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Ellison Throttle Body Problems

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earnestj0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 13
Location: McCall, Idaho

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:58 am Post subject: Ellison Throttle Body Problems

I have an Ellison EFS 3A on my Subaru turbo, Model V.  I have adjusted the throttle body as described in the owners manual and when the engine is running it works very well.  But I have problems getting it started.  It takes 15 to 20 turns to get it going and sometimes after running for a while may take more.  I have followed all the manufacturers recommendations and no improvement.  This throttle body was rebuilt at 

Ellison last fall.  Any suggestions would be helpful. Thanks

Ted

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:03 pm Post subject: Ellison Throttle Body Problems

What Subaru conversion do you have, Ted or did you roll your own?   Mine 

starts fine in most conditions, but can get temperamental when ambient temp 

is below 30f in which case it needs a little engine heat.  Problem is mostly 

because of a very light, low inertia, flywheel and the type of ignitions I 

have.

It's unlikely the TB is the culprit.  Those things are dead simple and easy 

to clean.  More than likely ignition/temperature related.  Do you have some 

sort of primer for it?  If it uses the Electromotive ignitions they take a 

pretty good spin to start the engine, one of their downsides.  Otherwise 

they're great.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I have an Ellison EFS 3A on my Subaru turbo, Model V.  I have adjusted the 

 throttle body as described in the owners manual and when the engine is 

 running it works very well.  But I have problems getting it started.  It 

 takes 15 to 20 turns to get it going and sometimes after running for a 

 while may take more.  I have followed all the manufacturers 

 recommendations and no improvement.  This throttle body was rebuilt at

 Ellison last fall.  Any suggestions would be helpful. Thanks

 Ted





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 40294#240294

earnestj0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 13
Location: McCall, Idaho

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Ellison Throttle Body Problems

Thanks for your input Deke.  My engine is a straight Subaru EA81 with most of the NSI stuff, dual ignition modules, an electric primer. and just put a new battery in.  I have a manual primer that I am going to try see if that makes any difference.  I will also try using only one module during starting, I don't know if that would make any difference but it backfires sometimes on starting!  Timing is set as per NSI recommendations, but maybe needs to be set as per Subaru.  It starts easier when it is cold!!! I am trying different combinations to see what works best. Nothing consistent so far. 

Ted

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:09 pm Post subject: Ellison Throttle Body Problems

It does sound like ignition, especially with the backfiring.  Try to avoid 

that because there are reports of the backfiring causing damage to the psru. 

Possibly your ignitions are not timed the same so your idea of trying one or 

the other has merit.  You also might try a new set of plugs as a fouled plug 

or one with a cracked insulator can cause all kinds of troubles.

Keep us in the loop.

Deke



---

earnestj0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 13
Location: McCall, Idaho

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:54 am Post subject: Re: Ellison Throttle Body Problems

Just wanted to post a final response.  Thanks to all on this list over the last year for help on every issue to help get me up in the air with my Vixen. I spoke with Mr. Ellison yesterday and he gave me some tests to perform on the throttle body to determine if functioning properly.  First put the fuel pump on to produce pressure, shut fuel shut off valve to prevent backflow, then turn it off.  If the pressure goes down, there is a blockage of the needle valve in the TB and gas would be leakiing into the opening.  Second, when engine running, turn off fuel shut of valve to stop engine, then, start cranking the engine and turn the fuel shut off valve back on.  These tests determine if the mixture is too rich.  Both tests were normal. 

So I set the timing as per Subaru to 8 BTDC instead of the NSI which I believe is around 18-22 BTDC for the initial  setting.  I left the 1000 and 3000 RPM settings alone.  IT STARTED EVERY TIME!!!  :0

Thanks for all the help. 

If anyone is ever in McCall/Donnelly Idaho area, look me up.  

Ted

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:33 am Post subject: Ellison Throttle Body Problems

Ted,



Caught the McCall/Donnelly at the end of your post.  Kitfox Heaven to be 

sure.  I am building now, but hope to catch you there in a year or so.



Lowell



---

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:02 am Post subject: Ellison Throttle Body Problems

On Wed, April 22, 2009 7:54 am, earnestj0 wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Just wanted to post a final response.  Thanks to all on this list over the last year

 for help on every issue to help get me up in the air with my Vixen. I spoke with Mr.

