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Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints

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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:05 pm Post subject: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints

I did the deed.  To illustrate the discontinuity of the tubing in the 

Kitfox, I took two sections I cut out of a couple of projects and attached 

filled balloons to the ends of the tubes.  The yellow tubing came from an 

elevator cut to fit a trim tab.  The blue tubing came from the hat rack area 

where that tubing was cut out to in an attempt to

improve the shoulder harness attachment points.



In the yellow tubing section, the long tube is the trailing edge with the 

tube rib the closed end tube.  In the blue tubing section, what appears to 

be the long section is actually two tubes butted to the short piece which is 

continuous.



Lowell



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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:40 pm Post subject: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints

For what it's worth, when I removed my horizontal stab supports (so I  

could weld on the larger 1/4" rod ends) and cut one end off, I could  

smell the line oil (tube seal) inside the tubing.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 635.2 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying

do not archive



On Apr 28, 2009, at 7:03 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I did the deed.  To illustrate the discontinuity of the tubing in  

 the Kitfox, I took two sections I cut out of a couple of projects  

 and attached filled balloons to the ends of the tubes.  The yellow  

 tubing came from an elevator cut to fit a trim tab.  The blue  

 tubing came from the hat rack area where that tubing was cut out to  

 in an attempt to

 improve the shoulder harness attachment points.



 In the yellow tubing section, the long tube is the trailing edge  

 with the tube rib the closed end tube.  In the blue tubing section,  

 what appears to be the long section is actually two tubes butted to  

 the short piece which is continuous.



 Lowell

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:18 pm Post subject: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints

Looking at the big blob of beading on the plue piece it doesn't surprise me

that it is closed off inside the weld.  The yellow one is a lot harder to

tell and I'm actually surprised that it is just but welded without first

being cut out and shaped.

Thanks Lowell

Noel



Rhyme not intended



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:33 pm Post subject: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints

Maybe Kitfox LLC inhibits the frames at the factory.  John would know for

sure!



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:40 pm Post subject: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints

Usually I give up by now, but here goes.  Noel, lets say you are fabricating 

a fuselage on a jig.  First the longerons on one side, top and bottom, are 

clamped into the jig.  then the vertical stringers and angle supports are 

trimmed, as you discribe, to mate with each other without overlapping 

anywhere in a nice tidy cluster.  What treatement do you give the longeron 

to ensure internal continuity.  Do you notch it as you did the stringers or 

do you drill a hole at the center of the cluster?



As you all recall, this thread started with advice on introducing a sealant 

into the Kitfox tube interiors as a corrosion preventive.



With regard to the first paragraph, Kitfox did notch the tubing to get a 

close joint, but they did not drill or otherwise provide for continuity 

throughout the tubing interiors.  And my opinion is this.  I would not fly 

in an airplane that would have the number of holes drilled that would be 

necessary to protect every tube interior throughout the airplane, especially 

if the holes were drilled by an amateur builder.



Lowell



---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:32 pm Post subject: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints

I would probably go along with you on that...  but aren't the frames made at

a professional company by experts with many years of training and

experience?  I watched a certified welder do a cluster joint one time.  I

figure it took him several hours to get ready to do the actual welding.  I

actually turned down a job e did for our AMO at one time.   The joint was

full of pin holes and slag all over the place.  Well everyone can have a bad

day.  Just haven't yet figured out which one of us was having the hard day.

Him for the poor welding job or me for having to bring it to his attention.

His second try was excellent.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:05 am Post subject: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints

Slag? On a MIG or TIG weld? Surely he did not use a (slag-generating)  

stick (arc) welder?



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 635.2 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Apr 28, 2009, at 11:28 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I would probably go along with you on that...  but aren't the  

 frames made at

 a professional company by experts with many years of training and

 experience?  I watched a certified welder do a cluster joint one  

 time.  I

 figure it took him several hours to get ready to do the actual  

 welding.  I

 actually turned down a job e did for our AMO at one time.   The  

 joint was

 full of pin holes and slag all over the place.  Well everyone can  

 have a bad

 day.  Just haven't yet figured out which one of us was having the  

 hard day.

 Him for the poor welding job or me for having to bring it to his  

 attention.

 His second try was excellent.



 Noel

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:16 am Post subject: Re: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints

You can get slag inclusions on both mig and tig.  Slag is defined as a non-metallic inclusion in the weldement.  If the filler wire is not cleaned properly, you can indeed leave nice little slag inclusions in the form of silicon.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:49 am Post subject: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints

Hell no it was just an off day for him.  He let a job go that he knew he

never should have.  I was just unlucky enough to find it and report it ot my

boss who ordered it redone.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:51 am Post subject: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints

Lynn:  



I forgot to mention that it was a TIG weld.  Stick and MIG are not used in

certified welds here.  I think there is some applications for Oxy/Fuel

welding. (a.k.a. oxy acetlyne)



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:35 am Post subject: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints

Hmmmm.....I was thinking only of the thick crap that is left after an  

arc job. Maybe my welds are so clean, there is no slag to speak  

of....and I'll sell a bottle of snake oil to go along with that  

excuse. : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 635.2 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying

do not archive



On Apr 29, 2009, at 9:16 AM, akflyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 You can get slag inclusions on both mig and tig.  Slag is defined  

 as a non-metallic inclusion in the weldement.  If the filler wire  

 is not cleaned properly, you can indeed leave nice little slag  

 inclusions in the form of silicon.



 --------

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 Leonard Perry aka SNAKE

 Soldotna AK

 Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV

 582 IVO IFA

 Full Lotus 1260

 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009



 hander outer of humorless darwin awards





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 41893#241893

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:37 am Post subject: Corrosion Prevention Kitfox welded tube joints

I wasn't even thinking of it being a certified weld...I guess I  

didn't read the thing thoroughly enough...my bad.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 635.2 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying

do not archive



On Apr 29, 2009, at 9:51 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:



[quote] 



 Lynn:



 I forgot to mention that it was a TIG weld.  Stick and MIG are not  

 used in

 certified welds here.  I think there is some applications for Oxy/Fuel

 welding. (a.k.a. oxy acetlyne)



 Noel



 --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

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