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First engine run; what is normal?

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frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:49 pm Post subject: First engine run; what is normal?

Hi everyone,



Today I started the engine for the first time. It started right up!



However, not being used to a Rotax 914, it is difficult to tell what

engine behaviour is normal. There are two things that make me wonder if

I fall into the normal range:



1) How rough is normal?

Ok, I'm spoiled. Have flown most of my hours in a Cessna with diesel

engine. 4-in-row, 3-blade propeller. These things run as smooth as a car.

With the Rotax, it is quite different. Vibrations are eminent. Have

pneumatically balanced the carbs, checked everything, but can't get idle

reliable and smooth below 1500 rpm. RPM is unstable (varies in a band of

about 100 RPM above 1500 rpm, more below that), runs relatively smooth

between 2200 rpm and 3500 rpm, around 4000 rpm vibrations increase,

didn't go any higher than that. Below 1500 rpm idle is unstable, and

below 1400 rpm the rpm suddenly drops sharply. Had it for a short while

running at 800 rpm, but, let's say, 1000 rpm is pretty much impossible

to get, most of the time it just dies if I try to get below 1400 rpm.

The vibration is not that bad, it is not as if the machine is going to

fall apart, but more like you would expect from a motorbike or so, well,

maybe slightly rougher. I have a two blade prop (Woodcomp SR3000/2W),

maybe it is normal for a two blade to give some vibrations? Haven't

balanced it yet, but it is supposed to be balanced from the factory. Is

this to be expected?



Fuel pressure is 4 psi, RPM drop with both magneto's about 150 rpm

(although difficult to establish because the rpm varies by itself).

All 4 EGT's are equal. Checked the plugs, they seem normal as well.

Front ones appear to receive a slightly richer mixture (see some carbon

deposites, most likely from starting up with choke), the bottom plugs

show slight traces of oil on the outer ring. All show a pretty healthy

tan color on the nose.



Is this RPM instability and roughness normal?



The engine has not been used since delivery around september. Could it

be that I need to clean the carbs? Another possibility (not yet checked)

is that I need to change the idle mixture (maybe somewhat enrichen it)?



Oh, I did check the lifters, they appear to be functional, with no air

trapped inside.



2) How much heat is normal?

I knew in advance that the combination Europa-Rotax is somewhat of a

challenge. Have made some cowling changes with the expectation not to

experience any heat problems. Alas, this thing heats up quickly. About

10 minutes before the coolant (50/50) gets to 130 degrees Celcius.

Cylinder heads (measured with a ring sensor below the cylinder head

bolts) about 10 degrees lower (?).

In fact, I didn't succeed in getting an oil temperature up to the green

zone (about 90 degrees) without getting into the red zone with the

coolant. I doubt whether it will be possible to do some serious power

testing this way.



Is this normal? How long should it be possible to taxi/idle before the

temps go to high? How should one test higher power settings on the ground?



Get about 750 Celcius on the EGT's at 3500 rpm (fronts a little bit

lower than the rears). Is that normal?



Have had the prop on fine with all tests.



Any indications of what is normal are appreciated.



Thanks,

-- 

Frans Veldman

kevann(at)gotsky.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:54 pm Post subject: First engine run; what is normal?

Hi Frans



My 914 idles smoothly at 1800-2000 and I have it set idle as low as 1500, 

which can be helpful in slowing during landing. I try not to idle 

continuously below 1800 because it is a little less than smooth and that 

roughness is hard on the gearbox. I understand this is normal. When I start 

mine up I do not let it run below 2000rpm to keep it smooth and that is a 

good minimum taxi speed.



I have not adjusted idle mixture. I am going to a 3 day Rotax maintenance 

school next week and hope to learn a lot of this stuff...



My coolant has never gone over about 230 F. I am running Evans, and monitor 

CHT as well as coolant temps which are within 10 F of each other.



My oil temp also stays below about 230 F even in a long climb, but I have 

not flown in really hot summer conditions yet. Cruise shows around 200 F or 

less. Rotax says we should be 250 F max continous I believe.



You may get slightly better cooling on the ground by coarsening your prop to 

push more air though the radiators.



I'm no expert. However I am quite sure that your rough idle at 1500 is 

normal and not good for your engine. You might check the carb balance again 

after all that rough running!



That was cool when it fired right up, eh?



