Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

GSC props
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:41 am Post subject: GSC props

On Wed, April 22, 2009 5:35 am, fox5flyer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 This thread seems to have morphed to GSC props.

 Unfortunately, GSC was forced into mandating the 5 year limit.  IMO, that

 prop is no different than the engine that it is attached to.  It requires

 regular maintenance according to manufacturers recommendations.  Even though

 the instructions that come with it are very explicit as to care and

 maintenance, it just doesn't seem to get done in all cases.


	


I can understand that you can't store a wood prop outside where it is getting wet from

rain and partially drying out continually. But, without the manuals and never having

read them, on the face of things I would be hesitant to get a wood prop because I

don't think I could operate it such that I could always keep it dry and parking the

aircraft mandates a hangar. So if you went on a trip and were weathered in, you'd

likely have to tie-down in the open and the prop could get rain on it for a day. Of

course you could probably devise a prop cover but that might not function perfectly at

the most vulnerable part - the roots. And as Lynn has pointed out, his prop came from

Florida where it had likely exposure to higher humidity so he found it necessary to

re-torque and then it sounded like he wasn't too confident about how long the job

would last.



I think it would be interesting and helpful if someone could post the maintenance

procedures for the GSC and put this required maintenance in proper perspective. As it

is, I don't think I know enough to ever overcome my reluctance to using a wooden

propeller.



In 1949 my uncle had a Luscombe Sedan and it was always hangared and nearly brand new

when on flight about 20 miles from home with a passenger, suddenly the prop separated

and instantly ripped the engine off the firewall. As you can image what this does to

weight and balance. Extreme rear CG. The passenger was in his ever flight too. Enough

of the firewall was ripped off too that you could see through the front by your feet.

Both of them were smoking at the time too - Camels or Lucky Strikes and gasoline was

running out of the header tank probably. My uncle told the passenger to lean forward

as far as he could but the guy was so terrified, he could not. Well, my uncle Vic

landed that tail dragger on a trail in the sage brush about 10 miles northwest of

Othello, Washington.  My uncle had crushed the lit cigarette into the palm of his hand

and that was the only injury. Within about a week, a sheep herder found the engine

remains within a couple miles of the landing spot with one blade still attached. The

other blade was found within a quarter mile too. Maybe less. I can't remember for sure

who determined that it was a faulty wood prop, FAA, engine or prop manufacturer or

Luscombe but it was a fault in the prop. The warranty covered the prop replacement

which was only a small part of the damage. The plane was repaired and my uncle flew it

for another few years until upgrading to a some Cessna tail dragger, I was only a

little kid then so I can't recall which model. It could have been a 140 but I think

bigger.



So, the entire time of my youth I always thought how strange that someone would even

attempt to make a propeller that turned 2700 rpm out of wood. So, for me to ever

overcome my innate fear of wooden propellers, I would have to see the written

operating and maintenance procedures to determine if I really believed I could live up

to the letter of direction they state. I am so prejudiced that when I discovered a

Jabiru engine required a wood prop, that terminated my interest in Jabiru.



My 90 year old uncle Vic, stopped flying 3 years ago because he could not renew his

medical since he had a pacemaker installed so he sold his C-210. My brother took Vic

up in a Citabria a couple weeks ago and my uncle's flying skills seemed as sharp as

ever. Vic landed it perfectly on their farm strip after a sight seeing trip that

included the vicinity of that forced landing in 1949.



My uncle Vic was a bit of a camera bug at the time too and he got quite a bunch of

photos of the landing scene and later, the discovered engine. These were of course,

monochrome (black and white) photos but real nice. I think he's since scanned all the

negatives and has high them in fairly high quality. I will ask for them and post them

if anyone is interested.



That Luscombe Sedan is still registered to someone in the San Diego area. I don't have

the N registration number at hand but I'll get that too. Vic told me a few years ago

he tracked down the registered owner of that Luscombe Sedan and told him the story.

