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Brake Lines

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Ken Potter

Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 85
Location: Lanark, Ontario

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:31 pm Post subject: Brake Lines

Hi Folks;



I'm ready to install brake lines in my Model II.  The lines supplied with the kit are a plastic material.  Question, all of the certified aircraft I've flown had solid metallic brake lines.  Are these plastic lines, supplied with the kit 20 years ago kosher or are there updated lightweight lines available??



Cheers



Ken

_________________
Ken Potter
Model II, No. 483
Rotax 582, C-Box,
99% Complete
C-FJKP
Lanark, Ontario

larry huntley

Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 149

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:02 pm Post subject: Brake Lines

I used mine for 120 yrs and 500 hrs. When I recovered the fuselage this 

winter I bought new ones from John McBean. They are cheap. Old ones were a 

bit brittle.

                                                                             

 Larry Huntley

---

_________________
Larry Huntley,Dundee,NY
Kitfox 4-1200 N234EE
EA81,AMAX Redrive Warp 3 blade

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:17 pm Post subject: Brake Lines

After that long I would expect them to be brittle.  That is definitely 

something for the record books, Larry.  

Deke

do not archive

[quote] 



 I used mine for 120 yrs and 500 hrs. When I recovered the fuselage this 

 winter I bought new ones from John McBean. They are cheap. Old ones were a 

 bit brittle.

 

 Larry Huntley

 ---

larry huntley

Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 149

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:49 pm Post subject: Brake Lines

Well, It might be a little exaggeration Deke, but we are amongst feathered 

bretheren here.   ;o)   Has been 10 yrs though.   Larry



---

_________________
Larry Huntley,Dundee,NY
Kitfox 4-1200 N234EE
EA81,AMAX Redrive Warp 3 blade

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:49 pm Post subject: Brake Lines

Ken,



The Nyla-Flow tubing included with the kits it the thing to use.  You might 

want to check it out a bit as it appears to be pretty old.  Read about it on 

the Aircraft Spruce website or their catalogue.  It is standard on most 

kitplanes, including the Lancair.



Lowell



---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Lines

I would buy new  line,  Just bend it 90 degrees and see what happens, it gets brittle. 



ACS will have the proper nuts and sleeves that go inside. I bought my last bunch  from Wicks and have to  re-order soon, let me know if ACS in Brantford has them . Also , Leavens might have them too. Don;t order US  unless they will ship via postal unless you ready to get shafted by customs brokers like Fed EX.   A 300 $ US order might turn into 500 or 600$ CDN  quickly. 

KEn,  What prop did you go with ?   



Dave

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Ken Potter

Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 85
Location: Lanark, Ontario

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:58 am Post subject: Re: Brake Lines

Thanks everyone for the advice. They seem flexible still but I think I'll replace them anyways.

Dave,  I decided for now that I'll go with the 3 blade ground adjustable GSC which came with the kit.  The mechanical in-flight-adjustable still intrigues me but I fear that it would add an extra level of complexity while I fly off my hours later this summer.



Cheers

Ken

_________________
Ken Potter
Model II, No. 483
Rotax 582, C-Box,
99% Complete
C-FJKP
Lanark, Ontario

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 3:38 am Post subject: Re: Brake Lines

Ken, 



You will need new fittings like these    

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/polyflofittings.php



The top one is likely what you will need,  I don't see the inner sleeve in the pic

Wicks shows it better   

http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=8801/index.html



http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=8863/index.html



and here is the sleeve. 

http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=8802/index.html



I have seen  fitting used without sleeves and might work ok. 

Don;'t use  pluming fittings. They don;t seal that well. 

Dave



PS  GSC prop should work fine. 

I have a inflight adjust flight in stock with Warp blades with SS leading edges.  I might try ti on my Kitfox this year if i get around to it  unless it sells first .

Ken Potter

Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 85
Location: Lanark, Ontario

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 4:26 am Post subject: Re: Brake Lines

Thanks Dave;



You mentioned the prop a few months ago in another string.  If you still have it once I've flown off my hours (later this year or early next) I may be interested in it.



Cheers



Ken

_________________
Ken Potter
Model II, No. 483
Rotax 582, C-Box,
99% Complete
C-FJKP
Lanark, Ontario

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:09 am Post subject: Brake Lines

What year is the prop?  GSC has a time expiry of 500 hr and 5 yr whichever

comes first.  As with all these things the expiry is not compulsory but if

your prop is older I'd check with GSC and see if they will replace your

blades for a discount price.  



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Ken Potter

Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 85
Location: Lanark, Ontario

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Lines

Dave;



The prop is probably 15 years old (came with the partially completed kit).  Always stored inside in a heated shop.  I'll check with GSC but they look fine to me based on visual inspection.



Ken

_________________
Ken Potter
Model II, No. 483
Rotax 582, C-Box,
99% Complete
C-FJKP
Lanark, Ontario

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject: Brake Lines

I've never had a blade departure but Dave has....  Not pretty!    Good idea

to at least talk with GSC before trusting your butt to the prop.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:33 am Post subject: Re: Brake Lines

The best idea is to not use a GSC.   There are many stronger, better, more efficient, and more modern propellers you can use now days. The GSC has a history of failures, and a very short life span limitation, that should tell you something....  Warp Drive with the nickel leading edges is a very good prop, what I use now, and what I will defiantly be using on my Kitfox.  



The GSC prop does make excellent firewood though    



Mike

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"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

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dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:39 am Post subject: Re: Brake Lines

Mike,  Any prop can fail. I have seen some of them fail.



Do you have some Factual information for your slanderous comments ? 



I have posted pics of WARP, IVO and GSC that have failed.  can you post your facts ? 



Dave

 	  JetPilot wrote: 	
		  The best idea is to not use a GSC.   There are many stronger, better, more efficient, and more modern propellers you can use now days. The GSC has a history of failures, and a very short life span limitation, that should tell you something....  Warp Drive with the nickel leading edges is a very good prop, what I use now, and what I will defiantly be using on my Kitfox.  



The GSC prop does make excellent firewood though    



Mike

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:03 am Post subject: Brake Lines

On Tue, April 21, 2009 9:33 am, JetPilot wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The best idea is to not use a GSC.   There are many stronger, better, more efficient,

 and more modern propellers you can use now days.  Warp Drive with the nickel leading

 edges is a very good prop, what I use now, and what I will defiantly be using on my

 Kitfox.


	


Mike, you certainly express your thoughts in a conclusive manner. Did you know that

Jabiru requires the use of wood propellers on their engines?



<http://www.jabiru.net.au/propellerbodyFrame-1.htm>



It would be helpful if you provided a little more backup to your conclusion. I've

heard it said many times that wood props are especially susceptible to water damage

and that makes them less than ideal for use with float operations. Since Jabiru

requires them, they wouldn't be the engine of choice for float ops. Must be something

nice about wood props or an engine manufacturer wouldn't specify them by preference.



Could be an accidental misspelling but why is using a Warp Drive with nickel edges

being defiant? I don't think there is a hard and fast rule directing one to use some

other prop, wood, metal, composite or otherwise on the KF. Maybe you meant

'definitely' rather than defiantly.



Must be something good about GSC, they sure sell a lot of props. Maybe it's price,

maybe performance or weight. Must be some reason people are buying them and some

reason why an engine manufacturer specifies them.

-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell



"President Obama proclaims no more of George W. Bush's 'War on

Terror,' even as he silently keeps most of it in place. The result

is as confusing as it soon will be dangerous. In these first 100

days of his presidency, Barack Obama has promised that the

Guantanamo Bay detention facility will be closed within a year. He

has assured us wiretapping and overseas rendition are under

re-examination. The Obama administration has also been busy

tweaking terminology in an effort to put a kinder, gentler face to

the war. There is no longer a 'Global War on Terror': It has been

replaced by 'overseas contingency operations.' ... According to

Janet Napolitano, the new secretary of Homeland Security, there is

not even 'terrorism' but 'man-caused disasters.' ... Despite

American apologies and softer language, radical Islamists still

think we are at war -- and that they can defeat us. In short, we

are in a new, surreal, and dangerous phase of the old war, doing

enough killing to enrage our enemies even as we act sometimes as

if we are not. ... Fighting a clear war against enemies is

dangerous. Clearly not fighting a war against enemies may be more

dangerous. But sort of fighting a war, while acting as if we are

sort of not, may be the most dangerous thing of all."

-- Hoover Institution historian Victor Davis Hanson



There is no distinctly native American criminal class...save Congress

-- Mark Twain



"It is necessary for every American, with becoming energy to endeavor

to stop the dissemination of principles evidently destructive of the

cause for which they have bled. It must be the combined virtue of the

rulers and of the people to do this, and to rescue and save their

civil and religious rights from the outstretched arm of tyranny, which

may appear under any mode or form of government."

-- Mercy Warren, History of the Rise, Progress, and Termination of the

American Revolution, 1805



"The idea that American 'hate groups' are right-wing and bristling with vets

got new life with JFK's assassination at the hands of a disgruntled vet named Lee

Harvey Oswald. Everybody knew right away that Oswald was an agent of 'hate' -- and

hate was code for right-wing and racist. Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren

summed up the instantaneous conventional wisdom when he blamed the 'climate of

hatred' for Kennedy's death. Everybody knew that the right was involved. There was

just one inconvenient truth: Oswald was a communist who, according to the Warren

report, had 'an extreme dislike of the rightwing' and had actually tried to murder a

right-wing former Army general. When Hollywood filmed the Tom Clancy novel 'The Sum

of All Fears,' it changed the real villains from Jihadi terrorists to a bunch of

European CEOs who were secret Nazis. Because 'everybody knows' that's where the real

threat lies. Sen. John Kerry belonged to an organization of vets that considered

assassinating American politicians. (Kerry denied participating in those meetings.)

Barack Obama was friends with, and a colleague of, a domestic terrorist whose

organization plotted to murder soldiers and their wives at a social at Fort Dix. A

young Hillary Clinton sympathized with the Black Panthers, a paramilitary gang of

racist murderers and cop killers. Bring that up and you're a paranoid nutcase out of

'Dr. Strangelove.' But if you're terrified of a bunch of citizens who throw tea in

the water and demand lower taxes and less government spending, well, that's just a

sign of political seriousness. Because everyone knows who the real threat to the

country is."

-- National Review editor Jonah Goldberg

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

Ken Potter

Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 85
Location: Lanark, Ontario

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Lines

Wow,  I sure didn't intend to start debate about propellors but glad I did.  I'm concerned about safety for sure,  but also am concerned about long term cost.  This is my first kitplane and I'm used to certified aircraft and props.  

I I told Dave earlier I'm to going to contact GSC for advice.  The prop looks good under visual inspection.  I work for the Transportation Safety Board of Canada as an investigator and see enough accident reports that I do not want to take a chance. If a GSC prop has an automatic 5 year expiry date (with no hours)  then I consider it a "disposable" prop, and, even though I inherited it with the kit I bought, would not consider one again just based on TBO. 



That said,  I plan to put the plane on floats in the next two years and may need to change the prop anyways.



Cheers,  and keep up the discussion!!!

Ken

_________________
Ken Potter
Model II, No. 483
Rotax 582, C-Box,
99% Complete
C-FJKP
Lanark, Ontario

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:37 pm Post subject: Brake Lines

My plane came with a three blade GSC.  I had problems getting the three

blades pitched the same...  I expect an earlier owner over torque the prop

bolts.  I flew it on floats for several hours but couldn't get the pitch the

way I wanted. So after checking around I decided to go with an Ivo IFA prop

that was just a bit shorter than the GSC. 



The first flight with the Ivo was fantastic in terms of smoothness!  Not to

mention power handling.  It was on the second or third flight with the Ivo

that I found out that my tach was reading a consistent 20% too high.  This

means I never got all the power into the GSC that the engine was capable of.

I feel lucky because I really don't think that prop would have taken the

full power from the 582.



One of the things I learned from the Ivo and the GSC was the importance of

having a reasonably calibrated or corrected torque wrench.  Too tight and

you compress the fibres of the prop and you may never see it.  Too loose and

it will change itch and elongate the mounting bolt holes.  Especially with

the Ivo the torque is quite critical and they indicate the torque should be

checked on regular bassis.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:41 pm Post subject: Brake Lines

Check out this from the GSC site:



http://www.ultralightprops.com/bulletins/051799_sb.pdf



Close to the bottom of the page TBO



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Boilermaker2000

Joined: 14 Apr 2009
Posts: 11
Location: West Lafayette, IN

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:08 am Post subject: Re: Brake Lines

 	  dave wrote: 	
		  Ken, 

You will need new fittings like these    

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/polyflofittings.php 	




Are the old ones reusable, or does the sleeve get crimped on somehow?

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