Kevin

914 intercooled, Airmaster prop

---

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:37 pm Post subject: First engine run; what is normal?

Hi Kevin,



 	  Quote: 	
		   My 914 idles smoothly at 1800-2000 and I have it set idle as low as

 1500, which can be helpful in slowing during landing.


	


Ok, apparently I was somewhat mislead by the statement in the Europa

manual, where an idle speed of 1200-1400 rpm was recommended. This

suggested to me that the Rotax should be able to idle reliably within

this range (and probably less reliable at even lower idle speeds) Above

1400 rpm my Rotax idles fine, so this indicates that my engine is not

that bad after all.  Will set the limit to 1500 now, and only use it

for landing, and use higher idles for ground running.



 	  Quote: 	
		   You may get slightly better cooling on the ground by coarsening your

 prop to push more air though the radiators.


	


Ah, ok. That might be helpfull. Have conducted all my tests so far with

the prop on fine. Will try this today.



 	  Quote: 	
		   That was cool when it fired right up, eh?


	


That was a nice milestone indeed! The whole event was uneventfull. 

Nice to finally see all those instruments coming to life, and get some

airflow over the fuselage!



-- 

Frans Veldman

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:54 am Post subject: First engine run; what is normal?

Frans Veldman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  > You may get slightly better cooling on the ground by coarsening your

> prop to push more air though the radiators.

 Ah, ok. That might be helpfull. Have conducted all my tests so far with

 the prop on fine. Will try this today.

Started up today with a cold engine, ambient temperature around 15

degrees Celcius, pop slightly on coarse, ran 2000 rpm until boiling

point. Got 13 minutes out of it...

Is that normal?

The bad thing is that after these 13 minutes I think the oil is still

somewhat too cold to ask for full power...

Hate to think about warmer weather.

I guess I have to modify the cowling, and use the lower part of the

cowling as a ramp for the radiators. This will probably give more drag

in flight, but I think I need to be able to spend more time on the

ground before take off. And being able to conduct a run up would also be

nice.

-- 

Frans Veldman

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:11 am Post subject: First engine run; what is normal?

I have only picked up this discussion at this point. However for what 

it's worth I found that it took about 20 hours of engine running before 

the engine was fully run in. During this time 120 degC was reached 

fairly quickly during full power climbs. Also if you are getting 

coolant overheat with low oil temperatures the most likely culprit is 

air locks in the coolant system. 

Nigel Charles

 	  Quote: 	
		  ----Original Message----

From: frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl

Date: 25/04/2009 11:45 

To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

Subj: Re: First engine run; what is normal?

<frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl>

 	  Quote: 	

Frans Veldman wrote:

>> You may get slightly better cooling on the ground by coarsening 

your

 	  Quote: 	
		  >> prop to push more air though the radiators.

> 

> Ah, ok. That might be helpfull. Have conducted all my tests so far 

with

 	  Quote: 	
		  > the prop on fine. Will try this today.

Started up today with a cold engine, ambient temperature around 15

degrees Celcius, pop slightly on coarse, ran 2000 rpm until boiling

point. Got 13 minutes out of it...

Is that normal?

The bad thing is that after these 13 minutes I think the oil is still

somewhat too cold to ask for full power...

Hate to think about warmer weather.

I guess I have to modify the cowling, and use the lower part of the

cowling as a ramp for the radiators. This will probably give more 

drag

 	  Quote: 	
		  in flight, but I think I need to be able to spend more time on the

ground before take off. And being able to conduct a run up would also 

be

 	  Quote: 	
		  nice.

-- 

Frans Veldman

News, Entertainment, Celebrity Gossip and more - http://www.tiscali.co.uk

____________________________________________________________

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:23 am Post subject: First engine run; what is normal?

  

Hi Frans C

  

 I don't know the 914 C but your coolant temperature seems to indicate a problem. Usually C it is one of the three:

  

 1) You changed the hoses and one or more clamps are not tight under pressure. 

 2)  The filler cap is not fully tightened C maybe a clamp obstructing it.

 3)  Air lock

  

 For carb balancing I used an electronic indicator from a car parts shop. Any uneven combustion will cause vibration with a two-bladed prop. At least that was my experience. The prop is already factory balanced C so don't mess with that.

  

 Karl

 



  

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Fri C 24 Apr 2009 22:47:49 +0200

 From: frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: First engine run; what is normal?