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:01 am Post subject: Re: GSC props

 	  Ken Potter wrote: 	
		  I can accept the 500 hr IMO, however I still do not think that it applies in my case  ie;  new propellor, as delivered from factory in mid 90's still in box,  blades not attached to hub yet, no torque been applied and stored in a heated shop.  Anyways,  you can't put a price on safety and I'll buy a new prop if I have to and do without something else less critical for a while. 



Ken 	


Ken, Give Rick a call at GSC and get his advice.  I agree with what you say. Inside , climate controlled is likely good for wood as well as the fact if never been tightened down. 



I feel a big contributing factor to the loss of strength of a GSC prop is the user's over tightening them down   under 100 inch/pound is about 8 ft . lbs which is  really  peanuts.  



Then can fail but really they have a great track record. 



I will move this topic to a GSC thread that was just started.

_________________
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
Hundreds of Kitfox Movies
Most viewed Kitfox on youtube
Most popular on youtube
Highest rated on youtube

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:06 am Post subject: Re: GSC props

Paul ,  Any prop can die.  Trust me . !!   No one is immune from a prop failure . IVO WARP NSI GSC  -- I have seen them all. 



Wood props are just as safe as any composite one. 

Look at Gary  Walsh's  NSI prop that separated, what  was the cause ?    certainly not failure of the wood. 



I highly recommend that All airplanes including Kitfox with any engine combo to have one or two safety cables attached to the engine and airframe.  Mine has one attached to 2 points on engine and fished through the firewall and looped around the fuselage .





 	  Paul A. Franz, P.E. wrote: 	
		  On Wed, April 22, 2009 5:35 am, fox5flyer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 This thread seems to have morphed to GSC props.

 Unfortunately, GSC was forced into mandating the 5 year limit.  IMO, that

 prop is no different than the engine that it is attached to.  It requires

 regular maintenance according to manufacturers recommendations.  Even though

 the instructions that come with it are very explicit as to care and

 maintenance, it just doesn't seem to get done in all cases.



	


I can understand that you can't store a wood prop outside where it is getting wet from

rain and partially drying out continually. But, without the manuals and never having

read them, on the face of things I would be hesitant to get a wood prop because I

don't think I could operate it such that I could always keep it dry and parking the

aircraft mandates a hangar. So if you went on a trip and were weathered in, you'd

likely have to tie-down in the open and the prop could get rain on it for a day. Of

course you could probably devise a prop cover but that might not function perfectly at

the most vulnerable part - the roots. And as Lynn has pointed out, his prop came from

Florida where it had likely exposure to higher humidity so he found it necessary to

re-torque and then it sounded like he wasn't too confident about how long the job

would last.



I think it would be interesting and helpful if someone could post the maintenance

procedures for the GSC and put this required maintenance in proper perspective. As it

is, I don't think I know enough to ever overcome my reluctance to using a wooden

propeller.



In 1949 my uncle had a Luscombe Sedan and it was always hangared and nearly brand new

when on flight about 20 miles from home with a passenger, suddenly the prop separated

and instantly ripped the engine off the firewall. As you can image what this does to

weight and balance. Extreme rear CG. The passenger was in his ever flight too. Enough

of the firewall was ripped off too that you could see through the front by your feet.

Both of them were smoking at the time too - Camels or Lucky Strikes and gasoline was

running out of the header tank probably. My uncle told the passenger to lean forward

as far as he could but the guy was so terrified, he could not. Well, my uncle Vic

landed that tail dragger on a trail in the sage brush about 10 miles northwest of

Othello, Washington.  My uncle had crushed the lit cigarette into the palm of his hand

and that was the only injury. Within about a week, a sheep herder found the engine

remains within a couple miles of the landing spot with one blade still attached. The

other blade was found within a quarter mile too. Maybe less. I can't remember for sure

who determined that it was a faulty wood prop, FAA, engine or prop manufacturer or

Luscombe but it was a fault in the prop. The warranty covered the prop replacement

which was only a small part of the damage. The plane was repaired and my uncle flew it

for another few years until upgrading to a some Cessna tail dragger, I was only a

little kid then so I can't recall which model. It could have been a 140 but I think

bigger.



