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Ken

Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Posts: 15

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:30 am Post subject: BSR Chute

All of the discussion about 601-XL wing break-ups leads me to consider a BSR chute.  Is there an aspect to such an event the might make the device non-deployable or ineffective?

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:37 am Post subject: Re: BSR Chute

The French plane that overstressed the wing was saved by a BRS chute.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:54 am Post subject: BSR Chute

there was another 601 that had an engine problem.  You can read the story here:



http://brsparachutes.com/files/Documents/Press%20Releases/PR%20Saves%20212-213.pdf

 



Alberto Martin

www.iberplanes.es

Igualada - Barcelona - Spain



----------------------------------------------

Zodiac 601 XL Builder

Serial: 6-7011



Tail Kit: Finished

 Wings: Not Started

Fuselage: Ordered

Engine: Jabiru 3300

  [quote][b]

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:07 pm Post subject: BSR Chute

My guess is that ballistic chutes are considerably less than 100 

percent dependable.



The chute and associated stuff can fail to operate properly.



The attachment to our experimental airframes might just destroy the 

airframe rather than saving it.



If deployed close to the ground, it might not have a chance to do its 

job before the plane meets the ground.



And lastly, just for reference, I had a long discussion with a friend 

who flew fighters for the USAF for 20 years.  He bailed out once from 

high altitude in an RB-66 over the Florida Everglades.  His back was 

broken and he spent the next 6 months in the hospital.  That was 

considered a successful ejection.  The other guy in the same plane 

died before reaching the ground.  In the end, he said the USAF 

considers a 50 percent fatality rate to be the expected result from 

an ejection.



'nuff said.



Paul

XL grounded

do not archive

At 12:30 PM 4/27/2009, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  All of the discussion about 601-XL wing break-ups leads me to 

consider a BSR chute.  Is there an aspect to such an event the might 

make the device non-deployable or ineffective?

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:29 pm Post subject: BSR Chute

Murphy Law...

 Do not archive.



--- On Mon, 4/27/09, Ken <hror1(at)pld.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Ken <hror1(at)pld.com>

Subject: BSR Chute

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 3:30 PM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ken" <hror1(at)pld.com>



All of the discussion about 601-XL wing break-ups leads me to consider a BSR

chute.  Is there an aspect to such an event the might make the device

non-deployable or ineffective?





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 41509#241509





	
	


           [quote][b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: BSR Chute

Thank God we aren't talking about putting ejection seats in 601s. There is a huge difference between shooting the chute out with a rocket and shooting the pilot out with one.



Since Paul isn't reading my posts I will post this on ejections seats in my ongoing fight against incorrect data.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0IBT/is_9_57/ai_78413230/



During an ejection, the limits of performance of humans and their equipment can be approached; those failures are closely studied. The overall ACES II ejection survival rate from Aug 1978 to Sep 2000 was 92 percent (see Table 1). During this period, a total of 362 ejections occurred in five different types of ACES II seat-equipped aircraft. Accompanying figures depict A-10 Thunderbolt II, F-15 Eagle and F-16 Fighting Falcon lifetime ejection history totals, as well as fatalities where ejections were, and were not, attempted. Success rates are different for each aircraft, primarily because of the different mission profiles flown in those aircraft. Aircraft with specific mission profiles that have them flying faster and closer to the ground will likely have more mishaps.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

cookwithgas

Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 159

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: BSR Chute

Ken:



I put one in my airplane that I fly frequently.  I am betting my life that it will work just fine.  I also bet my life that the airplane is safe.  So far it has been a good bet and I heck of a lot of fun also.  You can see some of the details here:



http://www.cooknwithgas.com/BRS.html



and the finished result here:



http://www.cooknwithgas.com/Feb_2008_Taxiing.JPG



I don't have any videos of the BRS being deployed but I have several videos of the airplane flying on Youtube here:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyqOL9x6W2s

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eitHTi4iVzo



I told myself I wouldn't come back to this list but I strayed this afternoon to find a good question like yours.  



I hope this helps.  Gotta run,



Scott Laughlin

Omaha

601XL/Corvair

www.cooknwithgas.com

barcusc(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:24 pm Post subject: BSR Chute

Check out the BRS Systems website, it list deployment of their parachutes, 

type of aircraft and the altitude the chute was deployed at, it has been a 

while since I checked their site but I believe they listed about 200 saves. 

In regards to possible damage to the aircraft, that may be a moot point, I 

am assuming a crash was inevitable or the chute would not have been 

deployed.



Clyde Barcus

601 XL

---

JohnDRead(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:01 pm Post subject: BSR Chute

The primary purpose of BRS chutes is to save the passengers, the airframe  is secondary. do not archive.

  

 John  Read

CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300



Phone: 303-648-3261

Fax:  303-648-3262

Cell: 719-494-4567   

  



 An Excellx1221621499x1201450105/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=AprilExcScore428NO62>See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!

