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Tom Jones
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA
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 Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:14 am Post subject: Toe in |
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When checking main gear wheel alignment here's my 2 cents.
My Kitfox was unruly on take off when the tail came up so I checked wheel alignment with the tail up fuselage level attitude.
The method I used is a plumb bob to find and mark fuselage center line on the floor then a straight 2 X 4 about 5 or 6 feet long (or some other item you are sure is straight like a 6 foot level) on edge against the outside of the tires to measure to center line. Measure from both ends of the 2 X 4 to the center line of fuselage on both wheels.
My tube gear had the left wheel seriously toed in. I chained the tail to a post and tried a 6 foot cheater on the axle to bend the gear but stopped that because I was afraid I would break the gear before it bent.
Then I took the axle out of the gear, put it in a vise and bent it with a sledge hammer. It only takes a lite blow to bend the axle this way. After about 2 or 3 tries I had the wheels tracking straight ahead as near as I could measure.
The results were amazing, the airplane is now the easiest to take off and land tail dragger I have ever flown. Some of that may be because I have more practice now but I can say for sure the alignment made a lot of improvement.
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_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA |
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:59 am Post subject: Toe in |
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A little more about wheel alignment....make sure that if you EVER
roll the plane backwards during this process, that you roll it
forwards for several feet so that the gear can normalize itself in
the forward direction before taking any more measurements. I've
helped on about 4 homebuilts, and this seems to always need to be
done. It certainly changes the alignment on my Grove gear-equipped
Kitfox taildragger. I'm pretty sure it has to do with the caster
effect when being rolled backwards that is "tweaking" the alignment
of the mains. I know that when I installed my first pair of wheel-
skis I thought I had the things toed out about an inch, but when I
rolled the plane forwards (on the wheels), everything came into
alignment and the apparent 1" toe-out became about 1/16" of toe-in.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 630+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
On Apr 19, 2009, at 10:14 AM, Tom Jones wrote:
| Quote: |
When checking main gear wheel alignment here's my 2 cents.
My Kitfox was unruly on take off when the tail came up so I checked
wheel alignment with the tail up fuselage level attitude.
The method I used is a plumb bob to find and mark fuselage center
line on the floor then a straight 2 X 4 about 5 or 6 feet long (or
some other item you are sure is straight like a 6 foot level) on
edge against the outside of the tires to measure to center line.
Measure from both ends of the 2 X 4 to the center line of fuselage
on both wheels.
My tube gear had the left wheel seriously toed in. I chained the
tail to a post and tried a 6 foot cheater on the axle to bend the
gear but stopped that because I was afraid I would break the gear
before it bent.
Then I took the axle out of the gear, put it in a vise and bent it
with a sledge hammer. It only takes a lite blow to bend the axle
this way. After about 2 or 3 tries I had the wheels tracking
straight ahead as near as I could measure.
The results were amazing, the airplane is now the easiest to take
off and land tail dragger I have ever flown. Some of that may be
because I have more practice now but I can say for sure the
alignment made a lot of improvement.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 40083#240083
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Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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larry huntley
Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:19 am Post subject: Toe in |
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Tom,
This is interesting. I have read many horror stories about ground handling
characteristics of the Kitfox and ( although having many hours in
taildraggers) was expecting trouble when I first flew mine 500+ hrs ago. It
handled beautifully. I have never had any problems and find it one of the
most docile taildraggers I have flown.
I have flown aircraft with a bit of toe in and know they can be an
extreme handful. If some of these came from the factory not straight and
true,that may explain the problems so many have had. ANY toe in in any
taildragger is a setup for a trip through the weeds at best.
I would advise all to check your landing gear. One easy way is to lay 2
perfectly straight boards(1"X4"X 8' +) against the outside of the tires and
measure between both ends. Yes, you will have to find two buddies to give
you a hand for half an hour max. If they are off then get more critical. If
they are toed out it is not much of a problem unless it is extreme, but
straight is better.