So, the entire time of my youth I always thought how strange that someone would even

attempt to make a propeller that turned 2700 rpm out of wood. So, for me to ever

overcome my innate fear of wooden propellers, I would have to see the written

operating and maintenance procedures to determine if I really believed I could live up

to the letter of direction they state. I am so prejudiced that when I discovered a

Jabiru engine required a wood prop, that terminated my interest in Jabiru.



My 90 year old uncle Vic, stopped flying 3 years ago because he could not renew his

medical since he had a pacemaker installed so he sold his C-210. My brother took Vic

up in a Citabria a couple weeks ago and my uncle's flying skills seemed as sharp as

ever. Vic landed it perfectly on their farm strip after a sight seeing trip that

included the vicinity of that forced landing in 1949.



My uncle Vic was a bit of a camera bug at the time too and he got quite a bunch of

photos of the landing scene and later, the discovered engine. These were of course,

monochrome (black and white) photos but real nice. I think he's since scanned all the

negatives and has high them in fairly high quality. I will ask for them and post them

if anyone is interested.



That Luscombe Sedan is still registered to someone in the San Diego area. I don't have

the N registration number at hand but I'll get that too. Vic told me a few years ago

he tracked down the registered owner of that Luscombe Sedan and told him the story.

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:08 am Post subject: Re: GSC props

Wooden props are very fragile, much more fragile than modern composite propellers.  I have experience with this first hand, when a nylon strap gently BOUNCED off the tip of my wood prop, and split it to the hub.  Keep in mind, it just bounced on the tip, there was NO catching of the strip on the prop, or mark on the prop leading edge, it just gently bounced off the tip...  After this incident, I researched this issue and found very similar stories of it taking incredibly LITTLE to break or explode a wooden prop. There are so many stories and examples of this I can not even start to cover it here, just do your research, there is plenty of information on this if anyone really wants to know...   Maybe one can fly safely with a fragile GSC prop, but why would anyone want such a weak and fragile propeller that you needed to maintain and be ultra careful with and  an expert at maintaining it ?



There are plenty of better props out there, that are safer, and don't require perfect and expert maintenance and care all the time.   So while we know you CAN use a GSC wood prop for many hours without a problem, its not what you SHOULD be using...

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:37 am Post subject: Re: GSC props

Ok here we go again , Mike mouthing off,  please post some facts to back up what you say .  You see I post facts , pictures , videos to help others.   Can you ? 





 	  Quote: 	
		  There are so many stories and examples of this I can not even start to cover it here, just do your research, there is plenty of information on this if anyone really wants to know... Maybe one can fly safely with a fragile GSC prop, but why would anyone want such a weak and fragile propeller that you needed to maintain and be ultra careful with and an expert at maintaining it ?

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:56 am Post subject: Re: GSC props

 	  dave wrote: 	
		  Ok here we go again , Mike mouthing off,  please post some facts to back up what you say .  You see I post facts , pictures , videos to help others.   Can you ? 





 	  Quote: 	
		  There are so many stories and examples of this I can not even start to cover it here, just do your research, there is plenty of information on this if anyone really wants to know... Maybe one can fly safely with a fragile GSC prop, but why would anyone want such a weak and fragile propeller that you needed to maintain and be ultra careful with and an expert at maintaining it ? 	
	


sooo Mike posts a first hand account of what happened to him, yet you say it is just mouthing off.  so his factual experience differs from yours and is therefore hogwash?  c'mon Dave, others besides you fly these planes and props and have different experiences than you have had, but that does not make them BS.



I tried a GSC prop on mine and could not get that bugger to track to save my life.