  [quote][b]

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: BSR Chute

I am going with a BRS parachute in deference to my non-pilot wife, who asked, "what if you have a heart attack or something?  What happens to me?".



I'd made the BRS decision before the accidents started, and I've never understood the controversy that some pilots seem to have on this subject.  Probably similar to motorcycle helmets, or when cars first came out with seat belts.



If I ever need to pull that handle, it would have to be a last-ditch life or death situation.  Even if the BRS only had a 50% chance of working, 50% is a lot better than 0%.  In a situation like that, you don't care about the airplane anymore. 



Pictures of my installation are here:  http://picasaweb.google.com/Patrick.Hoyt/BRS#



- Pat

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:11 pm Post subject: BSR Chute

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 05:55:29PM -0700, PatrickW wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I am going with a BRS parachute in deference to my non-pilot wife, who

 asked, "what if you have a heart attack or something?  What happens to

 me?".


	


There's an easier way: teach her to fly!  That's what I'm doing with my

roommate.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I'd made the BRS decision before the accidents started, and I've never

 understood the controversy that some pilots seem to have on this subject. 

 Probably similar to motorcycle helmets, or when cars first came out with

 seat belts.


	


I think the BRS is fine if you've got 40 pounds of useful load to devote to

it. My Zodiac was heavy enough as it is.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI      http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: BSR Chute

To BRS or not is a personal decision.



As mentioned giving up 40 lbs especially if the 40 lbs is in the back of the plane is a problem for me.



There is also the theory that the money spent of the chute and the repacking of the chute would be better spent on additional training.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:10 pm Post subject: BSR Chute

Aviation Consumer also argued for spending a given dollar on more training

over (say) a traffic warning device. But if you read through the kind of

incidents where a BRS was deployed I think you will see that training

wouldn't help in many cases (control failure, spin, hitting a glider tow

rope, engine out over hostile terrain). If I were buying a plane I'd

strongly consider one designed around a BRS (e.g. CTSW or CTLS). But (IMHO)

putting one in a 601LX really limits the utility of the plane due to W&B

issues.



-- Craig



--

cookwithgas

Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 159

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: BSR Chute

Common you guys!  You are killing me with all this BAD INFORMATION!  You guys throw numbers around like you are experts and you don't have a clue!  I don't intend to offend anyone personally but some of you guys need a reality check.  Here's a picture of my BRS pack on a scale:



http://www.cooknwithgas.com/10_28_06_BRS_Weight.JPG



18.8 lbs.  Clearly not 40 lbs in the back of the airplane!  The gold thing is less than a pound and all of the other parts barely weigh 9 lbs. much of it in the front of the airplane.  



This picture has been on my website since October of 2006 as you can see from the file name.  Seriously guys - this list has come to a bunch of guys throwing around numbers and opinions based on NOTHING but speculation and blah blah blah.  Get out there and work on your airplane or go fly it, then come back and report something or ask a valid question.  All this bad info on this list needs to stop.  Some of you guys seem to have to reply to every post even if you have NO IDEA what you are talking about!  Can we use a little restraint here until we have something factual or useful to post?



Sorry for the rant, but I don't see any more posts from the guys that know because they have been chased away by a bunch of Yahoos with nothing better to do but spread bad info.  Most of those guys are too nice to say anything and just fade away for good reason.  I just see the wrong kind of speculation and just plane bad information here anymore.



Have a good evening,



Scott Laughlin

601XL/Corvair

Omaha

challgren(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:48 pm Post subject: BSR Chute

Scott:



I had never really considered a chute until I saw your picture showing  

it weighed 18.8 pounds.  BRS's July 2008 price list shows a 1350  

having BRS system weights from 29 to 34 pounds.  Do you have the  

softpact?



Stan

701/3300

On Apr 28, 2009, at 22:05 , cookwithgas wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 >



 Common you guys!  You are killing me with all this BAD INFORMATION!   

 You guys throw numbers around like you are experts and you don't  

 have a clue!  I don't intend to offend anyone personally but some of  

 you guys need a reality check.  Here's a picture of my BRS pack on a  

 scale:



 http://www.cooknwithgas.com/10_28_06_BRS_Weight.JPG



 18.8 lbs.  Clearly not 40 lbs in the back of the airplane!  The gold  

 thing is less than a pound and all of the other parts barely weigh 9  

 lbs. much of it in the front of the airplane.



 This picture has been on my website since October of 2006 as you can  

 see from the file name.  Seriously guys - this list has come to a  

 bunch of guys throwing around numbers and opinions based on NOTHING  

 but speculation and blah blah blah.  Get out there and work on your  

 airplane or go fly it, then come back and report something or ask a  

 valid question.  All this bad info on this list needs to stop.  Some  

 of you guys seem to have to reply to every post even if you have NO  

 IDEA what you are talking about!  Can we use a little restraint here  

 until we have something factual or useful to post?