Larry Huntley, Dundee,NY
4-1200 Soob,510hrs,
still on little fat original tires
---
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Larry Huntley,Dundee,NY
Kitfox 4-1200 N234EE
EA81,AMAX Redrive Warp 3 blade |
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:05 am Post subject: Toe in |
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Again, I'd like to point out that "blanket" statements like this one
are not necessarily true. I have a slight amount of toe-in, and that
qualifies for "ANY toe in" and I have one ground loop to my credit in
over 1500 landings in over 600 hrs of flying. The one g'loop came as
a result of turning the plane at too fast a speed....trying to get
turned around so I could see what the cops were doing at the approach
end of the field. 
As someone has pointed out, all homebuilts are different, and "your
mileage may vary" as the saying goes. I think it all depends on the
length of the aircraft from the mains to the tailwheel, how wide is
the distance between the mains, width of the main tires (maybe),
weight of the aircraft, and maybe other factors.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 632.8 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
On Apr 19, 2009, at 11:18 AM, Larry Huntley wrote:
| Quote: | ANY toe in in any taildragger is a setup for a trip through the
weeds at best.
|
[quote] Larry Huntley, Dundee,NY
4-1200 Soob,510hrs,
still on little fat original tires
---
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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:20 am Post subject: Toe in |
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Tom C Your method of checking each wheel independend of the other sounds like the best to me. Checking the toe in on wheels only doesn't find the wheel that is misaligned. I guess either method would work but the plane would have a little "dog track to it if both wheels were parallel or toed out but not aligned with the fuselage. Might not be enough to be noticable though
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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:39 am Post subject: Toe in |
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Lynn C I know you are a hell of a mechanic C engineer and fabricator. But C are you sure the toe in measurements changed by
1 1/16 " by just rolling the plane forwards and backwards. Seems like something would have to be loose to vary that much. Also C How much toe in or out exists varies by how far from the axle you take the measurement. Is anybody taking the measurement from other than the plane of the axle on the outer circumference of the tire? A straight edge on the sides of the tire are great for determining toe in or out. But tell me if I am wrong C references on toe in or out are done at the tire outer circumference in the plane of the axle. Tire diameter would also affect the proper toe in or out.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford C IL
[quote] From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Toe in
Date: Sun C 19 Apr 2009 10:58:08 -0400
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
A little more about wheel alignment....make sure that if you EVER
roll the plane backwards during this process C that you roll it
forwards for several feet so that the gear can normalize itself in
the forward direction before taking any more measurements. I've
helped on about 4 homebuilts C and this seems to always need to be
done. It certainly changes the alignment on my Grove gear-equipped
Kitfox taildragger. I'm pretty sure it has to do with the caster
effect when being rolled backwards that is "tweaking" the alignment
of the mains. I know that when I installed my first pair of wheel-
skis I thought I had the things toed out about an inch C but when I
rolled the plane forwards (on the wheels) C everything came into
alignment and the apparent 1" toe-out became about 1/16" of toe-in.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster C taildragger
Jabiru 2200 C #2062 C 630+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
On Apr 19 C 2009 C at 10:14 AM C Tom Jones wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net>
>
> When checking main gear wheel alignment here's my 2 cents.
>
> My Kitfox was unruly on take off when the tail came up so I checked
> wheel alignment with the tail up fuselage level attitude.
>
> The method I used is a plumb bob to find and mark fuselage center
> line on the floor then a straight 2 X 4 about 5 or 6 feet long (or
> some other item you are sure is straight like a 6 foot level) on
> edge against the outside of the tires to measure to center line.
> Measure from both ends of the 2 X 4 to the center line of fuselage
> on both wheels.
>
> My tube gear had the left wheel seriously toed in. I chained the
> tail to a post and tried a 6 foot cheater on the axle to bend the
> gear but stopped that because I was afraid I would break the gear
> before it bent.
>
> Then I took the axle out of the gear C put it in a vise and bent it
> with a sledge hammer. It only takes a lite blow to bend the axle
> this way. After about 2 or 3 tries I had the wheels tracking
> straight ahead as near as I could measure.
>
> The results were amazing C the airplane is now the easiest to take
> off and land tail dragger I have ever flown. Some of that may be
> because I have more practice now but I can say for sure the
> alignment made a lot of improvement.