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: Frans Veldman <frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl>

 

 Hi everyone C

 

 Today I started the engine for the first time. It started right up!

 

 However C not being used to a Rotax 914 C it is difficult to tell what

 engine behaviour is normal. There are two things that make me wonder if

 I fall into the normal range:

 

 1) How rough is normal?

 Ok C I'm spoiled. Have flown most of my hours in a Cessna with diesel

 engine. 4-in-row C 3-blade propeller. These things run as smooth as a car.

 With the Rotax C it is quite different. Vibrations are eminent. Have

 pneumatically balanced the carbs C checked everything C but can't get idle

 reliable and smooth below 1500 rpm. RPM is unstable (varies in a band of

 about 100 RPM above 1500 rpm C more below that) C runs relatively smooth

 between 2200 rpm and 3500 rpm C around 4000 rpm vibrations increase C

 didn't go any higher than that. Below 1500 rpm idle is unstable C and

 below 1400 rpm the rpm suddenly drops sharply. Had it for a short while

 running at 800 rpm C but C let's say C 1000 rpm is pretty much impossible

 to get C most of the time it just dies if I try to get below 1400 rpm.

 The vibration is not that bad C it is not as if the machine is going to

 fall apart C but more like you would expect from a motorbike or so C well C

 maybe slightly rougher. I have a two blade prop (Woodcomp SR3000/2W) C

 maybe it is normal for a two blade to give some vibrations? Haven't

 balanced it yet C but it is supposed to be balanced from the factory. Is

 this to be expected?

 

 Fuel pressure is 4 psi C RPM drop with both magneto's about 150 rpm

 (although difficult to establish because the rpm varies by itself).

 All 4 EGT's are equal. Checked the plugs C they seem normal as well.

 Front ones appear to receive a slightly richer mixture (see some carbon

 deposites C most likely from starting up with choke) C the bottom plugs

 show slight traces of oil on the outer ring. All show a pretty healthy

 tan color on the nose.

 

 Is this RPM instability and roughness normal?

 

 The engine has not been used since delivery around september. Could it

 be that I need to clean the carbs? Another possibility (not yet checked)

 is that I need to change the idle mixture (maybe somewhat enrichen it)?

 

 Oh C I did check the lifters C they appear to be functional C with no air

 trapped inside.

 

 2) How much heat is normal?

 I knew in advance that the combination Europa-Rotax is somewhat of a

 challenge. Have made some cowling changes with the expectation not to

 experience any heat problems. Alas C this thing heats up quickly. About

 10 minutes before the coolant (50/50) gets to 130 degrees Celcius.

 Cylinder heads (measured with a ring sensor below the cylinder head

 bolts) about 10 degrees lower (?).

 In fact C I didn't succeed in getting an oil temperature up to the green

 zone (about 90 degrees) without getting into the red zone with the

 coolant. I doubt whether it will be possible to do some serious power

 testing this way.

 

 Is this normal? How long should it be possible to taxi/idle before the

 temps go to high? How should one test higher power settings on the ground?

 

 Get about 750 Celcius on the EGT's at 3500 rpm (fronts a little bit

 lower than the rears). Is that normal?

 

 Have had the prop on fine with all tests.

 

 Any indications of what is normal are appreciated.

 

 Thanks C

 -- 

 Frans Veldman

 

 

&==========
	


[quote] 

 

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

mikenjulie.parkin(at)btin
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:14 am Post subject: First engine run; what is normal?

Frans,



A new engine can be quite tight and needs a little running before the operating temperatures will come down.  For ground runs you might find it advantageous to run it with the top and bottom cowlings removed for a while.

By the way have you configured the oil cooler directly behind the radiator  -- if so,  lowering the oil cooler in the duct can help a great deal.  It made quite a difference on my 914.  Also, don't run the engine below 2000 rpm unless you have to, the engine will run rough and it accelerates the wear on the gearbox.

I recommend once you have everything sorted out, carb balance etc - dynamically balance the propeller.  It makes quite a difference.  The Kingairs I flew as part of my job (when I worked) were always cracking exhaust stubs until the company bought a balancer and started a prop balancing programme.  I borrowed the balancer from work and balanced my Airmaster.....made it run really smooth.



Regards,



Mike



--

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:47 am Post subject: First engine run; what is normal?

 	  Quote: 	
		   A new engine can be quite tight and needs a little running before the

 operating temperatures will come down.  For ground runs you might

 find it advantageous to run it with the top and bottom cowlings

 removed for a while.


	


That certainly helps, but of course the ultimate goal is to being able

to run it in flight configuration. I know that a new engine runs a bit

hotter, but on the other hand, the current environment temperatures are

much lower than what I hope to be able to cope with.



 	  Quote: 	
		   By the way have you configured the oil cooler

 directly behind the radiator  -- if so,  lowering the oil cooler in

 the duct can help a great deal.


	


Well, the oil temperature is the only temperature that never went into

the upper half of the green arc. In fact, it is difficult to get it into

the normal operating range before the coolant gets into the red zone. It

is the coolant temperature that makes a challenge.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Also, don't run the engine below 2000 rpm unless you have to,


	


Ok, got that part, today I did all test around 2000 - 2200 rpm.



I had to draw the conclusion that my cooling setup, optimised for low

drag in flight, was not working well enough on the ground. I had the

radiators setup as a "stand alone" bay, with a small opening followed by

a diffuser. Theoretically this should give minimal cooling drag, and

plenty of cooling... while flying. Some testing revealed that there was

not much airflow during idle on the ground though.

So I literally took the saw and sawed off the radiator opening,

diffuser, and left the bare radiator extending under the cowl. The lower

cowling by itself is formed as a nice ramp, so the idea was that this

would produce more air flow.



Further testing confirmed this. With an engine already slightly warm

from the previous test, an ambiant temperature that had increased by 10

degrees Celcius compared to this morning's test, I still got 23 minutes

until the boiling point. Quite an improvement!



So, I'm working now on cleaning up the mess, constructing a new

diffuser, and using the lower cowling as a ramp.



 	  Quote: 	
		    I recommend once you have everything sorted out, carb balance etc -

 dynamically balance the propeller.


	


Yes, I'm going to do that. Thanks for confirming the idea that this

might be worthwile!



 	  Quote: 	
		   Kingairs I flew as part of my job (when I worked) were always

 cracking exhaust stubs until the company bought a balancer and

 started a prop balancing programme.  I borrowed the balancer from

 work and balanced my Airmaster.....made it run really smooth.


	


This sounds really encouraging!



Frans

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:55 am Post subject: First engine run; what is normal?

Hi Karl,



 	  Quote: 	
		   I don't know the 914, but your coolant temperature seems to indicate a

 problem. Usually, it is one of the three:


	


I think the problem is the radiator setup, combined with a new, tight,

engine. So far, could not find any fault in the cooling system. CHT's (I

measure four) are equal too. With a small change in the cooling setup I

got already far better results.



 	  Quote: 	
		   For carb balancing I used an electronic indicator from a car parts shop.


	


I used a manifold pressure gauge from a Cessna Skymaster with a front

and rear engine. Has dual needles. Works nicely to the level of just a

half inch Hg. Does it help to go more precise than that?



Also, today it didn't seem as bad as yesterday. It looks like the wind

has some effect on it, which I can imagine with a 2 bladed prop. Or

maybe I'm getting used to it. 



Frans

justin(at)systemwise.co.u
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:01 am Post subject: First engine run; what is normal?

HI there,

  

 This one struck a chord with me. 

 Although I have a Rotax 912S and Classic cowl I had much the same cooling problems to start with..

  

 I agree that it did take 15 hours or so before I acheived total temp stability at the normal levels.

 I ran the engine "on and off" for two hours with both cowls off befoer the first flight to get the temps down to manageable proportions.

 During the flight testing period I experienced too much coolant cooling and not enough oil cooling.

 The oil radiator being behind the left hand radiator on mine.

 I saw a Europa at a fly-in with some of the cooling vanes removed between the water tubes in the radiator just in front of the oil cooler.

 As I was experiencing too much radiator and not enough oil cooling this seemed a great idea. I started to remove some of the vanes, very carefully so as not to break the water tubes in the radiator. Using trial and error I gradually increasing it until eventually about half the area of the oil cooler was exposed directly to the airflow which was passing between the water tubes in the radiator. Each time I increased it the oil cooling improved. I did stagger the holes an left an inch  or so every so often so that the water tubes were still well supported.

 I now have good oil cooling and still have to blank off some of the opposite radiator on days below 15 degrees C to keep the coolant form getting to cold in the cruise. In really cold weather, common in Scotland, I have to blank off the lower parts of both radiators. I do this with Velcro attached to pads at the edge of the radiator.

 In the heat of the mediterranen sun (say 36 degrees C) I have no difficulty in taxiing for an unlimited period. I set the Airmaster to "Manual" fully coarse and 1800 rpm and it keeps it steady well within limits. Do remember to set the Airmaster back to "Auto" and "T/O" before taking off. I forgot this once and it wasn't a good experience.

 I do however still have oil temp problems if I climb more than 4000ft at full throttle.

 I forgot to say I have cowl flaps modelled on Cessna 182 set into the bottom cowling. During the cruise I can adjust the temps with these to the optimum but if I leave them closed the only penalty is a reduced height of climb without ovrheating. Cowl flaps also serve to keep things warm on long fast controlled descents which I use all the time. 

 I still watch the temps as a matter of course but that is normal on an aircraft with such a speed range as the Europa.

  

 Safe flying to all in the new season.

 Justin

  

 Justin Kennedy 

 G-ZTED Europa Classic Monowheel Rotax 912S Airmaster with Warp drive blades

 [quote][b]

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:34 am Post subject: First engine run; what is normal?

Hi Justin,



 	  Quote: 	
		   This one struck a chord with me.

 Although I have a Rotax 912S and Classic cowl I had much the same

 cooling problems to start with..

  

 I agree that it did take 15 hours or so before I acheived total temp

 stability at the normal levels.


	


I have now about 2 hours on the engine, and it is starting to cool down

considerably. Can't tell of course whether this is due to some cooling

modifications I made, or because the engine is now a little less tight.



Also, the engine now runs much more smoothly, very noticable from the

inside and the outside. I didn't change anything that could have caused

this. My assumption is that the "tightness" was not evenly spread among

the cylinders. It feels normal now, but the first hour or so you

wouldn't believe how much it vibrated, shaked, etc. even on higher rpm's.



I'm happy now that the engine starts to behave more like I hopened for

when I bought it.



 	  Quote: 	
		   During the flight testing period I experienced too much coolant cooling

 and not enough oil cooling.


	


Haven't got to this part yet. Managed to get the water boiling during

idle, while the oil was still around 50 Celcius! It is now becoming

better but the oil temperature is still way behind the water temperature.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I saw a Europa at a fly-in with some of the cooling vanes removed

 between the water tubes in the radiator just in front of the oil cooler.


	


Good idea! I will keep this in mind in case I'm going to experience the

same oil cooling problems.



 	  Quote: 	
		   In the heat of the mediterranen sun (say 36 degrees C) I have no

 difficulty in taxiing for an unlimited period. I set the Airmaster to

 "Manual" fully coarse and 1800 rpm and it keeps it steady well within

 limits. Do remember to set the Airmaster back to "Auto" and "T/O" before

 taking off. I forgot this once and it wasn't a good experience.


	


The good news with the Woodcomp with large twist is that it is more

difficult to forget this.  It becomes quite noisy and rough if set to

coarse while still on the ground. Presumably the inner part with very

much twist gets a so large angle of attack that it stalls.



Thanks for your comments!



P.S. I think it would have been wise if either Rotax or Europa advises

in their manuals about the cooling problems with a new engine. For a

newbe like me it was a real brainbreaker to deal with an engine that

overheats within 8 minutes before the oil even starts to warm up a bit...



-- 



Frans Veldman

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:19 am Post subject: First engine run; what is normal?

Frans Veldman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi Justin,

 I have now about 2 hours on the engine, and it is starting to cool down

 considerably. Can't tell of course whether this is due to some cooling

 modifications I made, or because the engine is now a little less tight.

   

Frans
	


Engine "break in" as they say in the US, should be done at relatively 

high power settings. 60% minimum.

Running at low power can cause glazing of cylinders and the piston rings 

won't polish squarely unless they are properly loaded. My understanding 

is that if loading on the rings reverses they will wear barrel shaped 

and start pumping oil.

A long delivery flight on a new Cessna at best economy speeds usually 

resulted in a new airplane with an engine that burned oil.

Graham

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:55 am Post subject: First engine run; what is normal?