I have also burned up 4 motors on 2 different planes on the IVO IFA (actually the windings are breaking off at the armature).  IVO claims that my brother and I are the only two people that this is happening to.  So just because IVO says this cant be happening does not mean it is not really, in real world, real time happening to me.  I just had to order another one after 22 hrs of flight time.  If this one goes, I will be in the market for another prop.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:20 am Post subject: GSC props

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Paul ,  Any prop can die.  Trust me . !!   No one is immune from a prop 

 failure . IVO WARP NSI GSC  -- I have seen them all.


	


This is truly amazing.  Seen them all?  Must be a joke?

Deke

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:39 am Post subject: GSC props

On Wed, April 22, 2009 9:38 am, Ken Potter wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I can accept the 500 hr IMO, however I still do not think that it applies in my case

 ie;  new propellor, as delivered from factory in mid 90's still in box,  blades not

 attached to hub yet, no torque been applied and stored in a heated shop.  Anyways,

 you can't put a price on safety and I'll buy a new prop if I have to and do without

 something else less critical for a while.


	


Ken,



I think you meant 5 years, not 500 hours as that wouldn't make sense. I suspect there

are exceptions to hard and fast rules that apply to you.



Before you abandon the use of your GSC wood prop, you should phone them or write them

or both. I found this:



"ATTENTION: All owners of the GSC ground adjustable hardwood propellers, we, the

manufacturer of the GSC propeller are imposing a TBO time on all our wooden ground

adjustable propellers of either 5 years or 500 hours, whichever comes first.

We recommend that when this time has been reached, your propeller be returned to our

factory for airworthiness inspection. Please contact our warehouse to get necessary

information on shipping method required to return goods to us."



GSC SYSTEMS

6255 OKANAGAN LANDING ROAD

VERNON, BC VIH IMS CANADA

(250) 549-3772 PH

(250) 549-3769 FAX



That's from a 2001 posting so I don't know if the phone numbers are correct but to me

it wouldn't seem sensible to have to send it in for inspection if it has never been

used and always stored in warm dry conditions.



Call them, my guess is you're good to go. Worst case would be that they exercise a CYA

policy and insist on an inspection. Of course, nothing would have changed just by

being stored for over 5 years in acceptable storage conditions.



<http://www.ultralightnews.ca/advisories1/propadvisory.htm>



OK, I'd say the phone number is fine but the address and the FAX have changed. Here's

their web site and from reviewing it, they might want to see the prop to verify that

it still is in balance and that it hasn't warped. Here's their website and what should

be current contact information;



<http://www.ultralightprops.com/contact.htm>



Address:  	        Tel: (250) 549-3772

#8 2440B 14th Avenue    Fax: (250) 275-8441

Vernon, BC  V1T 8C1     E-MAIL: info(at)ultralightprops.com



-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell



The biggest difference between Republicans and Democrats is the

spelling.

-- Anonymous



"President Obama inherited from George Bush a $500 billion -- and

growing -- annual budget deficit and a ballooning $11 trillion national

debt. Obama nevertheless promised us an entirely new national health

plan, bigger entitlements in education and a vast new cap-and-trade

energy program. But there is a problem in paying for the $3.5 trillion

in budgetary expenditures that Obama has called for in the coming

fiscal year. Proposed vast additional taxes on the 'rich' still won't

be enough to avoid tripling the present budget deficit -- and putting

us on schedule over the next decade to add another $9 trillion to the

existing national debt. During the Clinton years, we got higher taxes

but eventually balanced budgets. During the Bush administration, we got

lower taxes but spiraling deficits. But now during the era of Obama, we

apparently will get the worst of both worlds -- higher taxes than under

Clinton and higher deficits than under Bush. In other words, we --

through our government -- are spending money that we don't have."

-- Hoover Institution historian Victor Davis Hanson



The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings.

The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.

-- Winston Churchill

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

eskflyer

Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 44
Location: AK

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:52 am Post subject: Re: GSC props

I had a first hand experience with a GSC prop. I had a bird strike , all it did was to put a little ding in the inlaid leading edge. It made more of a mess and noise when it hit the top of the windscreen . I landed and checked the prop and flew it for many more hours . I would fly another wood prop in a heartbeat . Anything can and will break . Maintain it the best you can and enjoy life . Deal with it when or if it happens. 



