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Just my $.02

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jonbateman(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:16 pm Post subject: Just my $.02

Iv'e been quietly reading and building from plans my 601XL going on 4 years. Just like everyone else that owns and or  dreams of flying their XL I believed that this plane and design was for me. I didn't think for a minute that it was going to be perfect in ever aspect. I doubt that man has or will ever build a flying machine that sooner or later doesn't have a AD attached to it. The NTSB and everyone that is or will be envolved in the matter will come up with a plan to make our planes even better and safer than they were when we said I DO. Whatever the fix is I plan on using it to enhance my 601XL. 

     If it sounds as if I am plugging for Zenith well thats your $.02 

   Jon B. still cutting and forming 

 

  From: JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com

Date: Wed C 15 Apr 2009 23:48:59 -0400

Subject: Re: First real result of the NTSB report

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com



 man C you got to learn to live with some disappointment.

  

  In a message dated 4/15/2009 11:13:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time C jmaynard(at)conmicro.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com>



On Wed C Apr 15 C 2009 at 07:39:41PM -0700 C Paul Mulwitz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I wonder if your thinking is a bit clouded on this whole issue.  Do you 

 need your plane to do the check ride you are prepared for?  Perhaps there 

 is another plane you can use to show your proficiency.  I understand you 

 have been preparing for using your own plane C but I suspect a rental would 

 work too.  It might require you spend a little time practicing with another 

 plane C and it might require a trip to a location where an appropriate plane 

 is available.  Both of those costs seem relatively small to me.  (But what 

 do I know?)


	


I'm planning to start with my local FSDO and see if there's another examiner

I can try. When I set up this checkride C there was only the one (and the

Minneapolis FSDO doesn't even do CFI-SP checkrides); since then C one

inspector mentioned another C but the DPE herself told me that he wasn't a

CFI examiner. I'll get the real story tomorrow.



The big problem I've got is that I live 120 miles from the closest place

that rents LSAs. I'd also have to spend 5 hours in one just to get signed

off (insurance requirements) C and also to get my flying in whichever one up

to CFI standards. That's not going to be something I can commute to easily C

so it'll take travel and hotel expenses C on top of the rental costs.



Another big problem is that my schedule is about to get quite full with

travel for work and vacations I've already paid for. It won't free up again

until mid-June at the earliest. I'd have to work transition training and

another checkride around all that. Getting the checkride scheduled is

problematical enough as it is.



Yes C I'm still highly pissed off by the situation C especially since it was

just a matter of a couple of days between the report and the checkride.

-- 

Jay Maynard C K5ZC C PP-ASEL C AGI      http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont C MN (KFRM)                        (Yes C that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC ======================= the ties Day =======================              - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS =======================            - List Contribution Web Site sp;                         =



	




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KE6FIS(at)arrl.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:38 am Post subject: Just my $.02

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Iv'e been quietly reading and building from plans my 601XL going on 4 years

 . Just like everyone else that owns and or  dreams of flying their XL I bel

 ieved that this plane and design was for me. I didn't think for a minute th

 at it was going to be perfect in ever aspect. I doubt that man has or will 

 ever build a flying machine that sooner or later doesn't have a AD attached

  to it. The NTSB and everyone that is or will be envolved in the matter wil

 l come up with a plan to make our planes even better and safer than they we

 re when we said I DO. Whatever the fix is I plan on using it to enhance my 

 601XL. 

 

     If it sounds as if I am plugging for Zenith well thats your $.02 

 

   Jon B. still cutting and forming 


	


Jon, I hear you. 



My strategy so far has been to buy a component kit, screw 

something up, scratch build a new part using the plans and my expensive

recently-destroyed part as an example, and move on to the next part.

Lather, rinse, repeat. Time-consuming, slow, and I love it.



My $.02:



The Zenith is a great plane for truly exploring the educational aspect of 

this sport to whatever degree desired, exactly as the FAA intended when 

it created E-AB. The range of options from plans-builder, to component 

kits, to full kits, to quickbuilds, to turnkey LSA; is there any other 

plane with so many options on the market? That's part of the attraction

I have to this plane. Even if Zenith the Company went out of business

(I sure hope not) I could still finish the plane from plans. It's a

simple and proven design, as far as I can tell structurally as good if

not better than many E-AB designs that have flown before. But I'm still

the factory. I can modify my plane however I want, whether CH approves

or not. I can do my own FEA/flutter tests/tail mods for my own

edification and enjoyment if I feel like it, whether I know what I'm

doing or not, because it's part of educating myself. After 40 hours of

flight testing I've either proven myself and the plane competent, or

I've killed myself over some unpopulated area. Either way, the FAA

blesses the results and moves on.



I certainly hope the FAA doesn't ground the entire 601XL fleet, because

that violates the original premise of E-AB and creates a terrible precedent

for the entire sport. I don't see any sign the FAA intends to take that

step, thankfully. It's a freedom we have in the U.S. that is sadly not 

shared by our friends overseas, and as always we need to be diligent in

defending it. 