Graham Singleton wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  > I have now about 2 hours on the engine, and it is starting to cool down

> considerably. Can't tell of course whether this is due to some cooling

> modifications I made, or because the engine is now a little less tight.

>   

 Frans

 Engine "break in" as they say in the US, should be done at relatively

 high power settings. 60% minimum.

 Running at low power can cause glazing of cylinders and the piston rings

 won't polish squarely unless they are properly loaded. My understanding

 is that if loading on the rings reverses they will wear barrel shaped

 and start pumping oil.

I agree, but the problem is: HOW?

My understanding is that one should not load the engine before the oil

gets at least 70 degrees Celcius. Before that time though, the water

boiled already. The vibrations were also not really inviting to try some

higher power settings.

Now the engine starts to run much cooler, and runs smoothly, I plan to

do a few sessions with higher power settings. For breaking in, of

course, but I also won't let anyone test-fly this thing before I have

some confidence that the engine will be able to complete its take-off

run without boiling. 

-- 

Frans Veldman

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:12 am Post subject: First engine run; what is normal?

Frans C



 



Your cooling problems at startup are not at all typical. As far as I know the engines are run in at the factory C and there is no recommended 'run-in' period C like there used to be many years ago for cars.



You may well have had an airlock somewhere which cleared itself.



 



Karl

 



[quote] Date: Wed C 29 Apr 2009 11:30:42 +0200

 From: frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: First engine run; what is normal?

 

 

 

 Hi Justin C

 

 > This one struck a chord with me.

 > Although I have a Rotax 912S and Classic cowl I had much the same

 > cooling problems to start with..

 > 

 > I agree that it did take 15 hours or so before I acheived total temp

 > stability at the normal levels.

 

 I have now about 2 hours on the engine C and it is starting to cool down

 considerably. Can't tell of course whether this is due to some cooling

 modifications I made C or because the engine is now a little less tight.

 

 Also C the engine now runs much more smoothly C very noticable from the

 inside and the outside. I didn't change anything that could have caused

 this. My assumption is that the "tightness" was not evenly spread among

 the cylinders. It feels normal now C but the first hour or so you

 wouldn't believe how much it vibrated C shaked C etc. even on higher rpm's.

 

 I'm happy now that the engine starts to behave more like I hopened for

 when I bought it.

 

 > During the flight testing period I experienced too much coolant cooling

 > and not enough oil cooling.

 

 Haven't got to this part yet. Managed to get the water boiling during

 idle C while the oil was still around 50 Celcius! It is now becoming

 better but the oil temperature is still way behind the water temperature.

 

 > I saw a Europa at a fly-in with some of the cooling vanes removed

 > between the water tubes in the radiator just in front of the oil cooler

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:44 am Post subject: First engine run; what is normal?

Karl,



 	  Quote: 	
		   Your cooling problems at startup are not at all typical.


	


I got some emails (on the list and privately) from people who have

experienced similar problems. So it is not really a-typical either.

Maybe it is a matter of luck how tight a newly produced engine is.



 	  Quote: 	
		   As far as I

 know the engines are run in at the factory, and there is no recommended

 'run-in' period, like there used to be many years ago for cars.


	


Of course engines are now produced with much smaller tolerances,

minimizing the run-in period, but still some run-in remains to be done.

As far as I know the engines are just "test-run" at the factory, only

for a very short time, and not for the time required to perform a full

run in.



 	  Quote: 	
		   You may well have had an airlock somewhere which cleared itself.


	


If that were true, coolant should have dropped somewhat, but that is not

the case. Also, all cylinders ran at the same CHT, so they either should

have had all four a similar airlock, or the airlock should have been in

the radiator or collection tank, which is quite unlikely as well. Then

the vibration, that cleared itself as well. Everything suggests that

there was a run in problem involved. An air lock could of course have

contributed to it as well.



BTW, yesterday I implemented your nose wheel mod. Needed considerable

efforts to get the original tube out (heating and pressing), but once

that was done, everything assembled nicely together. Only that nylon

stuff is not easy to work with, but I managed to drill a 1" hole right

in the middle of it, and sawed it of squarely. Thanks for a bright idea!



-- 

Frans Veldman

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:55 am Post subject: First engine run; what is normal?

Hi Frans & All,



Regarding the factory run in,  I seem to recall that when I checked the log in the TCU it had nearly 5 hours on it, and something like 30 minutes in boost, but given that it was over 4 years ago and I have had many rum and coke's since I can't be sure.