>
> --------
> Tom Jones
> Classic IV
> 503 Rotax C 72 inch Two blade Warp
> Ellensburg C WA
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240083#240083
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>=====================
_=====
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:34 am Post subject: Toe in |
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Pat, keep in mind that I said I was measuring the toe with skis on
the plane. This exaggerated the amount of apparent toe, as does the
method of using 2x4's....the longer the boards, the greater the
apparent amount of difference between the boards, but the greater the
accuracy. It would seem that the best method would be to use a board
of length "X" and measure the difference at both ends, then calculate
the angle of toe in/out. This would take the diameter of the tire out
of the equation.
It would be a simple matter to roll your plane backwards, take a
"board reading" , then roll the plane forwards about 10 feet and take
another measurement and compare. Just be sure to mark the boards
left, right, top, etc., to be sure that in case of board warp, wind,
or curve, that you're leveling the field so to speak. And be sure to
make a mark adjacent to the axle for reference. Let us know what you
find.
When I was working as a mechanic a century ago, I had access to a toe
gauge. It was a long telescoping metal tube which had a spring-loaded
end attached to it. The spring-loaded end was attached to a measuring
device with a pointer pointing to a ruler. If you pressed on the end,
the pointer would move along the ruler. There were also...at each end
of the device...a small chain about 6" long. If this device was
placed in between the front tires of the car, at the sidewall of the
tire, near the front of the tire, with the chains *just* touching the
ground, and the pointer set to zero, and the car rolled forward, the
devise would stay pressed between the tires and as the car was rolled
until the chains were again *just* touching the ground, this time at
the rear of the tires, and the ruler/pointer was read it would tell
you what the toe in/out of the car was at the time......WHEW! Lotta
imagination needed there...sorry. Nowadays steering components would
get in the way of being able to use such a device, so they (those
clever bastards) invented a front end alignment machine which does
the job without all these neat "garage sale" items....ah, progress,
you gotta love it. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 632.8 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
On Apr 19, 2009, at 1:39 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
| Quote: | Lynn, I know you are a hell of a mechanic, engineer and fabricator.
But, are you sure the toe in measurements changed by
1 1/16 " by just rolling the plane forwards and backwards. Seems
like something would have to be loose to vary that much. Also, How
much toe in or out exists varies by how far from the axle you take
the measurement. Is anybody taking the measurement from other than
the plane of the axle on the outer circumference of the tire? A
straight edge on the sides of the tire are great for determining
toe in or out. But tell me if I am wrong, references on toe in or
out are done at the tire outer circumference in the plane of the
axle. Tire diameter would also affect the proper toe in or out.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
> From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net
> Subject: Re: Toe in
> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:58:08 -0400
> To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
>
> A little more about wheel alignment....make sure that if you EVER
> roll the plane backwards during this process, that you roll it
> forwards for several feet so that the gear can normalize itself in
> the forward direction before taking any more measurements. I've
> helped on about 4 homebuilts, and this seems to always need to be
> done. It certainly changes the alignment on my Grove gear-equipped
> Kitfox taildragger. I'm pretty sure it has to do with the caster
> effect when being rolled backwards that is "tweaking" the alignment
> of the mains. I know that when I installed my first pair of wheel-
> skis I thought I had the things toed out about an inch, but when I
> rolled the plane forwards (on the wheels), everything came into
> alignment and the apparent 1" toe-out became about 1/16" of toe-in.
>
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 630+ hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Status: flying
>
|
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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:32 pm Post subject: Toe in |
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Lynn C OK C your toe did not vary by 1 1/16" then. You were not measuring at the tire circumference. The 1st time I ever got involved on toe in was helping an army buddy of mine check his road racing Corvette front end at the track before the race. He got the car on smooth level blacktop C rolled it backward and forward C put oil cans C remember those C in front of the tire C we measured at a tread on top of the can C moved to the back of the tire at oil can height and measured on the same tread. He said it didn't have to be exact as long as it didn't toe out and had a small amount of toe in. From oil can height the toe in amount would be significantly greater at axle height. Chuck remember that at Meadowdale Raceway?