Dave just because you are a jealous jerk does not meen that all the rest of us have no experience at things we do and see. And no i do not have to prove it because i know this is what happened to me . 



We know you dont have to prove  all the bullshit crap you do . OHHH yeah its really cool to run your prop and engine threw a mudpuddle , that takes a genius to to be a dumbass. Look at what happens to seaplane props and what water does to them . 



Yep Dave your a ACE in my book .

 Sorry folks just tired of the bullshit from Dave

John Perry

_________________
FLY FUN FLY LOW FLY SLOW
John Perry
Kitfox 2 N718PD
582 cbox 2:62-1 IVO IFA
1220 Full Lotus

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:53 am Post subject: GSC props

Mike,



Was this with the Kolb.  Pushers are notorious for shedding prop blades with 

stuff inadvertently trying to pass through the prop disc.  I think they are 

fundamentally bad designs and can't be fixed.   Do a little research there 

are reports everywhere, I don't have time to go throuth it right now, but my 

advice would be to keep the prop and dump the airplane.



Lowell



---

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:59 am Post subject: Re: GSC props

 	  lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: 	
		  Mike,



  Pushers are notorious for shedding prop blades with 

stuff inadvertently trying to pass through the prop disc.  I think they are 

fundamentally bad designs and can't be fixed.   Do a little research there 

are reports everywhere, I don't have time to go throuth it right now, but my 

advice would be to keep the prop and dump the airplane.



Lowell



--- 	




 Lowell,



You are correct, many many things pass through the props in pushers, one has to be very careful to make sure this does not happen, and then sometimes it still does     I am not one of these people that says " What I fly is best " just because that is what have and what I am used to.  I do continual research on this stuff, and do the work required to study and to learn new things in aviation.  When I find something new that I did not know before, I embrace it instead of getting all defensive and posting bad information.



As far as taking your advice, I have already taken it, I have my new  Kitfox 7 SS kit sitting at home just waiting to be built  



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: GSC props

 	  dave wrote: 	
		  Paul ,  Any prop can die.  Trust me . !!   No one is immune from a prop failure . IVO WARP NSI GSC  -- I have seen them all. 

	




Any prop can fail, but that does NOT make them all equal.  Just because there have been failures of all propeller types, that does not mean they are all as LIKELY to fail or resist damage.  The fact that you imply that  different props are equal just because any of them can fail is nothing short of absurd.

 

 	  dave wrote: 	
		  



Wood props are just as safe as any composite one. 

	




NOT TRUE,



I have had both wooden props and various composite props, and I have learned from the experience.  My wooden prop split to the hub over a nylon strap BOUNCING off the tip, not catching, no engine stoppage, not even a pull on the strap, I just saw the strap bounce lightly off the tip of the disc and shut down to secure the strap.  I was in disbelief that such a non event had broken my prop so severely.  



Then we have this Report by ANOTHER PERSON here on the list:



 	  Rick Neilson wrote: 	
		  



I did fly a wood prop on my direct drive VW powered MKIIIC and turned one prop into tooth picks when the prop struck a tree branch were it was about 1/8 inch dia. For that reason I will never own a pusher with a wood prop. 



Rick Neilsen 

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC 



	


After this incident I took the time to research this issue of wood props and found plenty of evidence to show that wood props are substandard performance wise, and overly fragile.  There is a really good reason certified planes manufacturers have quit using wooden props for the last 50 years.  



Another personal experience is that I had a Lockwood manifold pressure dual guage set go through my Warp Drive prop at full power while synching the carbs.  This aluminum, brass, and steel set was cut to little pieces by the prop, but the prop stayed together.  I did have to replace one blade, but the prop did not explode like a wood prop or GSC would most definitely have.   



