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Boilermaker2000

Joined: 14 Apr 2009
Posts: 11
Location: West Lafayette, IN

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:52 pm Post subject: Brake Bleeder

I'm replacing the brake lines on my model IV.  I did a search on the forum and some mentioned using an oil can to pump the fluid in.  Can someone explain to me how to do that and what kind of "oil can" your talking about?  I assume it's cheaper than the $80 bleeders from ATS or ACS.



Or, one of the bleeders in the ACS catalog looks like a bottle with a couple of tubes.  It says you hook it up, walk away, and it works in 15 minutes.  Seems like maybe you would hook the bottom tube up to the caliper and the top one to the master cylinder.  Hang the bottle up high, and gravity would push the 5606 through the system and air back into the bottle.  Anyone ever used one of these.  Seems like it would be pretty easy to make your own.

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:23 pm Post subject: Brake Bleeder

Hi Ryan,



I rebuilt my brake cylinders recently and needed to refill and bleed

afterwards. I got a cheap "oil can" at Advanced Auto - it's really more of

an oil pump, with a trigger that pushes the oil through a bendable metal

tube when you pump it. Connect a piece of brake line from the pump tube to

the caliper, and another from the fill hole in the brake reservoir (at the

top of the system) to an empty can, and pump until all the bubbles are gone.

Cheap, easy, and it works.



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

Cwehner

Joined: 15 Jan 2009
Posts: 17
Location: Tulsa, OK

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Bleeder

The oil can is a good idea. Heres what I did, seemed to work pretty good and I already had the materials laying around. I had a big syringe that I had gotten from a farmers co-op or southern agriculture. hooked some tubing to it and done. I think All it took was one syringe full. heres a pic, doubt I could sell (it's not pretty) it but it works well.

IMG_4379a.jpg

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Chris Wehner
Tulsa, Oklahoma
Kitfox IV, 912, Final push for completion!

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:20 am Post subject: Re: Brake Bleeder

http://www.cfisher.com/aeroshell.html



Make sure you use mil spec fluid as well



bleed from bottom up , till air gone into master cylinder.

Have a rag on floor to catch any that over fills .



Good Luck.



 	  Boilermaker2000 wrote: 	
		  I'm replacing the brake lines on my model IV.  I did a search on the forum and some mentioned using an oil can to pump the fluid in.  Can someone explain to me how to do that and what kind of "oil can" your talking about?  I assume it's cheaper than the $80 bleeders from ATS or ACS.



Or, one of the bleeders in the ACS catalog looks like a bottle with a couple of tubes.  It says you hook it up, walk away, and it works in 15 minutes.  Seems like maybe you would hook the bottom tube up to the caliper and the top one to the master cylinder.  Hang the bottle up high, and gravity would push the 5606 through the system and air back into the bottle.  Anyone ever used one of these.  Seems like it would be pretty easy to make your own.

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Boilermaker2000

Joined: 14 Apr 2009
Posts: 11
Location: West Lafayette, IN

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:45 am Post subject: Re: Brake Bleeder

That sounds easy enough.  I like the syringe idea, since it seems to be the easiest to avoid bubbles and a sore hand.  As long as I can find one large enough.  About how much hydraulic oil should I need for 3/16" OD Nylaflo tubing on the extended bush gear?



Thanks Dave for the heads up on the brake fluid.  I already saw on the other posts what can happen if you don't use 5606.  I'll probably stop by an FBO and buy whatever they have in stock, but if I have to order from ACS, does it matter 5606G or 5606H? The "H", which I assume is a later and greater spec, is actually cheaper.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:04 am Post subject: Re: Brake Bleeder

 	  Quote: 	
		  hanks Dave for the heads up on the brake fluid. I already saw on the other posts what can happen if you don't use 5606. I'll probably stop by an FBO and buy whatever they have in stock, but if I have to order from ACS, does it matter 5606G or 5606H? The "H", which I assume is a later and greater spec, is actually cheaper 	




I think the H is later than the G and should be fine.



I not sure about the syringe idea but it if works then  great. You wold have to get some hose and clamp it on  to  it . 

   You can buy a cheap oil can with a hose on it and cut the metal end off and slide it right on the Bleeder and pump it ........  you should not get any air  this way.

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:25 am Post subject: Re: Brake Bleeder

3/16 ID fuel line from the snowmobile or motorcycle shop fits the bleeder fitting on the calipers good and tight.



