to provide a seat for the hinge leaves, and the planar issues I describe are unimportant, as long as everything is straight and true.

Fred

On Apr 4, 2009, at 7:35 PM, ALAN YERLY wrote:

[quote]Fred,

It is as Craig said.  Only remove the area where the dumb joggle juts out and interferes with the hinge.

The lower section is very thick and if you did not clamp your stern post in tight, it tends to be 3/16 of an inch thick.

I just fill in the rudder area and blend.  Life is too short.  Cutting the stern post would weaken the area somewhat, but proper reapplication of plies would make a significant reduction in the thickness.

 

Just a thought.

 

Bud

[quote]---

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 3:58 am Post subject: Mounting the Rudder

Hi FredI added a second lower hinge on my XS monowheel as I am using factory setup for monowheel tailwheel. When doing so, I added some reinforcement on the inboard side of flange to not only stiffen things, but to offset rudder to the starboard and a G-10 spacer.In other words instead of mutilating sternpost/removing material to get rudder offset more starboard, I put more space between the rudder hinge and the rudder flange. It nets to perhaps halfway less filler that will be needed compared if I left it as per manual. I can't remember exactly, but think lower hinges got 2 BID on the inside of the flange and a thin ~ 1/16" piece of G-10 under the lower 2 hinges, and it was necessary to put ~ 1/8" piece of G-10 under the middle and upper hinge to make all have the same hinge line. Yes I needed to redo all hinges on my rudder.I saw fiberglass cracked around lower hinge of a taildragger (at) 2007 Rough River. There can be a lot of stress on lower hinge with factory setup. As Graham pointed out if you were to push both rudder pedals at the same time, or John Hurst pointed out lower hinge area tends to get cracking around hinge area in fiberglass.Instead of switching over to Singleton rudder/tailwheel mod I:Added a second lower hingeReinforced both lower hinges 2 BID outside and think 2 BID inside of flangeReinforced lower heel closeout for rudder driveFabricated some close fit Titanium spacers instead of using a stack of washersAt same time offset hinge so rudder is moved outboardNote on hinges, manual shows picture (on aileron) where the part that wears out is on the surface that is bonded and riveted. I like idea of putting part that wears out as the movable surface much better. Also when bonding hinges, I used Redux to make bond, and first ply of glass is Redux/BID/Peelply for better aluminium bind.I have some pix and details:http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album223&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.phpRon Parigoris   [quote][b]

bdanbish(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 8:46 pm Post subject: Mounting the Rudder

Hi Fred,



For what it's worth, I just posted a bunch of photos of the rudder install. Sounds like we're working on the same thing. I too, found that the joggle on the sternpost was way too thick so I sanded it off and made a flat surface for the hinge. Now, there's a major difference here in that the guys that started the kit went with one long hinge instead of the 3 smaller ones per the manual. So I had to get a somewhat smooth and level surface top to bottom. 



To accomplish this, I scuff sanded then did a layup of epoxy and micro, applied a straight edge, then let cure. Sanded it down to the same approximate thickness top to bottom, drilled holes for clecos then trial fitted the rudder and it worked fine. I have to loosed the clecos, then install the rudder pin, then cleco back but it is snug and firm and operates fine to both sides. 



The photos aren't captioned yet but I'm working on that. They at:



http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=Rudder-Tailwheel&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php&page 



Let me know if you have any questions,



Dan

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:51 pm Post subject: Mounting the Rudder

On Apr 5, 2009, at 9:43 PM, danbish wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 For what it's worth, I just posted a bunch of photos of the rudder  

 install. Sounds like we're working on the same thing.


	


Hey Dan...thanks mucho.



Your pixs are great...I did notice one thing which may be of interest.  

I notice on photo #58 that you have the Graham S. tailwheel set up (as  

do I). I see that you have the original horn which receives the cables  

for the tail wheel...I believe the holes are 4" o.c. In a memorable  

conversation I had with William Mills at SnF '07, he strongly  

recommended making up a replacement which would have 3 sets of holes,  

4", 5", and 6" o.c. respectively to give one a means of adjusting the  

sensitivity of the turning of the tailwheel in relation to that of the  

rudder. William believed that the novice Europa mono driver would find  

handling the mono, particularly on hard surface, much easier to get  

the knack of it with the cables out at the 6" o.c. holes. This set up  

does have the drawback of increasing the minimum turning radius  

somewhat...so as one acclimates to the mono and gets the pucker factor  

within reason, it would be desireable to transition to the narrower  

spread. If you'd like a pix of it, I'd be happy to send you one.



Fred



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bdanbish(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 10:23 pm Post subject: Mounting the Rudder

Hi Fred,



I think I have that pix already as I have heard about that change. I had decided to try it like it is to start, having learned in a tail dragger I was hoping it wouldn't feel too different. If I sense a big difference on taxi tests, I'll make the change then. Not that I'm opposed to it, just have so many "to-do's" and mods already, trying to keep it to a minimum.



Nonetheless, the advice and notice is much appreciated. I put some notes up with the photos tonight if they're of any interest to you.



All the best,



Dan

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:18 am Post subject: Mounting the Rudder

On Apr 5, 2009, at 11:22 PM, danbish wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		    I had decided to try it like it is to start, having learned in a  

 tail dragger I was hoping it wouldn't feel too different.


	


Dan,



With 70 hrs in J-3s and 550 in a Stinson 108, I figure I too have a  

leg up on mastering the mono, but from all reports, that experience  

may only be worth one leg...not the two which even a toddler needs,  

even for those baby steps! )



May all your landings be happy ones,



Fred

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budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:35 pm Post subject: Mounting the Rudder

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Just a thought out loud Fred,

  

 Reflecting back on how the original classic was made, you know  Fred...Cutting down the skin to fit the flange would work (provided you cleaned  up the edge, and reglassed over it.  It would give you a flat surface  and prevent those stupid rudder hinge screws from being on an angle...  Of  course you could cut the flange as well I suppose.

  

 It will take you more time,   

  

 Bud

 [quote]   ---

bdanbish(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:28 pm Post subject: Mounting the Rudder

Hey Fred,



I'll take you up on that diagram after all, if you have it. Can't put my hands on mine. Will add it to my mod list.



Thanks,



Dan

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

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