And most importantly, I do not have a prop that is so fragile, and prone to coming apart that I have to continually re torque it and baby it just to keep it safe, and then still have replace it every 5 years.  In the end, modern composite props are vastly superior to wood, it just takes people a long time to break old habits and embrace new technology sometimes.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: GSC props

Wood is a proven material, and has many good qualities. It makes

an excellent propellor. In fact the 240B's, we had to stop using the

composite warp drives, and switch to wood because they were

cracking. I've never had a problem with my wood Sensenich, it's nice and

smooth, and after  6 years I'm still happy with it. Oh, and what's this

about changing it after 5 ...?



Jeff

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:16 pm Post subject: GSC props

Jeff, that was just the limits that GSC imposed on their props before 

inspection overhaul.  5 years, 500 hours, or 50k miles, etc.  There have 

been reports that GSC blades that, even though unused, were stored in their 

original boxes for many years and because of positioning, humidity, or 

possibly heat, there were cases of blades being warped and causing them to 

be out of track.  I read somewhere that when the prop is received from the 

vendor (GSC) it should immediately be assembled then hung on a wall 

somewhere with stable temperatures and humidity until it is time to install 

on the engine.  I don't know how much of this is valid, but sounded good.



It is my understanding that wood, in many cases, especially with the big 

bore long stroke engines, is often the best prop because of it's ability to 

absorb tortional vibration shocks without damage to the prop or crank parts. 

Warp, and other props using Warp blades, even though very tough, is very 

rigid and doesn't have this ability to absorb the shock of the pulses.  Ever 

notice the difference between a wood framing hammer and one with a 

fiberglass handle?  Big difference.  The one with the fiberglass handle will 

transmit shock right up your forearm where the wooden one absorbs most of 

it.  Another case is splitting mauls, of which I have a lifetime behind. 

Thinking I would save on handles, I bought a Monster Maul which is a 10lb 

head welded to an all steel handle.  The plus side is that it will never 

break or crack.  The down side is that it transmits an enormous amount of 

shock up through that steel handle, something the wood handle mauls don't 

do.  Wears me out.  I keep meaning to put that thing in my next garage sale. 

Might even give it away.



Now that I'm finished digressing, what does that say for aluminum?  Lots of 

aluminum props out there on big bores.  Beyond me.  Whatever works best, I 

guess.



And as for wood props being fragile?  I don't really think so.  Maybe 

compared to aluminum and glass, but if anything in many cases they can 

absorb a lot of punishment without damage.  My friend has a 1939 Luscombe 

with the original prop still on it.  Every few years he strips it, gives it 

a new finish, and flies away.  I believe what is best is to use what the 

engine manufacturer recommends then maintain it accordingly.

Windy and rotten for the 4th day in a row!



Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 405+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Wood is a proven material, and has many good qualities. It makes

 an excellent propellor. In fact the 240B's, we had to stop using the

 composite warp drives, and switch to wood because they were

 cracking. I've never had a problem with my wood Sensenich, it's nice and

 smooth, and after  6 years I'm still happy with it. Oh, and what's this

 about changing it after 5 ...?



 Jeff

peteohms

Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 224
Location: Leander, TX

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:53 pm Post subject: GSC props

For what it's worth hear's an actual GSC incident that I experienced.



I bought my Kitfox III in Buckeye, AZ with a fresh annual done by Murle 

Williams. A few days later whan I flew it home, I was late leaving Buckeye 

and flew for nearly 6 hrs but had to land in Deming, NM because sun was 

about to set.  The next morning while doing a walk around on my Kitfox III 

,before the final leg home, I found that the blades were loose (3 blade 

ground adjustable GSC prop).   One blade was so loose I turned it by hand. 

Now I had turned the prop by hand on each blade before leaving Buckeye and 

did not notice any looseness.  And since it had a fresh annual I presume 

Murle checked it also during the annual.



Now to be fair to GSC, the prop was 17 years old and had about 330 hours on 

it.  The last time it was tightened it used up all of the adjustment as the 

2 halves were in contact.  GSC would probably have correctly stated that 

this prop was "used up" had they been asked.  I did not like how hard they 

were to adjust so I bought an IVO.  It is a snap to adjust.