Like Jon, I expect my plane to have problems before, during and after

I've flight-tested it. Frankly, I expect my building, flying and

maintenance skills will be more of a threat to my plane than any

characteristic of my plane will be to me  I've yet to see any hard data 

that convinces me one way or another that there is an actual problem with 

flutter. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. Like all of us, I await more 

definitive analysis. And again like Jon, I'm sure there'll be more ADs 

down the road as well. That's part of flying.



I understand and sympathize with those folks at the quick-build/LSA end

of the range who have significant money and time invested in their 

planes, and have valid safety, liability, insurance and resale value 

concerns. I also hope you will respect those of us who are less 

concerned with liability, insurance and resale value

because we don't have many assets, our (re-)building skills are our hull

insurance, and we're not building with the thought that our plane

has any intrinsic value, except to us. Can't we keep this discussion

cordial on all sides?



Safety concerns us all, of course. But with so many different sorts of

601s out there and so many different regulatory environments, I doubt

there will be a single holy-grail 'fix' for whatever flutter problem may

exist. The U.K. guys have to implement whatever the CAA comes up with. 

Zenith will have to do something for the LSA guys if the NTSB gets its way. 

These folks are correct in wanting specific answers for their specific

aircraft, and wanting them soon. But us E-AB guys can do whatever we want. 

Balance weights, torque tubes, counter-balances, or nothing. 

Welcome to Experimental Aviation!



Sorry for this long-winded post. I appreciate all of you who are looking

for answers. And like Jon, if it turns out there is a problem and a fix,

I'll happily incorporate it. And if I can find a constructive way to

help, I will. Thanks!



Bob Johnson

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psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:25 am Post subject: Just my $.02

Hi Bob,



I wish the world, and the USA, were the utopia you 

described.  Indeed, it is E-AB builders like you and me who have 

already been grounded by the FAA.  So we are the first to be hit by 

regulatory edict in the USA rather than the last.



Apparently the FAA has, by private edict, stopped all inspectors and 

DARs from issuing airworthiness certificates for new E-AB Zodiac XLs 

like mine.  As you may know, I already decided to ground mine until 

the mass balance that the NTSB screamed for is installed on my 

plane.  So I just beat the FAA by a day or two in forcing my plane to 

stay on the ground for an indefinite period.



As of right now, the only USA XLs that are grounded are ones in the 

same status as mine and Dr Ed's - built but not yet inspected.



The only way I will allow my Zodiac to fly is after Zenith or some 

equivalent source engineers and releases a design change including 

aileron mass balancing.  It may take longer than that to satisfy the 

FAA so they will grant an airworthiness certificate, but I suspect 

the same requirements that will satisfy me as the owner and builder 

of an XL  will also satisfy them.

Paul

XL grounded



At 02:38 AM 4/18/2009, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I certainly hope the FAA doesn't ground the entire 601XL fleet, because

that violates the original premise of E-AB and creates a terrible precedent

for the entire sport. I don't see any sign the FAA intends to take that

step, thankfully. It's a freedom we have in the U.S. that is sadly not

shared by our friends overseas, and as always we need to be diligent in

defending it.

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JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:30 pm Post subject: Just my $.02

You poor guys. Why don;t you go by Possum Trot, LA. ? and  pick up the Good Dr. Ed and you all come on over to Georgia and I' ll set you up  flying my XL all day long, Best regards, Bill

  

  In a message dated 4/18/2009 7:25:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  psm(at)att.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net>



Hi    Bob,



I wish the world, and the USA, were the utopia you    

described.  Indeed, it is E-AB builders like you and me who have    

already been grounded by the FAA.  So we are the first to be hit by    

regulatory edict in the USA rather than the last.



Apparently the    FAA has, by private edict, stopped all inspectors and 

DARs from issuing    airworthiness certificates for new E-AB Zodiac XLs 

like mine.  As you    may know, I already decided to ground mine until 

the mass balance that the    NTSB screamed for is installed on my 

plane.  So I just beat the FAA    by a day or two in forcing my plane to 

stay on the ground for an    indefinite period.



As of right now, the only USA XLs that are grounded    are ones in the 

same status as mine and Dr Ed's - built but not yet    inspected.



The only way I will allow my Zodiac to fly is after Zenith    or some 

equivalent source engineers and releases a design change including    

aileron mass balancing.  It may take longer than that to satisfy the    

FAA so they will grant an airworthiness certificate, but I suspect 

the    same requirements that will satisfy me as the owner and builder 

of an    XL  will also satisfy them.

Paul

XL grounded



At    02:38 AM 4/18/2009, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I certainly hope the FAA doesn't    ground the entire 601XL fleet, because

that violates the original    premise of E-AB and creates a terrible precedent

for the entire sport.    I don't see any sign the FAA intends to take that

step, thankfully.    It's a freedom we have in the U.S. that is sadly not

shared by our    friends overseas, and as always we need to be diligent in

defending  ========================   the  ties  Day  ================================================               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  ================================================             - List Contribution Web Site  sp;                             ===================================================


	


	


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