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Solid State gyros. WAS: Trutrak

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Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:52 pm Post subject: Solid State gyros. WAS: Trutrak

I just "googled" Solid State Gyro and came up with an interesting site:



http://www.w3mh.co.uk/articles/html/csm7_8.htm



Note that it is for RC helicopters but, I believe, it's the same cheap 

solid state gyro used in the TruTrak. The article confirms my 

observation that the response time is extremely high. A downside seems 

to be that it is temperature sensitive.

In any case, I will never use the TruTrak to fly IMC, but have it as an 

extra safety device if say, I meet a low cloud edge and have to keep 

out of a spin while I do a 180 turn to get out of it. In Norway, we fly 

often in deep valleys with steep mountain sides. We are told to always 

be aware to fly on the weather side of the valley and not the lee side, 

and be ready to make a 180 toward the wind, if needed.



Cheers,

Michel

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

jareds(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:40 am Post subject: Solid State gyros. WAS: Trutrak

While VP of EAA in DC area we brought in a mfr of a Palm type system 

that used the solid state gyro chip used inexpensively in the automotive 

industry to Onstar help in the event of a rollover.  I have not seen any 

other uses of this but am very interested in finding an inexpensive 

attitude gyro to replace my falcon guage unit that the mfr wont' warranty. 



If anyone has run across anything to use for basic VFR that would be great.



Michel Verheughe wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



I just "googled" Solid State Gyro and came up with an interesting site:



http://www.w3mh.co.uk/articles/html/csm7_8.htm



Note that it is for RC helicopters but, I believe, it's the same cheap 

solid state gyro used in the TruTrak. The article confirms my 

observation that the response time is extremely high. A downside seems 

to be that it is temperature sensitive.

In any case, I will never use the TruTrak to fly IMC, but have it as an 

extra safety device if say, I meet a low cloud edge and have to keep 

out of a spin while I do a 180 turn to get out of it. In Norway, we fly 

often in deep valleys with steep mountain sides. We are told to always 

be aware to fly on the weather side of the valley and not the lee side, 

and be ready to make a 180 toward the wind, if needed.



Cheers,

Michel

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject: Solid State gyros. WAS: Trutrak

I think this is a subject the helo modelers could

address well.  The stabilization system they use is

very light, takes little power and should be fairly

competive price wize.  Anyone out there got a handle

on this?  Or south of the equator



Kurt S.



--- jareds <jareds(at)verizon.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   While VP of EAA in DC area we brought in a mfr of a

 Palm type system 

 that used the solid state gyro chip used

 inexpensively in the automotive 

 industry to Onstar help in the event of a rollover. 

 I have not seen any 

 other uses of this but am very interested in finding

 an inexpensive 

 attitude gyro to replace my falcon guage unit that

 the mfr wont' warranty. 

 

 If anyone has run across anything to use for basic

 VFR that would be great.

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:31 am Post subject: Solid State gyros. WAS: Trutrak

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: kurt schrader [smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com]

 I think this is a subject the helo modelers could

 address well.  The stabilization system they use is

 very light, takes little power and should be fairly

 competive price wize.


	


I have a hunch that this is what's happening with the TruTrak, Kurt. I think their indicator uses the same solid state gyro as the helo modeler guys. Which makes sense since TruTrak is offering a cheap non-certified autopilot system.



Cheers,

Michel



PS: How's your Kitfox flying coming along?

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

morid(at)northland.lib.mi
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:50 am Post subject: Solid State gyros. WAS: Trutrak

TruTrak has been in the auto pilot business for quite some time and only

relatively recently started producing the AH and TC units to make their APs

a complete package.

On that note, I finally flew again after 4 months.  I made several mods over

the winter and was dying to check them out, specifically the TruTrak AH.  I

was very surprised at how well it worked, especially the quickness of its

reaction time.  I interfaced it through my Garmin 196 so it also gives track

information.  I haven't done any hood time with it yet, but I suspect it'll

be just fine for that.

I'll see if I can dig up something that explains how it works.

Deke



 	  Quote: 	
		   > From: kurt schrader [smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com]

 > I think this is a subject the helo modelers could

 > address well.  The stabilization system they use is

 > very light, takes little power and should be fairly

 > competive price wize.



 I have a hunch that this is what's happening with the TruTrak, Kurt. I

think their indicator uses the same solid state gyro as the helo modeler
	


guys. Which makes sense since TruTrak is offering a cheap non-certified

autopilot system.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Cheers,

 Michel



 PS: How's your Kitfox flying coming along?

mscotter

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 49
Location: Winston-Salem, NC

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:33 am Post subject: Solid State gyros. WAS: Trutrak

Hello Kurt (and everyone else), I am an RC heli pilot and will try to add what I can to the subject, although I'm not sure what your particular questions are.

