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kiwimick

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Location: ENGLAND

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject: Jabiru

Jet Pilot,

Take it you have not been in this game long then,

You say the Jab has more probs than a 912, Maybe in the USA you don't get 

the Rotax SB's so I will apologize now, but as a Rotax and Jabiru service 

centre and operator of both on our school A/C I can say with first hand 

experience that there is bugger all between them in reliability, and the 

Rotax has a SB almost every other month,  they are both very good, serivce 

intervals on the jab are now as good as the 912 as well as no G-Box maint.

Also with first hand exp I can confirm that Our Jab powered Xtra gets off 

the ground quicker than a 912 powered Classic (tested on same day) for CAA.

I would be confident to stake my aircraft on that, the 912 will climb a bit 

better from about 200 feet onwards though and Jab not quite as fast at full 

power but I cruise at 80 mph at 2550rpm, 90mph at 2800, and 95 at 2950.

Maybe you forgot all the problems the 912 had in the first 5-8 yrs, theJab 

is well sorted now.



Mike

Xtra/Jab

---

_________________
Mike the kiwi Kolber in England.......

kiwimick

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Location: ENGLAND

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:38 pm Post subject: Jabiru

John, Yep that is no prob now, I can vouch for that.



Mike

do not archive

---

_________________
Mike the kiwi Kolber in England.......

John Jung

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 108
Location: Surprise, AZ, USA

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: Jabiru

Mike, 



Since you have experience with the Jabiru's on a Kolbs, could you answer a question or two? 



How high above the bottom of the engine mount is the prop shaft? 



How much is the installed weight on a Kolb?



do not archive

_________________
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:19 pm Post subject: Jabiru

| John, Yep that is no prob now, I can vouch for that.

|

| Mike



What did Jabiru do to eliminate the moisture problem?



Do they still use the twin distributors? or did they go to a sealed 

system similar to Rotax and other manufacturers?  My Suzuki dirt bike 

ign is sealed, solid state.



john h

MKIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

usmc_diver(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:48 pm Post subject: Jabiru

Link to the jabiru site

http://www.arionaircraft.com/

 you can also check out the yahoo esqual group for the

full details on the 80hp speedster.

                        Lamont Taylor



--- Don G <donghe(at)one-eleven.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <donghe(at)one-eleven.net>

 

 Ray,

 Are there any pics or info on the net on that low

 wing bird?

 

 --------

 Don G

 FireFly#098

 

 http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=23514#23514
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



 browse

 Subscriptions page,

 FAQ,



 Admin.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:14 pm Post subject: Jabiru

| Rotax has a SB almost every other month,  they are both very good, 

serivce

| intervals on the jab are now as good as the 912 as well as no G-Box 

maint.



Rather have that little bit of gear box maintenance, what is it? check 

every 600 or 800 hours?? than no gear box.



| Also with first hand exp I can confirm that Our Jab powered Xtra 

gets off

| the ground quicker than a 912 powered Classic (tested on same day) 

for CAA.



Musta been piss poor pilot technique on the part of the Classic 

driver.  My old Classic used to eat up John W's Jab powered Kolbra on 

acceleration, take off distance, and climb.  Course all that changed 

dramatically when John W upgraded to a 912S.



| I would be confident to stake my aircraft on that, the 912 will 

climb a bit

| better from about 200 feet onwards though and Jab not quite as fast 

at full

| power but I cruise at 80 mph at 2550rpm, 90mph at 2800, and 95 at 

2950.



Bring the Xtra on over.  Would be happy to do a little one on one 

competition with you.



| Maybe you forgot all the problems the 912 had in the first 5-8 yrs, 

theJab

| is well sorted now.



I was flying my 912 back then.  Mine was manufactured later part of 

1993.  I started flying it April 1994.  I remember a few updates 

during that time frame, but don't remember a lot of problems.  I know 

I was doing a lot of flying back then and the old 912 was still 

humming when I swapped it for the 912ULS at 1,135.0 hours.



I remember having some mandatory updates to do on the 912ULS, and she 

is still humping like a new one at 1,100.0 hours.



Both the Jabiru and Rotax 912 series engines are great engines.  I 

believe there is a place for them on Kolbs, but they are not going to 

perform as well as a gear box engine.



john h

MKIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:02 pm Post subject: Jabiru

John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



 || Also as Rick stated, the Jabiru guys machine a gearbox for that

| engine,

|| Rotax will have there hands full...

||

| |

|| Jeremy

Forgot to comment on the above.