 Sorry for the rant, but I don't see any more posts from the guys  

 that know because they have been chased away by a bunch of Yahoos  

 with nothing better to do but spread bad info.  Most of those guys  

 are too nice to say anything and just fade away for good reason.  I  

 just see the wrong kind of speculation and just plane bad  

 information here anymore.



 Have a good evening,



 Scott Laughlin

 601XL/Corvair

 Omaha





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 41842#241842

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:18 pm Post subject: BSR Chute

Ask Steve Weston about the W&B numbers for his Jabiru 3300-powered XL with a

BRS. Those are real numbers (I helped calculate them). One difference

between Steve and Scott's plane is that Scott's has a Corvair hung on the

front which helps counteract the weight of the BRS. Steve added a bracket to

move his battery farther forward from the firewall. I don't know if Steve is

still on this list but he is on the Zenith builders site.



-- Craig



--

Martin Pohl

Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 118
Location: CH-8645 Jona SG, Switzerland

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: BSR Chute

W&B is indeed an issue with a Rotax or Jabiru engine - however, Pat's very nice installation (which seems to be similar to European XLs) eliminates the problem.



I still put my Galaxy GRS-600 softpack in the rear baggage compartement (see: http://www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL/GRS/GRS.html), my space behind the instrument panel is just too limited. However I will use a variable pitch propeller that should balance the C.G. My baggage compartement will be space and weight limited to a space right behind the backrests (and I am happy to have installed the wing lockers, they provide the necessary baggage space and are relieving the stress on the wings at the same time ). 



The reason for a BRS in my XL is not because of the recent incidents, but for other safety considerations (midair collision, engine failure in alpine rough country). I know of the limited reliability of the BRS-systems (e.g. slow or insufficient opening at low speeds), but it might be just another last-chance...



Martin

_________________
Martin Pohl
Zodiac XL QBK
8645 Jona, Switzerland
http://www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL/Main.html

tjennings(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:44 am Post subject: BSR Chute

Also, just out of curiosity, how much did it cost to install the BRS chute?



Cheers,



 - Trevor

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 12:47 AM, Stanley Challgren <challgren(at)mac.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Scott:



 I had never really considered a chute until I saw your picture showing it

 weighed 18.8 pounds.  BRS's July 2008 price list shows a 1350 having BRS

 system weights from 29 to 34 pounds.  Do you have the softpact?



 Stan

 701/3300

 On Apr 28, 2009, at 22:05 , cookwithgas wrote:



> 

>

> Common you guys!  You are killing me with all this BAD INFORMATION!  You

> guys throw numbers around like you are experts and you don't have a clue!  I

> don't intend to offend anyone personally but some of you guys need a reality

> check.  Here's a picture of my BRS pack on a scale:

>

> http://www.cooknwithgas.com/10_28_06_BRS_Weight.JPG

>

> 18.8 lbs.  Clearly not 40 lbs in the back of the airplane!  The gold thing

> is less than a pound and all of the other parts barely weigh 9 lbs. much of

> it in the front of the airplane.

>

> This picture has been on my website since October of 2006 as you can see

> from the file name.  Seriously guys - this list has come to a bunch of guys

> throwing around numbers and opinions based on NOTHING but speculation and

> blah blah blah.  Get out there and work on your airplane or go fly it, then

> come back and report something or ask a valid question.  All this bad info

> on this list needs to stop.  Some of you guys seem to have to reply to every

> post even if you have NO IDEA what you are talking about!  Can we use a

> little restraint here until we have something factual or useful to post?

>

> Sorry for the rant, but I don't see any more posts from the guys that know

> because they have been chased away by a bunch of Yahoos with nothing better

> to do but spread bad info.  Most of those guys are too nice to say anything

> and just fade away for good reason.  I just see the wrong kind of

> speculation and just plane bad information here anymore.

>

> Have a good evening,

>

> Scott Laughlin

> 601XL/Corvair

> Omaha

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 41842#241842

>

>

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:39 am Post subject: BSR Chute

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 09:05:10PM -0700, cookwithgas wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   This picture has been on my website since October of 2006 as you can see

 from the file name.  Seriously guys - this list has come to a bunch of

 guys throwing around numbers and opinions based on NOTHING but speculation

 and blah blah blah.


	


The 40 pound difference I've been citing was a number I got straight from

AMD. *I* am not the one who said the weight was all in the back, either. If

I'm speculating, I'll say so. I wasn't. I was going on what I believed to be

reliable information.



The way to counter bad information is to post reliable information, not to

simply flame people for saying what they believe to be true.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI      http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:16 am Post subject: Re: BSR Chute

Here's where I go the weight. http://brsparachutes.com/files/Documents/Sales%20Retail%20Price%20List%20July%2015%202008.pdf



The 3 models that match the 601's weight are between 29 and 34 pounds according to this. Add to that the weight of the fittings and 40 lbs sounds about right.



Which model do you have Scott?

 	  cookwithgas wrote: 	
		  Common you guys!  You are killing me with all this BAD INFORMATION!

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

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