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NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
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dougsire

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 37

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:18 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

While surfing the NTSB site today I found this letter to the FAA.



http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/2009/A09_30_37.pdf.



Among other recommendations to the FAA...

Therefore, the National Transportation Safety Board recommends that the Federal Aviation Administration:

Prohibit further flight of the Zodiac CH-601XL, both special light sport aircraft and experimental, until such time that the Federal Aviation Administration determines that the CH-601XL has adequate protection from flutter. (A-09-30) (Urgent)



Might want to reconsider that long cross country flight this weekend.   Might have to walk home...



Doug Sire

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:32 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

TOTAL BULLSHIT !

---

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:32 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 01:18:08PM -0700, dougsire wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   While surfing the NTSB site today I found this letter to the FAA.

 

 http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/2009/A09_30_37.pdf.

 

 Among other recommendations to the FAA...

 Therefore, the National Transportation Safety Board recommends that the

 Federal Aviation Administration:

 Prohibit further flight of the Zodiac CH-601XL, both special light sport

 aircraft and experimental, until such time that the Federal Aviation

 Administration determines that the CH-601XL has adequate protection from

 flutter. (A-09-30) (Urgent)


	


Well, head-in-the-sand types: Now what? The NTSB isn't given to crying wolf.



For me, I plan to make damn good and sure my aileron cables are up to

specified tension frequently until more definite information becomes

available. That may not be the final answer, but it's all we've got right

now. The NTSB called that into question as the fix, though they did point

out the problems folks have had with keeping the tension up to spec.



If the FAA chooses to ground the type, I hope they wait until after the

CFI-SP checkride I've got scheduled for Thursday afternoon...

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI      http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

hansriet

Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 93

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

If the FAA chooses to ground the type, I hope they wait until after the

CFI-SP checkride I've got scheduled for Thursday afternoon...

-- 



I hope you get that examiner to step into your plane after this recommendation. I think it's a great thing for all of us. After FAA action and corrective design by whomever, we will have the faith in the airplane restored and our investment secured.

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:30 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

I hate to disagree with Steve, but I have carefully read the NTSB 

document and find it completely credible.  I'm afraid this will be a 

great excuse to put off my first flight which would otherwise have 

occurred within a few weeks.



There are some confusing results of my decision to consider the NTSB 

recommendations as reasonable.  Since there are so many minor 

variants of the XL design and different builders with different 

actual results, it is not at all clear to me how to tell when this 

whole mess has been resolved.  Even if there is one "Blessed" 

solution for AMD built planes, for example, it may remain unclear how 

this solution should be applied to planes with different aileron and 

control configurations.  The same applies to different engine choices 

and weight and balance situations.



I hope the folks at Zenair, Zenith, AMD, and other "Official" sellers 

of the XL plans, kits, and planes release a set of changes 

soon.  These changes will probably include aileron mass balancing 

design and possibly other appropriate design changes to make the XL 

safe according to the NTSB and other authorities.  This could start 

with the changes from the UK being published.  I can't believe there 

is any legitimate for keeping those changes secret any longer.



Paul

XL was getting very close, now undetermined.

At 01:29 PM 4/14/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



TOTAL BULLSHIT !

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:38 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

You right,  I m wrong.

I thought it was just another Matronics Bull Poop by a wannabe.  But I did 

find the Daily News Blog.

Maybe Zenith will retrofit a mass balance for the ailerons.

Thats what happened with my AvidFlyer a few years ago.

Seems the flapperons fluttered til the factory mandated and supplied retro 

kits to eliminate the problem...



Sorry again..



SW

---

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:40 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

The fix on my AvidFlyer was easy.  A shovel type with lead on the end which 

attached to the flapperon.  Easy solution...

---

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:50 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 02:25:14PM -0700, hansriet wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Jay Maynard wrote:

 > If the FAA chooses to ground the type, I hope they wait until after the

 > CFI-SP checkride I've got scheduled for Thursday afternoon...

 I hope you get that examiner to step into your plane after this

 recommendation.


	


I'll find out when I call her tomorrow...



 	  Quote: 	
		   I think it's a great thing for all of us. After FAA action and corrective

 design by whomever, we will have the faith in the airplane restored and

 our investment secured.


	


I agree.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI      http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:34 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

Looks like some new rules  / standards will come out of this.

--->

Work with ASTM International to incorporate additional requirements into the

standards for light sport airplanes that provide for additional

flutter mitigation

strategies. (A-09-33)



--->

Work with ASTM International to develop requirements to be included in the

standards for light sport airplanes that provide for stick-force

characteristics that

will minimize the possibility of pilots inadvertently overcontrolling

the airplane.

(A-09-35)



---->

Work with ASTM International to incorporate additional requirements into the

standards for light sport airplanes that provide for the accurate

determination of

airspeed data and for the adequate presentation of that data in

existing and new

airplane pilot operating handbooks and on airspeed indicators. (A-09-37)

On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 4:18 PM, dougsire <dsire(at)imt.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 While surfing the NTSB site today I found this letter to the FAA.



 http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/2009/A09_30_37.pdf.



 Among other recommendations to the FAA...

 Therefore, the National Transportation Safety Board recommends that the Federal Aviation Administration:

 Prohibit further flight of the Zodiac CH-601XL, both special light sport aircraft and experimental, until such time that the Federal Aviation Administration determines that the CH-601XL has adequate protection from flutter. (A-09-30) (Urgent)



 Might want to reconsider that long cross country flight this weekend.   Might have to walk home...



 Doug Sire





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 39161#239161

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:34 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 02:58:25PM -0700, Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The NTSB did the right thing.    AMD and Zenith will have to be more

 pro-active.  I just hope the FAA makes it clear which XLs they are

 grounding, if they do ground the airframe. (Should 650s be included?)


	


If the problem is aileron flutter, I don't see how it'd be reasonable for

them to ground less than all Zodiacs that don't have balanced ailerons. That

would include 650s, too.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Maybe they will only ground the S-LSAs and put speed limits on the

 experimental XLs and XL winged craft.


	


This wouldn't make a lot of sense: if the situation warrants grounding, then

it would warrant grounding them all.



 	  Quote: 	
		   It would be nice if they would allow those still in Phase 1 to remain

 flying within 5nm of their home airport as a test bed for their proposed

 modifications.


	


They could allow this by means of special flight permits.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Paul is correct--a fix for one might not fix them all.  My airframe is

 highly modified, but I would still welcome a review of the AMD S-LSAs.


	


How modified is it? Are your ailerons balanced?

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI      http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

DaveG601XL

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 351
Location: Cincinnati, Oh

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

Well the timing of this puts one heck of a bind on anybody's plans to fly to Sun-N-Fun next week in a 601XL.  Myself in particular.  I have confidence in my airplane making the trip, but I cannot afford to get grounded in Florida.  I too, hope that this motivates action for whatever the proposed modifications.  I do not want to spend all summer being grounded!!

_________________
David Gallagher
Cincinnati, OH area

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:29 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

The FAA may be able to ground the S-LSAs, but there would be a real  

problem grounding the E-ABs. There is no type certificate to take  

action against. Each airplane is considered one of a kind. Many of the  

E-ABs out there don't even have Zenith or Zodiac on the airworthiness  

certificate. A person could build one and call it a Jones Gee-Whizz  

Special on the certificate, then how could the FAA track it down? I  

don't think there has been a single time in the history of the E-AB  

category that the FAA has ever even considered grounding an  

experimental design.



Another thing is that the FAA doesn't have to pay any attention to  

recommendations from the NTSB, and they often don't.



F**k 'em, if I get the chance to fly mine to Sun'N'Fun this year, I  

will. I'm not worried in the least about getting grounded by this BS.  

I'm getting pretty tired of the government trying to protect me from  

me. That's not the freaking job I'm paying them to do.



On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:37 PM, DaveG601XL wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 >



 Well the timing of this puts one heck of a bind on anybody's plans  

 to fly to Sun-N-Fun next week in a 601XL.  Myself in particular.  I  

 have confidence in my airplane making the trip, but I cannot afford  

 to get grounded in Florida.  I too, hope that this motivates action  

 for whatever the proposed modifications.  I do not want to spend all  

 summer being grounded!!



 --------

 David Gallagher

 601 XL/Jabiru 3300

 First flight 7/24/08

 70 hours and climbing!


	


-- 

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:48 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

I could not find the NTSB site. Anyone else having a problem  locating the 

side?  Jerry of GA 

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 07:46:38PM -0400, Jeyoung65(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I could not find the NTSB site. Anyone else having a problem  locating the 

 side?  Jerry of GA 


	


The link in the message you replied to had an extra period on the end. Try

the press release at http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2009/090414a.html .

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI      http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:03 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

I got it that time, THANKS Jerry of GA DO NOT  ARCHIVE

  

  In a message dated 4/14/2009 6:53:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  jmaynard(at)conmicro.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith-List message posted by: Jay Maynard    <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com>



On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 07:46:38PM -0400,    Jeyoung65(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I could not find the NTSB site. Anyone else    having a problem  locating the 

 side?  Jerry of GA    


	


The link in the message you replied to had an extra period on the end.    Try

the press release at http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2009/090414a.html    .

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI         http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com          http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                           (Yes, that's    me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC  ================================================ the  ties  Day  ================================================               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  ================================================             - List Contribution Web Site  sp;                             ===================================================



	


 Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar!

  [quote][b]

grs-pms(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:03 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

The New York Times has managed  to find it, as has Aero-News Network.

  

  We'd better hope for a quick,  quiet resolution of the problem before a bunch of lawyers and "crusading  journalists" pile on and put Zenith out of business, or  even get homebuilts grounded by act of congress.  Remember the  damage the networks did to the ultralight industry some years back.

  

 George

  

 Do not archive

 [quote]   ---

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:04 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

"FAA, NTSB feud over safety recommendations



The National Transportation Safety Board complains that the Federal Aviation

Administration doesn't act quickly enough, while the FAA says the safety

board is free to offer recommendations regardless of whether they are

practicable, economical or technologically possible."



http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20090219/FREE/902199993



-- Craig

JohnDRead(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:08 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

Absolutely. One of the biggest problems I "see" is that builders tend to  make modifications and adjustments that are not on the Zenith plans. While a  working stiff I used to insist that suppliers to the various companies I work  for produced parts to the following spec - Mil TPF41C. Translation Make It Like  The Flaming Print For Once. So if your plane is fluttering I would suggest that  the tensions the cables to the Zenith values.

  

 John  Read

CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300



Phone: 303-648-3261

Fax:  303-648-3262

Cell: 719-494-4567   

  In a message dated 4/14/2009 5:30:08 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,  bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin    <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net>



The FAA may be able to ground the    S-LSAs, but there would be a real  

problem grounding the E-ABs. There    is no type certificate to take  

action against. Each airplane is    considered one of a kind. Many of the  

E-ABs out there don't even    have Zenith or Zodiac on the airworthiness  

certificate. A person    could build one and call it a Jones Gee-Whizz  

Special on the    certificate, then how could the FAA track it down? I  

don't think    there has been a single time in the history of the E-AB  

category    that the FAA has ever even considered grounding an  

experimental    design.



Another thing is that the FAA doesn't have to pay any attention    to  

recommendations from the NTSB, and they often don't.



F**k    'em, if I get the chance to fly mine to Sun'N'Fun this year, I  

will.    I'm not worried in the least about getting grounded by this BS.  

I'm    getting pretty tired of the government trying to protect me from  

me.    That's not the freaking job I'm paying them to do.



On Apr 14, 2009, at    6:37 PM, DaveG601XL wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Zenith-List message posted by:    "DaveG601XL" <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com 

 >



 Well    the timing of this puts one heck of a bind on anybody's plans  

    to fly to Sun-N-Fun next week in a 601XL.  Myself in particular.     I  

 have confidence in my airplane making the trip, but I cannot    afford  

 to get grounded in Florida.  I too, hope that this    motivates action  

 for whatever the proposed modifications.     I do not want to spend all  

 summer being    grounded!!



 --------

 David Gallagher

 601    XL/Jabiru 3300

 First flight 7/24/08

 70 hours and    climbing!


	


-- 

do not  ================================================[b]

	




 Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar!

  [quote][b]

JohnDRead(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:08 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

Absolutely. One of the biggest problems I "see" is that builders tend to  make modifications and adjustments that are not on the Zenith plans. While a  working stiff I used to insist that suppliers to the various companies I work  for produced parts to the following spec - Mil TPF41C. Translation Make It Like  The Flaming Print For Once. So if your plane is fluttering I would suggest  that you tension the cables to the Zenith values.

  

 John  Read

CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300



Phone: 303-648-3261

Fax:  303-648-3262

Cell: 719-494-4567   

  In a message dated 4/14/2009 5:30:08 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,  bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin    <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net>



The FAA may be able to ground the    S-LSAs, but there would be a real  

problem grounding the E-ABs. There    is no type certificate to take  

action against. Each airplane is    considered one of a kind. Many of the  

E-ABs out there don't even    have Zenith or Zodiac on the airworthiness  

certificate. A person    could build one and call it a Jones Gee-Whizz  

Special on the    certificate, then how could the FAA track it down? I  

don't think    there has been a single time in the history of the E-AB  

category    that the FAA has ever even considered grounding an  

experimental    design.



Another thing is that the FAA doesn't have to pay any attention    to  

recommendations from the NTSB, and they often don't.



F**k    'em, if I get the chance to fly mine to Sun'N'Fun this year, I  

will.    I'm not worried in the least about getting grounded by this BS.  

I'm    getting pretty tired of the government trying to protect me from  

me.    That's not the freaking job I'm paying them to do.



On Apr 14, 2009, at    6:37 PM, DaveG601XL wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Zenith-List message posted by:    "DaveG601XL" <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com 

 >



 Well    the timing of this puts one heck of a bind on anybody's plans  

    to fly to Sun-N-Fun next week in a 601XL.  Myself in particular.     I  

 have confidence in my airplane making the trip, but I cannot    afford  

 to get grounded in Florida.  I too, hope that this    motivates action  

 for whatever the proposed modifications.     I do not want to spend all  

 summer being    grounded!!



 --------

 David Gallagher

 601    XL/Jabiru 3300

 First flight 7/24/08

 70 hours and    climbing!


	


-- 

do not  ================================================[b]

	




 Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar!

  [quote][b]

hansriet

Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 93

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

[quote="JohnDRead(at)aol.com"]So if your plane is fluttering I would suggest that  the tensions the cables to the Zenith values.

  

John,



As you can read in the NTSB report, there's not a value that Zenith (and the various other manufacturers) agree on themselves. The values that are giving have no roots in testing. If a builder experienced flutter, he or she is lucky to live to tell it.



Won't you agree that an aileron balance that prevents flutter in all cases and a Bob weight to even the stick pressures at high G-forces will make for a safer plane?

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