Why hasn't Jabiru taken advantage of a gearbox to allow slower turning 

larger diameter props?



Must be some reason they have not come up with a good workable 

solution.  Seems there would be a large market for that type 

equipment.



john h

MKIII




	


I've never flown one; only seen them occasionally. But I can hazard a 

guess on why they don't have a gearbox. Their chosen market seems to be 

the light end of the experimental non-ultralite market; typically faster 

planes being flown by pilots more accustomed to flying traditional a/c 

engines. Note the overall original configuration: direct drive, 

carburetors & dual mags, even though electronic injection/ignition would 

probably have been cheaper & simpler to build.



Believe me, it's very difficult to find a licensed pilot (even one who 

flies experimentals) who will trust a gearbox on an aircraft engine. 

Most won't trust *any* alternative engine. Just mention the idea of 

gearing & you'll get a 3rd hand account of how those Continentals on 

Cessna 175's always failed & how much it costs to repair Twin Bonanza 

engines.



FWIW...

neilsenrmf(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:59 pm Post subject: Jabiru

Charlie



Making a gear reduction drive for a aircraft engine takes some work to make 

it work well but Rotax does and the performance gains (power and thrust) are 

well worth it. The redrive for my VW has plenty of room for improvement but 

it is still worth it. Rotax makes the 912 series for the same light aircraft 

you are referring to. I would venture a guess that in a apples to apples fly 

off a 80HP rotax would blow the doors off a 85HP Jabiru in most any airplane 

even the fast ones.



I'm a licensed pilot and my MKIIIc is a experimental...... Seems like there 

are a few gear boxes in turbo prop airplanes...... Also there are gear boxes 

in P51 Mustangs, Spitfires and allot of the big radial engines used in WWII 

aircraft. These gearbox airplanes only seemed to fall out of the sky when 

they got shot down. Just because Continental didn't make it work well 

doesn't mean that it isn't ever going to work well and not be reliable. You 

also might note that the airplanes I just referred to are a bit faster than 

that 180MPH Jabiru someone was talking about. If gear box driven props 

didn't work better at higher speeds the designers wouldn't have used them.



Again I think the Jabiru is a great engine it just needs a reduction drive 

to compete with the rotax 912 series of engines.



As always my $.02 worth



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIc



---

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:12 am Post subject: Jabiru

In a message dated 3/22/2006 9:03:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  

ceengland(at)bellsouth.net writes:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Forgot to comment on the above.



Why hasn't Jabiru  taken advantage of a gearbox to allow slower turning 

larger diameter  props?



Must be some reason they have not come up with a good  workable 

solution.  Seems there would be a large market for that  type 

equipment.



john  h

MKIII




	


To John/All

 

Don't forget the issue of Prop size vs Ground clearance. Many of these tiny  

little speedsters could not use a larger prop even if the engine could turn  

them. Maybe the Jab is really good in that niche. My old Long Ez turned a 64x79 

 Sensch prop due to ground clearance. The 160 hp Lyc turned about 2500 on 

takeoff  and 2950 at 10,000ft. She would climb in excess of 3,000 fpm at low 

altitudes  and true out 205 mph at 10,000ft. I think that clean airframes can 

tolerate  shorter props that are pitched heavy BUT, just imagine what that plane 

could  have done with a longer prop at lower rpms.

 

Hope to see everyone at SnF 2006

 

Steve B

Firefly #007

Kirk Smith

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 78
Location: SE Michigan

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:32 am Post subject: Jabiru

The majority of successful applications of the Jabiru are in tractor 

configurations in aircraft with higher speeds than  Kolbs.  The slower 

aircraft in pusher configuration that do well with the larger props  may 

run into cooling problems for the Jabiru even if it had a reduction unit. 

My penny.........



Do not

archive

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:41 am Post subject: Jabiru

Hi Rick,



Sorry; I didn't mean to imply that gearboxes are bad, just that 

superstitious pilots who've listened to too many old wives' tales 

(hangar flying) don't understand them & therefore, don't trust them. 

Most don't trust electronics on an engine, either, even though they've 

had to comply with several carb AD's & a couple of mag overhauls while 

never touching anything under the hood of their cars. The problem with 

the old C175 motors was that no one was willing to run them at design 

rpm; they tried to operate them at rpms of the direct drive engines they 

were accustomed to.



My (attempted) point was: Jabiru knows their market & the market drove 

the design.