 	  Quote: 	
		  About how much hydraulic oil should I need for 3/16" OD Nylaflo tubing on the extended bush gear? 	




Not very much.  I'm guessing less than 8 ounces for the entire system.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Brake Bleeder

So would one not want to use a vacuum bleed system like the one I have for cars and motorcycles?

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:28 am Post subject: Re: Brake Bleeder

 	  WurlyBird wrote: 	
		  So would one not want to use a vacuum bleed system like the one I have for cars and motorcycles? 	




Easier to pump from bleeder up. Takes a minute per wheel. 

Plus how you gonna bleed air out of caliper if bleeder is at bottom ?

Dave

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Bleeder

The bleeder for all brake systems is on the bottom.  A vacuum system simply hooks to the bleeder and creates a vacuum and pulls all the fluid AND AIR out through the bottom.  So all you have to do is create a vacuum and then make sure you keep the reservoir full and voila, nice fresh fluid, no bubbles.

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Bleeder

 	  WurlyBird wrote: 	
		  The bleeder for all brake systems is on the bottom.  A vacuum system simply hooks to the bleeder and creates a vacuum and pulls all the fluid AND AIR out through the bottom.  So all you have to do is create a vacuum and then make sure you keep the reservoir full and voila, nice fresh fluid, no bubbles. 	




Well,  air rises and there is no way in hell that will work.  I have been a licensed Mechanic for over 30 years.  Autos that you are thinking of the bleeders are on the top.  Brake system totally different on our Kitfox's . There are no proportioning valves or  ABS brakes .   LOL  



Now if you invert your calipers then maybe it might work. But why  re-invent the wheel when it ain't busted ? 

In the time it took my to write this post , you could have both sides bleed the proper way , from the bottom up.

rawheels

Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 89
Location: Westfield, IN

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Bleeder

 	  dave wrote: 	
		  air rises and there is no way in hell that will work. 	




WurlyBird, 



I've used those, and they do work, but the other way is a lot easier and reliably successful in my opinion.  Most EAA clubs, FBO's, or neighbor hangars will probably have some sort of pressure system you could borrow.  However, you CAN try whatever you want.  That is what this is all about.



There are two possible issues with the vacuum I can think of:  



First, not all master cylinders will allow positive pressure in that direction. All will allow fluid to move freely at low pressure, and somewhat higher pressure in the upward direction (so the brakes don't lock up if the fluid expands rapidly).  Guess you'd just have to try it out to know.



Second, it might be harder than you think to keep the reservoir filled.  On a car, motorcycle, or even a Piper aircraft there is pretty nice access to the reservoir.  So keeping it full is pretty easy.  When all you have is a small 10-24 screw hole like on these or a Cessna, it is nearly impossible to monitor the fluid level easily.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:49 pm Post subject: Brake Bleeder

So as not to display the arrogance of another responder, James, I'll  

just say that all the bleeders I've dealt with over the years have  

been automotive, and all have been on the top of the individual wheel  

cylinders, because air rises. When the brake pedal is depressed, the  

fluid and any air contained therein will travel out to the wheel  

cylinders, where the air will rise to the top where it can be bled  

off. Other brake systems may use a different scenario, Kitfox  

included, but it is safe to say that the bleeder is not on the bottom  

"for all brake systems."



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying

do not archive



On Apr 18, 2009, at 8:39 PM, WurlyBird wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil>



 The bleeder for all brake systems is on the bottom.  A vacuum  

 system simply hooks to the bleeder and creates a vacuum and pulls  

 all the fluid AND AIR out through the bottom.  So all you have to  

 do is create a vacuum and then make sure you keep the reservoir  

 full and voila, nice fresh fluid, no bubbles.



 --------

 James

 Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop

 Soloed the Kitfox yesterday!!!





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 39987#239987

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 3:59 am Post subject: Re: Brake Bleeder

Oh how lovely,a personal attack on a poster?  Or is that a arrogant opinion?   LOL 





 	  Lynn Matteson wrote: 	
		  So as not to display the arrogance of another responder, James, I'll  

just say that all the bleeders I've dealt with over the years have  

been automotive, and all have been on the top of the individual wheel  

cylinders, because air rises. When the brake pedal is depressed, the  

fluid and any air contained therein will travel out to the wheel  

cylinders, where the air will rise to the top where it can be bled  

off. Other brake systems may use a different scenario, Kitfox  

included, but it is safe to say that the bleeder is not on the bottom  

"for all brake systems."