 Ellison yesterday and he gave me some tests to perform on the throttle body to

 determine if functioning properly.  First put the fuel pump on to produce pressure,

 shut fuel shut off valve to prevent backflow, then turn it off.  If the pressure goes

 down, there is a blockage of the needle valve in the TB and gas would be leakiing into

 the opening.  Second, when engine running, turn off fuel shut of valve to stop engine,

 then, start cranking the engine and turn the fuel shut off valve back on.  These tests

 determine if the mixture is too rich.  Both tests were normal.

 So I set the timing as per Subaru to 8 BTDC instead of the NSI which I believe is

 around 18-22 BTDC for the initial  setting.  I left the 1000 and 3000 RPM settings

 alone.  IT STARTED EVERY TIME!!!  :0


	


Ted - this is a good, informative and well written report. Not something you see in

every post on this list for sure.



My impression from being around Lance is in spite of some of his arrogance and

tendency for making exaggerated claims is that his empirical analysis and writing is

usually fairly good. So, it would be surprising to me for him to publish 18-22° BTDC

when the working value is 8° BTDC. So, I'm wondering just how it is stated in his

manual? Is it open for interpretation? You said you can set the spark advance at

multiple RPM's - idle, 1000 and 3000 RPM. Is that also true for the configuration

Lance was using for purposes of the manual you have?



What does the manual say exactly? And is this the same info Deke has for his?



I have his CAP and he delivered blades an inch shorter than stated on the invoice and

since he is no longer in business, I might just have $3k or so tied up in something

not even worth the effort to flight test with.

-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell



"All of this reads as if yanked from an Ayn Rand novel. The

government, in a desperate attempt to avoid political pain caused by

its own foolish economic mistakes and lax oversight, has poured

billions into bankrupt companies. Then when those companies pass out

bonuses they claim are necessary to retain qualified workers, the

political firestorm leads government officials to propose tax rates

that would make even British socialists of a half century ago blush.

We are slipping into debates that have nothing to do with a free

economy and everything to do with the government calibrating how to

balance the favors it hands out with the inevitable moral outrage

those favors engender."

-- Wall Street Journal columnist John Fund



"Some of our biggest political fallacies come from accepting words

as evidence of realities. ...[For example,] 'gun control' laws do

not control guns. The District of Columbia's very strong laws

against gun ownership have done nothing to stop the high murder

rate in Washington. New York had very strong gun control laws

decades before London did. But the murder rate in New York has

been some multiple of that in London for more than two centuries,

regardless of which city had the stronger gun control laws at a

given time. Back in 1954, when there were no restrictions on

owning shotguns in England and there were far more owners of

pistols then than there were decades later, there were only 12

cases of armed robbery in London. By the 1990s, after stringent

gun controls laws were imposed, there were well over a thousand

armed robberies a year in London. In the late 1990s, after an

almost total ban on handguns in England, gun crimes went up

another ten percent. The reason -- too obvious to be accepted by

the intelligentsia -- is that law-abiding people became more

defenseless against criminals who ignored the law and kept their

guns."

-- Hoover Institution economist Thomas Sowell



"I want an American character, that the powers of Europe may be

convinced we act for ourselves and not for others; this, in my

judgment, is the only way to be respected abroad and happy at home."

-- George Washington

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:58 am Post subject: Ellison Throttle Body Problems

 	  Quote: 	
		  > Just wanted to post a final response.  Thanks to all on this list over 

> the last year

> for help on every issue to help get me up in the air with my Vixen. I 

> spoke with Mr.

> Ellison yesterday and he gave me some tests to perform on the throttle 

> body to

> determine if functioning properly.  First put the fuel pump on to produce 

> pressure,

> shut fuel shut off valve to prevent backflow, then turn it off.  If the 

> pressure goes

> down, there is a blockage of the needle valve in the TB and gas would be 

> leakiing into

> the opening.  Second, when engine running, turn off fuel shut of valve to 

> stop engine,

> then, start cranking the engine and turn the fuel shut off valve back on. 

> These tests

> determine if the mixture is too rich.  Both tests were normal.