I think that for anything cruising under 200mph, a fixed pitch large 

diameter prop & small displacement geared engine can make a lot of 

sense. For under 100 mph & STOL operation with very light planes, it 

makes just about the *only* sense.



Charlie



Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:



[quote]



Charlie



Making a gear reduction drive for a aircraft engine takes some work to make 

it work well but Rotax does and the performance gains (power and thrust) are 

well worth it. The redrive for my VW has plenty of room for improvement but 

it is still worth it. Rotax makes the 912 series for the same light aircraft 

you are referring to. I would venture a guess that in a apples to apples fly 

off a 80HP rotax would blow the doors off a 85HP Jabiru in most any airplane 

even the fast ones.



I'm a licensed pilot and my MKIIIc is a experimental...... Seems like there 

are a few gear boxes in turbo prop airplanes...... Also there are gear boxes 

in P51 Mustangs, Spitfires and allot of the big radial engines used in WWII 

aircraft. These gearbox airplanes only seemed to fall out of the sky when 

they got shot down. Just because Continental didn't make it work well 

doesn't mean that it isn't ever going to work well and not be reliable. You 

also might note that the airplanes I just referred to are a bit faster than 

that 180MPH Jabiru someone was talking about. If gear box driven props 

didn't work better at higher speeds the designers wouldn't have used them.



Again I think the Jabiru is a great engine it just needs a reduction drive 

to compete with the rotax 912 series of engines.



As always my $.02 worth



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIc



---

Don G

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Central Illinois

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Jabiru

L.T.

Thanks for the link. I have just spent the last half hour or better studying that Lighting site....WOW. A real good example of the sum of a process where you take any particular engine and design an aircraft for it, instead of building an airframe, and adapting engines to them. These folks obviously have a mind for their market, and are developing just what it will take to compete in that market. 

Unlike so many of the import LSA and EXP competitors, it is available in a Kit. I predict it will be a huge sucess. I still havent figgered out why so many other LSA entries are ignoreing the production numbers of the likes of Vans and Zenith and Sonex kits. The american market for aircraft already exists for kit built aircraft and they are all trying to convince that market (or themselves maybe) that a ready built airplane will gain market share when the buyers show a preference for building themselves. 

Reminds me of a boss I used to have.

(I'm still here, he isn't!!)

Thanks for the link...cant wait to see one a there babies in the flesh.

_________________
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A

kiwimick

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Location: ENGLAND

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:52 pm Post subject: Jabiru

John, I will measure that for you within the next few days.

The installed weight is 64kg.



Mike

---

_________________
Mike the kiwi Kolber in England.......

kiwimick

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Location: ENGLAND

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:09 pm Post subject: Jabiru

Yep John, I am that that crap Classic pilot, I flew them both that day. I am 

quite new to flying only done just under 10,000 hrs in microlights, mainly 

as an instructor and qualified test pilot, still I have only got approx 150 

hrs in a Classic and 500 or so on Jab and 582 Xtra's

You keep referring to the old days of John W and Jab, those days the jab was 

only approx 75 real hp and if I remember right John and all the other USA 

Jab runners only turn a tiny 58" prop, Much more power now and I turn a 

62.5" prop. My Xtra also has VG's, The Classic did not. Come see it , 

believe it.



Mike



---

_________________
Mike the kiwi Kolber in England.......

kiwimick

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Location: ENGLAND

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:17 pm Post subject: Jabiru

All,

You very lucky Americans have a wonderful thing called EXPERIMENTAL, the 

rest of the world is not quite so lucky. Without the lighter simpler Jab 

many microlights around the world would not exist with 4 stroke engines, 

others just choose not to have a 4 stroke engine cruising at 4500-5500 rpm.



Mike

---

_________________
Mike the kiwi Kolber in England.......

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:43 pm Post subject: Jabiru

My Xtra also has VG's, The Classic did not. Come see it ,

| believe it.

|

| Mike

Man...........I would love to if I could find the time and money. 

Even if I got beat.



Thanks for the invite.  



john h



DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

David Lucas

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
Location: Europe. based Amsterdam NL

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:39 am Post subject: Re: Jabiru

There's a new engine being developed in Belgium that, I think, will challenge the Jabiru, Rotax's etc, for market share once in production.

Ground runing is virtually finished and test flying is in progess now. (Wish it had a PSRU though)



Info is here if interested:



http://www.ulpower.com/index.html



David.

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