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying

do not archive



On Apr 18, 2009, at 8:39 PM, WurlyBird wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <james>



 The bleeder for all brake systems is on the bottom.  A vacuum  

 system simply hooks to the bleeder and creates a vacuum and pulls  

 all the fluid AND AIR out through the bottom.  So all you have to  

 do is create a vacuum and then make sure you keep the reservoir  

 full and voila, nice fresh fluid, no bubbles.



 --------

 James

 Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop

 Soloed the Kitfox yesterday!!!





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 39987#239987

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 4:21 am Post subject: Brake Bleeder

Say one other thing to this brake bleeder business. You can buy a "visible" brake fluid reservoir. This makes it real easy to watch the "back bleeding "action as you fill your brake lines. You just follow the bubbles thru your visible line up into the visible reservoir into your visible airplane. No over filling mess! 

  I did this on my aircraft and it sure makes it nice. You just take a peek at the reservoir and you know how much fluid you have. No more dipping tooth picks,etc into the reservoir to measure the quantity.

                                                            Dick Maddux

                                                            Pensacola,Fl

 A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!

  [quote][b]

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:02 am Post subject: Brake Bleeder

On Sat, April 18, 2009 8:48 pm, Lynn Matteson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 So as not to display the arrogance of another responder,


	


Sometimes people type to their computers as if the damned thing were a cash machine

that just told you it grabbed $3 service charge for giving you that $60 you needed to

renew your Driver's License.



People have to chill out to enjoy their hangar talk with a cup of coffee, or 'shine

for some of you hard core characters. )



 	  Quote: 	
		   James, I'll

 just say that all the bleeders I've dealt with over the years have

 been automotive, and all have been on the top of the individual wheel

 cylinders, because air rises.


	


Very true, well said Lynn. I must point out that an air bubble the size of the ID of

the brake line will rise so slowly that it can easily be pushed along with the brake

fluid, either up or down, but once it gets to a wide spot such as a wheel cylinder

then it will rise to the top. So, there has to be a way to bleed air at the top of a

wide spot.



 	  Quote: 	
		   When the brake pedal is depressed, the

 fluid and any air contained therein will travel out to the wheel

 cylinders, where the air will rise to the top where it can be bled

 off. Other brake systems may use a different scenario, Kitfox

 included, but it is safe to say that the bleeder is not on the bottom

 "for all brake systems."


	


How would Johnny have said it to Ed? Well said, 5606 breath!



OK, I have Matco calipers and they can be mounted on the gear leg at the axle in 4

possible positions - your choice at 45° 135° 225° 315°. I chose top and to the rear. I

considered brake line position, ground clearance and brake line location. I also

discovered the calipers were left-right swappable so I could put the brake line at the

top and the bleeder valve at the bottom or vice versa. So, you can decide which way

you're going to bleed - bottom fill pumping bleeder at the bottom, top fill using

master cylinder for a pump, then bleeder at the top. Subsequently, it was pointed out

by my old time tail wheel A&P master craftsman friend that if you have the bleeder at

the bottom and still want to top fill using the master cylinder, one guy pumps the

master cylinder and watches the reservoir while the other guy uses the brake line

fitting at the top of the wheel cylinder as a bleeder.



Now, just as a reminder, I have a Merlin GT not a KF but I use the Matco brakes which

I think some Kitfoxen use, right? Not sure if the Kitfox allows for the caliper

mounting alternatives though. I mounted mine up and to the rear thinking this would be

the best place to have them so rocks wouldn't hit the brake lines as much and I put

the bleeders at the bottom. I have a bleeder pump that will draw from the master

cylinder or a clean container and pump fluid into the bleeder. If I draw from the

master cylinder I can keep it going until I am really really sure there is no air

inside. But if I want to bleed in the conventional manner, I can crack the brake line

fitting at the top of the wheel cylinder while my wife pushes down the break pedal and

holds it down while I tighten the fitting. I use my wife for this because my dog is

much better suited for chasing rabbits.

-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell



There is perhaps in every thing of any consequence, secret history, which

it would be amusing to know, could we have it authentically communicated.