My advice is to send the prop to GSC to have it checked, just to be sure. 

Also ask them if the proper torque has changed.  Let us know how it works 

out.



Happy flying.



Pete

Kitfox III SN 1000 912 IVO Grove

_________________
Pete
Leander, TX
Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:49 pm Post subject: GSC props

Pete - if the two hub halves were in contact your man who did the annual did

it wrong, and should never have turned the airplane over to you to fly. In

fairness I'm sure you didn't know to check that but he should have. GSC

states clearly the minimum gap allowed and being in "contact" is dangerous

and negligent on the inspector's part, no fault of the props or

manufacturer.



That's why I trained to be a certified inspector - who you gonna trust with

your life up there 



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger

Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: GSC props

Exactly my point about GSC, when a prop needs so much attention, and is so likely to become out of tolerance to be safe, it is substandard.   You can always use the excuse, " It was not adjusted properly ".    There is no reason to fly with props that have to be constantly checked, and adjusted, and that are very likely to be hazardous because of some unrealistic and constantly changing  tolerances.



Modern, well designed props are trouble free, you set them up properly and they just work.  You don't find people making excuses for Warp Drives and other props that they came loose because of this or that they were not torqued every other flight, or that the humidity messed them up. etc. etc.   When a prop fails, or is likely to create an unsafe situation, the excuse does not matter.   A modern well designed prop will just work.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:25 pm Post subject: GSC props

Mike,



I fly and enjoy my GSC prop, and respect the maintenance that is required

for it to deliver the attributes I expect of it and have come to appreciate.

I feel it is important, and appropriate, to share this with any list member

that wants to share this information.



We have heard, and I respect, your opinion on this subject. Please allow

others to express their opinions as well without shooting down every post

that is not in agreement with yours.



Thank you,



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger

Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop

Wrightsville Pa

 



--

eskflyer

Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 44
Location: AK

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: GSC props

Mike , we can still buy wood props for our GA aircraft and there is nothing wrong with using them . They take up much of the vibration and wood basically has a infinite life unless damaged . Yes we even have to re-torque our wood props. humidity and heat are the two factors here .

Take care  everyone fly safe 



JOhn

_________________
FLY FUN FLY LOW FLY SLOW
John Perry
Kitfox 2 N718PD
582 cbox 2:62-1 IVO IFA
1220 Full Lotus

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:24 am Post subject: Re: GSC props

 	  eskflyer wrote: 	
		  



Take care  everyone fly safe 



JOhn 	




There are several examples on and posts by people in this forum alone of very small objects that have caused wood propellers to shatter and come apart.  There are even more examples of many GSC prop failures out there on the Internet.   This alone should be cause enough for anyone considering the purchase of a prop to go out there and do their research before making a choice.   I know some people don't want to know the truth or hear that they may have made a bad choice in propellers, but there are just as many that will want this information, so here it is.



Here is a report where proper installation and inspection still resulted in a GSC prop throwing a blade



http://www.auf.asn.au/airworthiness/gscbladeshed2.pdf



" The propeller had been removed and refitted some 12 hours before the incident, had been inspected and assessed taking account of the occurrences mentioned above and was considered to be in excellent condition. It had operated at 5,800 (engine) RPM for about 2 minutes

immediately before the failure."



http://www.ultralightnews.com/safety_bulletins/gsc_servicebulletin.htm

 

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=23515



http://www.ultralightnews.ca/advisories1/propadvisory.htm



http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/1995/a95q0115/a95q0115.asp





Given this information, those that really do want the safest and best prop possible will probably do some research for themselves and educate themselves on this matter before making a purchase.   For those that have already bought wood props and don't want to hear that they may not have made the best choice, that is fine.  I am not trying to change your minds, you have a right to fly with whatever you like.  I am sure there are plenty of people out there that will appreciate this information.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum