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Charging system trouble shooting
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WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:21 pm Post subject: Charging system trouble shooting

Looking for a few ideas of where to start with an issue I am having with the electrical system.  Here is the run down;



I bought my KF used and the prior owner kept it on a trickle charger when not flying and seemingly never flew it for more then an hour at a time.  Running only a radio, an intercom, and a strobe the battery got so low in just 2 hours that in coming transmissions were unintelligible and the strobe could be observed working on the voltmeter. 



I installed a Key West voltage regulator with the understanding that it was able to route excess power from the mags to the battery to help charge it.  Installation was SEEMINGLY simple, red, yellow, yellow, black.  Everything runs great.



Since then my Hobbs has only ticked off 1/10 of an hour (about 12 hours of flight time has elapsed) and the duration of my battery has gotten worse if anything.  I had to reroute in flight during a cross country because I had to turn off my radio and strobe and so could not contact any towers.



I suspect the battery is going bad or is just too small but my smart charger indicates that it is still good and holding 100%.  The only real clue I have for any wiring issues is the Hobbs but I am not sure what could have been wired wrong, nor do I have any of the original wiring diagrams.  Do the 2 yellows have a specific position on the Key West regulator?



Since the regulator I have also installed push-to-intercom switches which use the common ground that the Hobbs also uses.  Could this affect it at all?  It does not make any sense that it could but no harm in questioning it.  



So, any ideas or similar experiences?

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:29 pm Post subject: Re: Charging system trouble shooting

Same thing happened on my brothers KF II.  I went to the key west thinking the regulator had fried.  Turned out much worse, the charging coils were fried in a big way.  It will only set ya back about a grand unless you can find a used one.  Hopefully your problem is much simpler.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:49 am Post subject: Charging system trouble shooting

James, you might consider subscribing to the Aeroelectric list on Matronics. 

There are some real electrical geeks over there and would be glad to help.

Deke

do not archive



---

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:55 am Post subject: Re: Charging system trouble shooting

Deleted, bad info.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Last edited by Tom Jones on Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:42 am; edited 1 time in total

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:46 am Post subject: Re: Charging system trouble shooting

James, Have you checked your battery ? 

- Fluid level -- top with distilled water and slow charge over night 

- once charge put on a load test. 



I assume that after you put on the key west regulator that you ran a voltage check ? You should be getting about 14 V  with engine running and 12.5 to 13.2  with engine off 



Dave

_________________
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kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:26 am Post subject: Charging system trouble shooting

My experience has been that these small batteries are only good for 12-18 months.  Good advise.



John Kerr

Classic IV 912ul 784hrs



---

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: Charging system trouble shooting

Thanks for the responses.  

Tom, I sure have been learning a lot, in a good way I think.  I am getting to do a lot of construction and repair type items but the plane is flyable through most of the problems so it keeps me entertained.  I don't really follow with what you are saying about the Key West though.  The Rotax regulator I removed had two yellow wires (no black stripe), a black, and a red, which all wired directly to the Key West.



Dave, besides taking the battery to the auto parts store how do you do a load test?  The water is good and I always slow charge it.



When I first flip in the Master I usually have 12.5 to 13 volts indicated and it never gets any higher then that.  Does this mean that there is no charging going on at all?  I wouldn't doubt it.



Thanks again.

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:51 pm Post subject: Charging system trouble shooting

When it is charging  (engine running) you should see a minimum of 13.8V and

a max of 14.8V.



BTW the trickle charger is not the best for small batteries a pulse charger

is much better to maintain the electrical form of the battery.  There are

pulse chargers for motorcycles that do fantastic jobs of keeping potteries

in tip top shape.



It sounds to me you have one of two problems.  Either the voltage regulator

is not wired up correctly ( the black and red wires)  or your lighting coil

in the mag is toast.  Check the lighting coil for an open with an ohm meter.

If there is continuity start the engine and check there is AC voltage across

the two yellow wires.  That requires you set your voltmeter to ACV not DCV a

common enough mistake.



An additional problem you may have is one of poor grounding.  The regulator

senses the voltage level against a system ground.  (battery -) Generally

this is done through the case of the regulator.  If the regulator is mounted

on an insulated sheet or has a poor ground then the regulator may not work.

Make sure the metal under the regulator is nice and clean and shiny.



Best of luck



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:33 pm Post subject: Charging system trouble shooting

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 When I first flip in the Master I usually have 12.5 to 13 volts indicated 

 and it never gets any higher then that.  Does this mean that there is no 

 charging going on at all?  I wouldn't doubt it.

 Thanks again.

 James

 Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop

 Just about ready to take my check ride.


	


With engine running you should be getting somewhere around 14.5v at the 

battery.  If not you have a charging problem.  Recheck your regulator wiring 

before you start tearing things apart.



Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: Charging system trouble shooting

Red flags are going up all of a sudden.  



1. There is NO charging going on at the battery as is evidenced by the fact that the voltmeter does not indicate anything different between running and not.



2.  The Key West is mounted to the front of the firewall which is covered on BOTH sides with fire retardant mats (this is where the original regulator was mounted).  So it is pretty easy to say that there is either very little or no grounding at all between the regulator housing and the plane or battery.  



So, if I were to cut away the matting behind the regulator should the firewall provide sufficient grounding?



When I "Check the lighting coil for an open" am I checking at the yellow wires?  Can I check for this open as well as for an AC voltage at the terminals of the regulator without having to disconnect any other wires?  Hopefully this will be as simple as doing a little cutting and then just running the engine out in the cul de sac, it's not like my neighbors don't already think I am nuts.

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: Charging system trouble shooting

Key West regulator should not be showing over 14 V, Thy will usually be  13.8 to 13.9 volts that is one of their attributes. ON a Rotax regulator you cold get 14 to  18 v , I stay away from them.

James, Have you checked your battery ?

- Fluid level -- top with distilled water and slow charge over night

- once charge put on a load test.



I assume that after you put on the key west regulator that you ran a voltage check ? You should be getting about 14 V with engine running and 12.5 to 13.2 with engine off



Dave

 	  Fox5flyer wrote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  

 When I first flip in the Master I usually have 12.5 to 13 volts indicated 

 and it never gets any higher then that.  Does this mean that there is no 

 charging going on at all?  I wouldn't doubt it.

 Thanks again.

 James

 Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop

 Just about ready to take my check ride.



	


With engine running you should be getting somewhere around 14.5v at the 

battery.  If not you have a charging problem.  Recheck your regulator wiring 

before you start tearing things apart.



Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Charging system trouble shooting

Deleted, bad info.

tj

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Last edited by Tom Jones on Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:45 am; edited 1 time in total

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:34 pm Post subject: Charging system trouble shooting

Answer to 2 is it should make sure the metal is shiny behind the regulator.

Most regulators ground through the back of the case.  Some have additional

ground wires.  It's worth checking the back of the regulator every three or

four years...  more often in corrosive climates.

Check the continuity of the two yellow wires from the lighting coil.

Continuity testing will not tell you if  there is a short in the coil but it

will tell you if there is a full open anywhere in the coil.  Yes this is the

same two wires you check for AC voltage when you run your engine.

Disconnect at least one of the yellow connections to the regulator when you

do the AC-V and continuity tests.



You won't be the first to run an engine in a Cul De Sac... try to do it when

kids are in school and everybody else is off to work.  Do not try to bribe

any cops who may turn up!



Finally, laugh at the neighbours from 3000 feet.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:38 pm Post subject: Charging system trouble shooting

Guaranteed any regulator that allows buss voltage to climb to 18V will only

burn up your battery or worse!



Being a fan of Murphy and O'Tooles' laws I'd expect worse...much worse!



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:44 pm Post subject: Charging system trouble shooting

On Tue, April 21, 2009 5:30 pm, fox5flyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   With engine running you should be getting somewhere around 14.5v at the

 battery.  If not you have a charging problem.  Recheck your regulator wiring

 before you start tearing things apart.


	


How was it that Johnny used to interrupt ed McMahon? Whoa, lead acid breath, let's

review this.



As pointed out earlier today in a post, an hour meter (Hobbs?) wired into the system,

might prevent the regulator from working. Or make it seem like the lighting coils were

ineffective. So, in the absence of any particular wisdom about his system, I think it

is appropriate to first isolate it to the battery, the charging system and a simple DC

load, like a headlamp.



Next, batteries don't have to be charged to capacity and in fact it is not at all

uncommon to have a vehicle manufacturer select a fully charged voltage of 13.6 to 13.8

volts. The batteries are thought to last longer doing so. Now, the maximum charged

voltage I've seen is 14.1 or 14.2 volts. I am under the impression that if you set a

battery charger to maintain a voltage higher than about that, it will just boil the

battery dry. So, what I am saying is, are you sure it's OK to see an applied voltage

that is sustained of 14.5 volts at the battery? I don't have test data right at hand,

but having it set that high might be cause for reduced battery life.

-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell



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to the Congress: 'The American people are slow to wrath, but when

their wrath is once kindled, it burns like a consuming flame.' Well,

perhaps that kind of wrath will be deserved if our answer to these

serious problems is to repeat the mistakes of the past."

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_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:55 am Post subject: Charging system trouble shooting

Good points Paul.  Thank you.  To be more accurate I probably should have 

stated "somewhere between 13.8 to 14.5", but even that probably would have 

invited some sort of a correction.  My point was, and what I was trying to 

say, that if a voltage test only shows battery voltage then there is no 

charge going on.

Deke

do not archive



---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Charging system trouble shooting

Jame go back to the stasrt of this thread and all your answers right there.    





 	  Fox5flyer wrote: 	
		  Good points Paul.  Thank you.  To be more accurate I probably should have 

stated "somewhere between 13.8 to 14.5", but even that probably would have 

invited some sort of a correction.  My point was, and what I was trying to 

say, that if a voltage test only shows battery voltage then there is no 

charge going on.

Deke

do not archive



--- 	
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Charging system trouble shooting  	Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post

Key West regulator should not be showing over 14 V, Thy will usually be 13.8 to 13.9 volts that is one of their attributes. ON a Rotax regulator you cold get 14 to 18 v , I stay away from them.

James, Have you checked your battery ?

- Fluid level -- top with distilled water and slow charge over night

- once charge put on a load test.



I assume that after you put on the key west regulator that you ran a voltage check ? You should be getting about 14 V with engine running and 12.5 to 13.2 with engine off



Dave

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:33 am Post subject: Re: Charging system trouble shooting

Oops, I have been confusing my Tympanium heavy duty regulator with the key West. I don't have any wiring knowledge for the key West. I am going to delete my other posts on this so as not to further confuse the issue along with the archives.



Sorry about that James



Key West on the left, Tympanium on the right

KeyTympReg1a.jpg

Description:

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_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: Charging system trouble shooting

So does it matter about the grounding so much now that the type of regulator is clarified?  What is a logical starting point for trouble shooting, assuming the battery is fine, and the mags are fine?

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:36 am Post subject: Re: Charging system trouble shooting

Did you check the voltage yet ? 



 	  dave wrote: 	
		  James, Have you checked your battery ? 

- Fluid level -- top with distilled water and slow charge over night 

- once charge put on a load test. 



I assume that after you put on the key west regulator that you ran a voltage check ? You should be getting about 14 V  with engine running and 12.5 to 13.2  with engine off 



Dave

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