-- James Boswell



Question: Is it better to abide by the rules until they're changed or

help speed the change by breaking them?



The better the state is established, the fainter is humanity.

To make the individual uncomfortable, that is my task.

-- Nietzsche



"Never underestimate the power of a small tactical nuclear weapon."

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:56 am Post subject: Brake Bleeder

I, like most of us have been following this thread with a little interest to see what direction it will take.  While it is true that you can do basically whatever you want with an amateur built plane there are still recognized procedures for doing specific tasks.  

   

This is the one described in the Jeppsen A&P Technician Airframe  Textbook.  After all the years they have been training A&Ps I guess they have some idea what they are talking about..  Please pardon any typos you find.  

   

PP10-29, 10-30   

D. Brake inspection and service.  

1. On the Aircraft. Sub b. Check for air in the system.  

   

Spongy brake action is nearly always an indication of air in the system ( hydraulic system), and if any air is found it must be removed by bleeding before proper braking action is restored.  

   

There are two general methods of bleeding brakes, and while basic procedures for each will be discussed, the airframe manufacturers service information must be followed in detail.  

   

Note:  As manufacturers of our planes we set those standards.  

   

1.  Master Cylinder Brakes  

   

When the brake master cylinder is fully released, there is a direct passage from the brake cylinder through the compensator port to the reservoir.  This prevents any pressure build up from heat causing the brakes to drag.  To bleed this type of brake, remove the screw from the bleeder valve and connect the brake bleeding pressure pot ( Pump with brake fluid in it.) to the brake with a flexible hose.  Before tightening the line on the bleeder hose be sure to purge all of the air from it.  

   

CAUTION: Be sure the pressure pot is filled with the proper type of hydraulic fluid, as improper fluid can cause serious damage to the system.  For most of us that will be 5606.  

   

Attach a flexible hose to the brake reservoir vent and place the end of the hose in a clean container, As shown in Fig. 10-58. Open the bleeder valve with pressure applied from the pot to force fluid up through the brake, the master cylinder and the reservoir into the container.  Allow the flow to continue until there are no more bubbles.  Close the bleeder valve and the valve on the bleeder pot and remove the line from the brake.  Replace the bleeder screw and remove the line form the reservoir.  Check to be sure there is the proper amount of fluid in the reservoir.  

   

This type of brake may also be bled by forcing trapped air out of the system at the wheel cylinder, See fig 10-59.  Slip one end of a section of flexible tubing over the bleeder valve on the brake and immerse the other end of the tubing in a container of clean hydraulic fluid.  Check to be sure the reservoir is full of fluid, and depress the master cylinder.  Hold the piston down and crack the bleeder valve on the wheel (a two man job to be sure) allow the piston in the master cylinder to go all the way down, and then close the bleeder valve before you release the master cylinder.  Continue this procedure, being sure to keep the reservoir full until fluid flows from the brake with no bubbles.  

   

[img]cid:image003.jpg(at)01C9C0FA.9EE67470[/img]  

   

So it appears both methods are acceptable.  I notice in both these diagrams the bleeder appears to be below the brake line on the slave cylinders.  

   

Noel  

   

   

--

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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:26 am Post subject: Brake Bleeder

I just came back from a "service call" on a Waiex under construction.  

The guy was using an air-pressure brake bleeder that had been rigged  

up for aircraft use, that is, for pressurizing from the bottom- 

mounted bleeder screw. He had been at the bleeding job for over a  

week, off and on. I didn't like the idea of the pressurized container  

he was using, so I took along the pumper-style oil can that I used on  

my Kitfox 3 years ago. We had the job done in 15 minutes or less with  

the simplest of tools, whereas the "big city" device had him...and me  

earlier...pulling out his hair.

My first encounter with "bottom bleeders" was with my Kitfox (dual  

brake controls) and I thought someone had screwed up when they  

mounted the wheel cylinders. Then I tried a novel approach....I read  

the directions....what a concept!! Following the directions made the  

job go easy.

I also have Matco wheel cylinders, but Cleveland masters, Paul.  

Cracking a brake line is an old trick I learned to bleed air from an  

automotive master cylinder. It saves having to pump the air in a new  

master cylinder all the way down the lines to the wheel cylinders.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 632.8 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying

On Apr 19, 2009, at 10:59 AM, Paul Franz - Merlin GT wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <paul(at)eucleides.com>

 On Sat, April 18, 2009 8:48 pm, Lynn Matteson wrote:

> 

>

> So as not to display the arrogance of another responder,

 Sometimes people type to their computers as if the damned thing  

 were a cash machine

 that just told you it grabbed $3 service charge for giving you that  

 $60 you needed to

 renew your Driver's License.