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford C IL
| Quote: | From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net
Subject: Re: Toe in
Date: Sun C 19 Apr 2009 14:34:25 -0400
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Pat C keep in mind that I said I was measuring the toe with skis on
the plane. This exaggerated the amount of apparent toe C as does the
method of using 2x4's....the longer the boards C the greater the
apparent amount of difference between the boards C but the greater the
accuracy. It would seem that the best method would be to use a board
of length "X" and measure the difference at both ends C then calculate
the angle of toe in/out. This would take the diameter of the tire out
of the equation.
It would be a simple matter to roll your plane backwards C take a
"board reading" C then roll the plane forwards about 10 feet and take
another measurement and compare. Just be sure to mark the boards
left C right C top C etc. C to be sure that in case of board warp C wind C
or curve C that you're leveling the field so to speak. And be sure to
make a mark adjacent to the axle for reference. Let us know what you
find.
When I was working as a mechanic a century ago C I had access to a toe
gauge. It was a long telescoping metal tube which had a spring-loaded
end attached to it. The spring-loaded end was attached to a measuring
device with a pointer pointing to a ruler. If you pressed on the end C
the pointer would move along the ruler. There were also...at each end
of the device...a small chain about 6" long. If this device was
placed in between the front tires of the car C at the sidewall of the
tire C near the front of the tire C with the chains *just* touching the
ground C and the pointer set to zero C and the car rolled forward C the
devise would stay pressed between the tires and as the car was rolled
until the chains were again *just* touching the ground C this time at
the rear of the tires C and the ruler/pointer was read it would tell
you what the toe in/out of the car was at the time......WHEW! Lotta
imagination needed there...sorry. Nowadays steering components would
get in the way of being able to use such a device C so they (those
clever bastards) invented a front end alignment machine which does
the job without all these neat "garage sale" items....ah C progress C
you gotta love it. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster C taildragger
Jabiru 2200 C #2062 C 632.8 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
On Apr 19 C 2009 C at 1:39 PM C patrick reilly wrote:
> Lynn C I know you are a hell of a mechanic C engineer and fabricator.
> But C are you sure the toe in measurements changed by
> 1 1/16 " by just rolling the plane forwards and backwards. Seems
> like something would have to be loose to vary that much. Also C How
> much toe in or out exists varies by how far from the axle you take
> the measurement. Is anybody taking the measurement from other than
> the plane of the axle on the outer circumference of the tire? A
> straight edge on the sides of the tire are great for determining
> toe in or out. But tell me if I am wrong C references on toe in or
> out are done at the tire outer circumference in the plane of the
> axle. Tire diameter would also affect the proper toe in or out.
>
> Pat Reilly
> Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> Rockford C IL
>
>
> > From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net
> > Subject: Re: Toe in
> > Date: Sun C 19 Apr 2009 10:58:08 -0400
> > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
> >
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
> >
> > A little more about wheel alignment....make sure that if you EVER
> > roll the plane backwards during this process C that you roll it
> > forwards for several feet so that the gear can normalize itself in
> > the forward direction before taking any more measurements. I've
> > helped on about 4 homebuilts C and this seems to always need to be
> > done. It certainly changes the alignment on my Grove gear-equipped
> > Kitfox taildragger. I'm pretty sure it has to do with the caster
> > effect when being rolled backwards that is "tweaking" the alignment
> > of the mains. I know that when I installed my first pair of wheel-
> > skis I thought I had the things toed out about an inch C but when I
> > rolled the plane forwards (on the wheels) C everything came into
> > alignment and the apparent 1" toe-out became about 1/16" of toe-in.
> >
> >
> > Lynn Matteson
> > Kitfox IV Speedster C taildragger
> > Jabiru 2200 C #2062 C 630+ hrs
> > Sensenich 62x46
> > Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> &= Archive Search & Download C 7-Day Browse C Chat C FAQ C
&g====
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cliffh(at)outdrs.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:25 pm Post subject: Toe in |
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Rather than rolling the aircraft backward and forward to check the wheel alingment, Take four sheets of flat metal approx 15 ins sq. Smear grease on two, place the other two sheets on the greased plates. Place the sheets in front of the tires and roll the airplane onto the sheets.The upper sheets will slide on the grease and the tires will then be in the position that they want to be.
Floran Higgins
Helena, Mt.
Speedster
912 ULS
[quote] ---
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