Yes, the gyros we use have come a long way and are very precise.  Most people in the heli end of the rc world say that the advent of the gyro and the computerised transmitter has revolutionized the way we fly our machines.  But I digress...

Since I'm not sure what you're looking for, I'll try to give a general overview of how we use them.

In the world of rc helis, it is pretty much a given that everyone is flying with a gyro on the tail servo to stabilize the ship in yaw.  This makes it incredibly easier to fly, as without it you would have to make a change in tail rotor pitch for every change in throttle, every cyclic application, every slight bit of breeze, etc.  With the gyro on the tail, the nose stays locked in and stays wherever I have it pointed until I command a change in direction by applying some rudder (antitorque for you helo guys).  There's generally two modes in our gyros:  "rate" mode and "heading hold" mode.  These involve a different control algorithm, but the bottom line is that everybody runs in heading hold mode, as it does just that:  holds your last heading until you ask for a change.  I can be hovering with a direct crosswind and the gyro will keep the nose pointed exactly where I leave it even though the crosswind is pushing the machine sideways down the flightline.  To give an example 

 of how fast reacting the gyros are these days I will have to tell you about the servos they use, since that is what is driving any yaw change and is the rate-limiting factor in response time.  Tail servos have become somewhat specialized these days, to the extent that Futaba sells their gyros with a special servo as a package.  These servos are rated for speed in terms of the time it takes to sweep through 60 degrees of travel, and this time is on the order of 0.06 to 0.10 seconds.

Let me give you an example of how good some of these are.  In the world of rc heli aerobatics (yes, we can do aerobatics, and it would boggle your mind to see how agile the helis are compared to fixed wing), one of the more difficult ends of the hobby is learning backwards flight, both upright and inverted.  Anyway, imagine how difficult it might be to get the chopper flying along at 40 mph backward and keep the tail centered.  Todays gyros and servos handle it well.

The gyro is plugged in between the receiver and the tail servo, so that when I put in a command from the transmitter, I am actually sending the command for a specific rate of yaw to the gyro, and it outputs a signal to the servo to give me the desired yaw.  As for price, expect $150-$350, depending on the level of performance you are looking for.  These systems run on 4.8V battery packs, although some can handle up to 6.0V, and current draw is in the milliamp range.  These are entirely solid state, there is no spinning mass or moving parts per se.  



Feel free to fire away with any questions.

Mark Scott

Elkton, MD  USA



-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com> 



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I think this is a subject the helo modelers could 

 address well. The stabilization system they use is 

 very light, takes little power and should be fairly 

 competive price wize. Anyone out there got a handle 

 on this? Or south of the equator 

 

 Kurt S. 


	


Hello Kurt (and everyone else), I am an RC heli pilot and will try to add what I can to the subject, although I'm not sure what your particular questions are.

Yes, the gyros we use have come a long way and are very precise. Most people in the heli end of the rc world say that the advent of the gyro and the computerised transmitter has revolutionized the way we fly our machines. But I digress...

Since I'm not sure what you're looking for, I'll try to give a general overview of how we use them.

In the world of rc helis, it is pretty much a given that everyone is flying with a gyro on the tail servo to stabilize the ship in yaw. This makes it incredibly easier to fly, as without it you would have to make a change in tail rotor pitch for every change in throttle, every cyclic application, every slight bit of breeze, etc. With the gyro on the tail, the nose stays locked in and stays wherever I have it pointed until I command a change in direction by applying some rudder (antitorque for you helo guys). There's generally two modes in our gyros: "rate" mode and "heading hold" mode. These involve a different control algorithm, but the bottom line is that everybody runs in heading hold mode, as it does just that: holds your last heading until you ask for a change. I can be hovering with a directcrosswind and the gyro will keep the nose pointed exactly where I leave it even though the crosswind is pushing the machine sidew

 ays down the flightline. To give an example of how fast reacting the gyros are these days I will have to tell you about the servos they use, since that is what is driving any yaw change and is the rate-limiting factor in response time. Tail servos have become somewhat specialized these days, to the extent that Futaba sells their gyros with a special servo as a package. These servos are rated for speed in terms of the time it takes to sweep through 60 degrees of travel, and this time is on the order of 0.06 to 0.10 seconds.

Let me give you an example of how good some of these are. In the world of rc heli aerobatics (yes, we can do aerobatics, and it would boggle your mind to see how agile the helis are compared to fixed wing), one of the more difficult ends of the hobby is learning backwards flight, both upright and inverted. Anyway, imagine how difficult it might be to get the chopper flying along at 40 mph backward and keep the tail centered. Todays gyros and servos handle it well.

The gyro is plugged in between the receiver and the tail servo, so that when I put in a command from the transmitter, I am actually sending the command for a specific rate of yaw to the gyro, and it outputs a signal to the servo to give me the desired yaw. Asfor price, expect $150-$350, depending on the level of performance you are looking for. These systems run on 4.8V battery packs, although some can handle up to 6.0V, and current draw is in the milliamp range. These are entirely solid state, there is no spinning mass or moving parts per se. 