 People have to chill out to enjoy their hangar talk with a cup of  

 coffee, or 'shine

 for some of you hard core characters. )

> James, I'll

> just say that all the bleeders I've dealt with over the years have

> been automotive, and all have been on the top of the individual wheel

> cylinders, because air rises.

 Very true, well said Lynn. I must point out that an air bubble the  

 size of the ID of

 the brake line will rise so slowly that it can easily be pushed  

 along with the brake

 fluid, either up or down, but once it gets to a wide spot such as a  

 wheel cylinder

 then it will rise to the top. So, there has to be a way to bleed  

 air at the top of a

 wide spot.

> When the brake pedal is depressed, the

> fluid and any air contained therein will travel out to the wheel

> cylinders, where the air will rise to the top where it can be bled

> off. Other brake systems may use a different scenario, Kitfox

> included, but it is safe to say that the bleeder is not on the bottom

> "for all brake systems."

 How would Johnny have said it to Ed? Well said, 5606 breath!

 OK, I have Matco calipers and they can be mounted on the gear leg  

 at the axle in 4

 possible positions - your choice at 45° 135° 225° 315°. I chose top  

 and to the rear. I

 considered brake line position, ground clearance and brake line  

 location. I also

 discovered the calipers were left-right swappable so I could put  

 the brake line at the

 top and the bleeder valve at the bottom or vice versa. So, you can  

 decide which way

 you're going to bleed - bottom fill pumping bleeder at the bottom,  

 top fill using

 master cylinder for a pump, then bleeder at the top. Subsequently,  

 it was pointed out

 by my old time tail wheel A&P master craftsman friend that if you  

 have the bleeder at

 the bottom and still want to top fill using the master cylinder,  

 one guy pumps the

 master cylinder and watches the reservoir while the other guy uses  

 the brake line

 fitting at the top of the wheel cylinder as a bleeder.

 Now, just as a reminder, I have a Merlin GT not a KF but I use the  

 Matco brakes which

 I think some Kitfoxen use, right? Not sure if the Kitfox allows for  

 the caliper

 mounting alternatives though. I mounted mine up and to the rear  

 thinking this would be

 the best place to have them so rocks wouldn't hit the brake lines  

 as much and I put

 the bleeders at the bottom. I have a bleeder pump that will draw  

 from the master

 cylinder or a clean container and pump fluid into the bleeder. If I  

 draw from the

 master cylinder I can keep it going until I am really really sure  

 there is no air

 inside. But if I want to bleed in the conventional manner, I can  

 crack the brake line

 fitting at the top of the wheel cylinder while my wife pushes down  

 the break pedal and

 holds it down while I tighten the fitting. I use my wife for this  

 because my dog is

 much better suited for chasing rabbits.

 -- 

 Paul A. Franz

 Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

 Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

 Bellevue WA

 425.241.1618 Cell

 There is perhaps in every thing of any consequence, secret history,  

 which

 it would be amusing to know, could we have it authentically  

 communicated.

 -- James Boswell

 Question: Is it better to abide by the rules until they're changed or

 help speed the change by breaking them?

 The better the state is established, the fainter is humanity.

 To make the individual uncomfortable, that is my task.

 -- Nietzsche

 "Never underestimate the power of a small tactical nuclear weapon."

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:29 am Post subject: Brake Bleeder

Paul C Do you mean your dog is better at chasing rabbits than he is at pushing the brake pedal or better at chasing rabbits than your wife? ( Couldn't resist that one)

 Pat Reilly

 Model 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Sun C 19 Apr 2009 07:59:28 -0700

 Subject: Re: Brake Bleeder

 From: paul(at)eucleides.com

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" <paul(at)eucleides.com>

 On Sat C April 18 C 2009 8:48 pm C Lynn Matteson wrote:

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 >

 > So as not to display the arrogance of another responder C

 Sometimes people type to their computers as if the damned thing were a cash machine

 that just told you it grabbed $3 service charge for giving you that $60 you needed to

 renew your Driver's License.