 

I did quite a bit of moving around the airport taxi ways before my first flight with the cowling off, maybe for an hour  and I think this is the reason why I didn't see any over heating.  It was also in March which is typically cooler here.

 

Subsequent to that I have always had cooling problems.  If I taxi out to the hold short line and ATC has me holding I will see CHT temperatures close to red line after about 20 minutes of engine running.  By 20 minutes I mean that this includes from first engine start.  On two occasions at Sun n' fun I had long taxi's and I had to shut the engine down to stop the CHT's hitting red line.

 

During straight and level flight I see the CHT's about right and the oil temps on the cool side.  During climb the oil temperatures will red line.  On the occasions I fly IFR and file for an altitude of anything above 10'000 I have to step climb it.

 

My cooling experiences with a 914 haven't been great, in summary the CHT's overheat on the ground, oil overheats in the climb and in general it all runs too cool in cruise.  



My aircraft is currently apart due to having removed the engine for its case fretting problem so I am going to take the opportunity to make some cooling  modifications while it is apart.  I know that this will delay me getting  it back for this flying season, but if I don't deal with it now I will end up putting it off again.  I'll keep you all posted with my results.

 

Paul



  [quote][b]

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:42 am Post subject: First engine run; what is normal?

  

Frans C

  

 I am glad to hear that everything is falling into place nicely. You will be flying then this summer ?

 About the run-in question: maybe the guys who went on the Rotax course could shed some light on it. I understand that an airlock would be near the radiator or pump.

 I wonder why the nosewheel shaft was so tight C unless it was secured with loctite.

  

 Cheers C    Karl

  

  

  

 



  

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Wed C 29 Apr 2009 13:42:39 +0200

 From: frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: First engine run; what is normal?

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: Frans Veldman <frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl>

 

 Karl C

 

 > Your cooling problems at startup are not at all typical.

 

 I got some emails (on the list and privately) from people who have

 experienced similar problems. So it is not really a-typical either.

 Maybe it is a matter of luck how tight a newly produced engine is.

 

 > As far as I

 > know the engines are run in at the factory C and there is no recommended

 > 'run-in' period C like there used to be many years ago for cars.

 

 Of course engines are now produced with much smaller tolerances C

 minimizing the run-in period C but still some run-in remains to be done.

 As far as I know the engines are just "test-run" at the factory C only

 for a very short time C and not for the time required to perform a full

 run in.

 

 > You may well have had an airlock somewhere which cleared itself.

 

 If that were true C coolant should have dropped somewhat C but that is not

 the case. Also C all cylinders ran at the same CHT C so they either should

 have had all four a similar airlock C or the airlock should have been in

 the radiator or collection tank C which is quite unlikely as well. Then

 the vibration C that cleared itself as well. Everything suggests that

 there was a run in problem involved. An air lock could of course have

 contributed to it as well.

 

 BTW C yesterday I implemented your nose wheel mod. Needed considerable

 efforts to get the original tube out (heating and pressing) C but once

 that was done C everything assembled nicely together. Only that nylon

 stuff is not easy to work with C but I managed to drill a 1" hole right

 in the middle of it C and sawed it of squarely. Thanks for a bright idea!

 

&= Archive Search & Download C 7-Day Browse C Chat C FAQ C
	


&g====

[quote] 

 

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:50 am Post subject: First engine run; what is normal?

Karl Heindl wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I am glad to hear that everything is falling into place nicely. You will be flying then this summer ?


	


That is quite optimistic.  But let's say I hope to be flying before the

end of this year.



 	  Quote: 	
		   About the run-in question: maybe the guys who went on the Rotax course could shed some light on it. I understand that an airlock would be near the radiator or pump.


	


Oh, I forgot to mention that I have a coolant temperature indicator as

well. The sensor is positioned between the top tank and the radiator.

It indicated high temperatures so at least coolant must have been found

its way from the cylinder heads to the sensor.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I wonder why the nosewheel shaft was so tight, unless it was secured with loctite.


	


I could not find any traces of sticky substances. Also, the new shaft

was as difficult to get in. Actually, I planned for having it

considerably deeper into the fork than the original, but I gave up when

it was about 5mm further than the original, because I could hammer what

I want, but it didn't want to go any further when the fork was cooling down.



Cheers,

Frans

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