> So I set the timing as per Subaru to 8 BTDC instead of the NSI which I 

> believe is

> around 18-22 BTDC for the initial  setting.  I left the 1000 and 3000 RPM 

> settings

> alone.  IT STARTED EVERY TIME!!!  :0


	


Good feedback, Ted.  Thanks.  I'll have to take a look at my manual to see 

what it says because mine is the normally aspirated version where I believe 

you said yours was turbo?  I think my "initial" setting was also 25 which 

always seemed a bit high for engine start which may be part of why starting 

gets cranky when temps are below 30f.  I don't have my manual handy to 

verify my settings, but I'll check it out.

Did you time yours by using a timing light or did you just move the pointers 

on the modules?  I was told that the pointers were more of a guide and one 

should always use a light to ensure accuracy.

Good to hear that you have solved your problem.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 40+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert

earnestj0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 13
Location: McCall, Idaho

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: Ellison Throttle Body Problems

The manual for the original NSI engine had the settings at 

Initial- 22 BTDC,  1000-26 BTDC, and 3000 - 24 BTDC.  That is the settings for the turbo.  I can look up the settings recommended in my manual for the normally aspirated engine if any one interested.  



Since my engine is not the NSI, but a stock Subaru, I have been having to use more of the standard parameters in the Subaru manual (Chilton)

That is where I found the 8 BTDC initial timing and when set to that it starts before the second revolution.  I spoke to my mechanic this morning about the timing and since the Subaru manual does not state the timing for higher RPMs, he told me that above 3000 RPM the advancement should be in the 30 BTDC range and would give better performance especially at higher elevations.  I am going to try some different settings this weekend and observe the differences.  It might make the difference in climb rates.  



As far as the way I did it is with the knobs on the ignition modules but I am going to try to check it with the timing light.  It is quite difficult to see at those higher RPM settings with that prop at gale force.  I'll report back when I see how it goes. 

Ted

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:29 pm Post subject: Ellison Throttle Body Problems

Ted, good info.  Thanks.  I think my timing is quite a bit higher at 3000, 

but I need to go check my manuals again.  I couldn't find the settings last 

week, but I was in a hurry so I probably missed it.  The NSI does not use 

the stock cam and the heads are milled, so I suspect that makes a 

difference.  The turbo is a different breed also.  Much lower compression. 

Anyway, keep the reports coming in as there is always someone who gleans 

some goodies from it.



On mine, I found it best to just remove the prop to time it.  Much easier, 

quieter, and a whole group safer.  Best to avoid wearing long sleeve shirts 

too.

Good to see that you're making some progress.



Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 405+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert





---

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:02 pm Post subject: Ellison Throttle Body Problems

Ted, I found my operating limitations in the airplane.  Who'd a thunk! 

Anyway, here is what it says.



    Normal aspirated  (deg)                                  Turbo



    inital - 23 at 1350rpm                            22 at 1350rpm

    3000 - 33 at 3000rpm                            28 at 3000rpm

    8000 - 33 at 5800rpm                            24 at 5800rpm

    rev limit - 6200                                        rev limit - 5800



This is for info only and yours may not be the same.

I still might lower my initial a few degrees.

Deke

[quote] Ted, good info.  Thanks.  I think my timing is quite a bit higher at 3000, 

 but I need to go check my manuals again.  I couldn't find the settings 

 last week, but I was in a hurry so I probably missed it.  The NSI does not 

 use the stock cam and the heads are milled, so I suspect that makes a 

 difference.  The turbo is a different breed also.  Much lower compression. 

 Anyway, keep the reports coming in as there is always someone who gleans 

 some goodies from it.



 On mine, I found it best to just remove the prop to time it.  Much easier, 

 quieter, and a whole group safer.  Best to avoid wearing long sleeve 

 shirts too.

 Good to see that you're making some progress.



 Deke Morisse

 Mikado Michigan

 S5/Subaru/CAP 405+ TT

 "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but 

 progress."

 - Joseph Joubert





 ---

earnestj0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 13
Location: McCall, Idaho

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: Ellison Throttle Body Problems

Thanks Deke,

I went back to my manual again, it said the same thing.    Shouldn't take anything from memory. 



Found the same settings, i.e. 



So my mechanic was pretty close.  Sorry for the slight difference.  So I will set mine at those for the higher settings.  Taking the prop off is a good idea.  Will do that.  Should have thought of that myself!!!



Thanks to all of you for your comments, very helpful. 

Ted

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