 People have to chill out to enjoy their hangar talk with a cup of coffee C or 'shine

 for some of you hard core characters. )

 > James C I'll

 > just say that all the bleeders I've dealt with over the years have

 > been automotive C and all have been on the top of the individual wheel

 > cylinders C because air rises.

 Very true C well said Lynn. I must point out that an air bubble the size of the ID of

 the brake line will rise so slowly that it can easily be pushed along with the brake

 fluid C either up or down C but once it gets to a wide spot such as a wheel cylinder

 then it will rise to the top. So C there has to be a way to bleed air at the top of a

 wide spot.

 > When the brake pedal is depressed C the

 > fluid and any air contained therein will travel out to the wheel

 > cylinders C where the air will rise to the top where it can be bled

 > off. Other brake systems may use a different scenario C Kitfox

 > included C but it is safe to say that the bleeder is not on the bottom

 > "for all brake systems."

 How would Johnny have said it to Ed? Well said C 5606 breath!

 OK C I have Matco calipers and they can be mounted on the gear leg at the axle in 4

 possible positions - your choice at 45° 135° 225° 315°. I chose top and to the rear. I

 considered brake line position C ground clearance and brake line location. I also

 discovered the calipers were left-right swappable so I could put the brake line at the

 top and the bleeder valve at the bottom or vice versa. So C you can decide which way

 you're going to bleed - bottom fill pumping bleeder at the bottom C top fill using

 master cylinder for a pump C then bleeder at the top. Subsequently C it was pointed out

 by my old time tail wheel A&P master craftsman friend that if you have the bleeder at

 the bottom and still want to top fill using the master cylinder C one guy pumps the

 master cylinder and watches the reservoir while the other guy uses the brake line

 fitting at the top of the wheel cylinder as a bleeder.

 Now C just as a reminder C I have a Merlin GT not a KF but I use the Matco brakes which

 I think some Kitfoxen use C right? Not sure if the Kitfox allows for the caliper

 mounting alternatives though. I mounted mine up and to the rear thinking this would be

 the best place to have them so rocks wouldn't hit the brake lines as much and I put

 the bleeders at the bottom. I have a bleeder pump that will draw from the master

 cylinder or a clean container and pump fluid into the bleeder. If I draw from the

 master cylinder I can keep it going until I am really really sure there is no air

 inside. But if I want to bleed in the conventional manner C I can crack the brake line

 fitting at the top of the wheel cylinder while my wife pushes down the break pedal and

 holds it down while I tighten the fitting. I use my wife for this because my dog is

 much better suited for chasing rabbits.

 -- 

 Paul A. Franz

 Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

 Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

 Bellevue WA

 425.241.1618 Cell

 There is perhaps in every thing of any consequence C secret history C which

 it would be amusing to know C could we have it authentically communicated.

 -- James Boswell

 Question: Is it better to abide by the rules until they're changed or

 help speed the change by breaking them?

 The better the state is established C the fainter is humanity.

 To make the individual uncomfortable C that is my task.

 -- Nietzsche

 "Never underestimate the po Archive Search & Download C 7-Day Browse C Chat C FAQ C

&gt===

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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:53 am Post subject: Brake Bleeder

Dick C Alot of us have one piece reservoir master cylinders on the pedal. I bought a remote reservoir ( fluid visable ) C but can't use it with the one piece master cylinders with reservoirs. Did you have a remote reservoir that you couldn't see the fluid in originally? Also C you reported Lowell's brush gear was 4# lighter than the original stock. I wondered how that could be at the time. I see Lowell reports his gear is  9 pounds heavier than stock C which looking at the gear would make more sense. Did I misread your report on lowell's bush gear? 

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL 

  From: Catz631(at)aol.com

Date: Sun C 19 Apr 2009 08:20:39 -0400

Subject: Re: Brake Bleeder

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com



 Say one other thing to this brake bleeder business. You can buy a "visible" brake fluid reservoir. This makes it real easy to watch the "back bleeding "action as you fill your brake lines. You just follow the bubbles thru your visible line up into the visible reservoir into your visible airplane. No over filling mess! 

  I did this on my aircraft and it sure makes it nice. You just take a peek at the reservoir and you know how much fluid you have. No more dipping tooth picks Cetc into the reservoir to measure the quantity.

                                                            Dick Maddux

                                                            Pensacola CFl



  A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! 

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