Feel free to fire away with any questions.

Mark Scott

Elkton, MD USA



-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: kurt schrader smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com 



 -- Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <SMOKEY_BEAR_40220(at)YAHOO.COM>

 

 I think this is a subject the helo modelers could 

 address well. The stabilization system they use is 

 very light, takes little power and should be fairly 

 competive price wize. Anyone out there got a handle 

 on this? Or south of the equator 

 

 Kurt S.

_________________
Mark Scott
Winston-Salem, NC

alnanarthur(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:49 am Post subject: Solid State gyros. WAS: Trutrak

Hi  All,

I have been  Googling around a bit, and I  believe the the use of the  

word "gyro" is  being misused for these devices.

It appears to me that they use micro-accelerometers to sense  

acceleration, then integrate to get rate, then integrate again  to  

get position.  If you use a three axis version of this you can   

"almost"  simulate the action of a gyro.

Copied from  the following website:    http://www.xbow.com/ 

General_info/gyro_guide.htm#background

The Crossbow Solid-State Gyro

Crossbow has been developing and selling low cost solid-state gyros  

that measure Roll, Pitch, and Heading using MEMS technology in  

commercial, industrial and aerospace markets since 1998. The Crossbow  

Solid State Gyro, known in our product lingo as an Attitude-Heading  

Reference System, or AHRS, uses a 3-axis accelerometer and a 3-axis  

rate sensor to make a complete measurement of the dynamics of your  

system. The addition of a 3-axis magnetometer inside the Crossbow  

AHRS allows it to make a true measurement of magnetic heading without  

an external flux valve. The Crossbow AHRS is a solid-state equivalent  

of a vertical gyro/artificial horizon display combined with a  

directional gyro and flux valve. The Crossbow AHRS units are low  

power (< 0.3A), reliable (> 20,000 hr MTBF) and accurate (better than  

2 degrees in roll and pitch). The AHRS400CC, shown in figure 2, is  

ideal for driving the AI and DG displays in uncertified applications.  

It is a standard in the guidance and control of unmanned aircraft,  

and has flown in numerous aircraft under varied conditions.

On Mar 30, 2006, at 3:27 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

> From: kurt schrader [smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com]

> I think this is a subject the helo modelers could

> address well.  The stabilization system they use is

> very light, takes little power and should be fairly

> competive price wize.

 I have a hunch that this is what's happening with the TruTrak,  

 Kurt. I think their indicator uses the same solid state gyro as the  

 helo modeler guys. Which makes sense since TruTrak is offering a  

 cheap non-certified autopilot system.

 Cheers,

 Michel

 PS: How's your Kitfox flying coming along?

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:14 am Post subject: Solid State gyros. WAS: Trutrak

Probably right about TruTrak Michel.



My Fox Flying is NA since October.  Totally unsat

situation.  



My nearest entertainment is being currently surrounded

by agents talking about small arms/drug intradiction

and politics as I type this.  Really! 



Kurt S.



Do not archive



--- Michel Verheughe <michel(at)online.no> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I have a hunch that this is what's happening with

 the TruTrak, Kurt. I think their indicator uses the

 same solid state gyro as the helo modeler guys.

 Which makes sense since TruTrak is offering a cheap

 non-certified autopilot system.

 

 Cheers,

 Michel

 

 PS: How's your Kitfox flying coming along?

rjdaugh(at)rapidnet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:13 am Post subject: Solid State gyros. WAS: Trutrak

Mark, 

Wow!



Well written.  I didn't know that capability existed!



Thanks,

Randy



Do not archive.



.           

--

mscotter

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 49
Location: Winston-Salem, NC

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:55 am Post subject: Solid State gyros. WAS: Trutrak

Kurt, what type of 'agents' are you referring to and why are you surrounded by them?

Mark Scott

Elkton, MD  USA



Do not archive 



-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com> 



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Probably right about TruTrak Michel. 

 

 My Fox Flying is NA since October. Totally unsat 

 situation.  

 

 My nearest entertainment is being currently surrounded 

 by agents talking about small arms/drug intradiction 

 and politics as I type this. Really!  

 

 Kurt S. 

 

 Do not archive 


	


Kurt, what type of 'agents' are you referring to and why are you surrounded by them?

Mark Scott

Elkton, MD USA



Do not archive 



-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: kurt schrader smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com 



 -- Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <SMOKEY_BEAR_40220(at)YAHOO.COM>

 

 Probably right about TruTrak Michel. 

 

 My Fox Flying is NA since October. Totally unsat 

 situation.  

 

 My nearest entertainment is being currently surrounded 

 by agents talking about small arms/drug intradiction 

 and politics as I type this. Really!  

 

 Kurt S. 

 

 Do not archive

_________________
Mark Scott
Winston-Salem, NC

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