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Jabiru starter

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jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:09 pm Post subject: Jabiru starter

I am helping a friend put together a power schematic for a Jabiru 3300 for his 601XL.  I have seen several sample schematics that have both a starter solenoid and a starter contactor.  Is this really what is required and if so why ?  Is a starter contactor any different than a battery contactor?

 

 I asked this question on the Aeroelectric forum and got no response. 

  

  Jay Bannister  Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com 

  [quote][b]

SABorns(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:18 pm Post subject: Jabiru starter

Master solenoids are rated for continuous operation. I've always used both  a master and starter solenoid. That is standard practice in certified  aircraft. Aircraft Spruce has on for a reasonable price (p/n 11-03161).  That is what I'm using on my 701.

  

 Steven  Bornstein K8IDN

475 E. North Broadway

Columbus, Ohio 43214

614  263-5819

 Limited Time Offers: Save big on popular laptops at Dell

  [quote][b]

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:33 pm Post subject: Jabiru starter

I’m not certain if we are talking about the same thing. But in my (unflown) design I have a master contactor and a starter contactor. The starter contactor is wired through the master contactor so that if the starter contactor gets stuck (and they do) I can stop the engine from cranking by killing the master. This is lifted from one of the sample designs in the Aeroelectric book. Some starter contactors actually have a separate lug that can feed a light on the panel. If you release the start switch and the light stays on then the starter contactor is stuck (the contacts are probably welded shut).  

   

-- Craig  

     

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jaybannist(at)cs.com

 Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 4:06 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Jabiru starter  

  

   

I am helping a friend put together a power schematic for a Jabiru 3300 for his 601XL.  I have seen several sample schematics that have both a starter solenoid and a starter contactor.  Is this really what is required and if so why ?  Is a starter contactor any different than a battery contactor?

 

 I asked this question on the Aeroelectric forum and got no response. 

 

 Jay Bannister        

  

Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com  

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       [quote][b]

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:33 pm Post subject: Jabiru starter

Steven,

 

 The sample schematics I am talking about have a battery contactor, a starter contactor and a starter solenoid.     Is that what is required ?  I ask, not knowing much about the Jabiru setup, because my 601XL with a Corvair only has a battery cantactor and a starter solenoid, no starter contactor.

 

 Jay Bannister.

 

   

 

   

 

 --

SABorns(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject: Jabiru starter

Jay,

 Isn't a starter solenoid and starter contactor the same thing?  I  wired mine so that 12v from the battery goes to the master solenoid to the  starter solenoid. Your 12v for panel etc. is taken from the switched side of the  master solenoid.

 Steve

  

 Steven  Bornstein K8IDN

475 E. North Broadway

Columbus, Ohio 43214

614  263-5819

 Limited Time Offers: Save big on popular laptops at Dell

  [quote][b]

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:50 pm Post subject: Jabiru starter

The Jabiru engine installation manual doesn’t require this. In fact their sample wiring diagram doesn’t even show a master contactor that I can see. See page 15 of this manual:  

   

http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/manuals/new%20stuff/3300%20Install.pdf  

   

The diagrams you are looking at may be showing the large electromagnet on the starter that moves the fork to engage the small drive gear with the ring gear. That is a “solenoid” too.  

   

Do you have a link to what you are looking at?  

   

-- Craig  

     

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jaybannist(at)cs.com

 Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 4:32 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Jabiru starter  

  

     

Steven,

 

 The sample schematics I am talking about have a battery contactor, a starter contactor and a starter solenoid.     Is that what is required ?  I ask, not knowing much about the Jabiru setup, because my 601XL with a Corvair only has a battery cantactor and a starter solenoid, no starter contactor.

 

 Jay Bannister.  

    

   

    

   

  

--

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:19 pm Post subject: Jabiru starter

Steve,

 

 That's my take, but the sample schematicks I have seen show both a starter solenoid and a starter contactor. I don't know why and that is the reason for the confusion.

 

 Jay  

 

   

 

   

 

 --

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:30 pm Post subject: Jabiru starter

Craig,

 

 On the wiring schematic, I only see a starter solenoid and no starter contactor.  Is the starter solenoid on the starter or is it a totally separate piece of equipment. ?

 

 The sample diagrams I am looking at are in the Aeroelectric Connection manual.

 

 Jay

 

 

 --

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:01 pm Post subject: Jabiru starter

The Jabiru starter “whats-it” is a separate relay. It is supposed to be in the crate with the engine (at least mine was). This document contains a picture:  

   

http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/StarterSolenoidRegulator.PDF  

   

What is the name of the diagram in appendix Z that you are looking at? You can’t go by the diagram number as those change from edition to addition.  

   

I’m looking at figure Z-20 in revision 12: “Small Jabiru System”.  The part labeled “Starter contactor” is the external relay that is only good for intermittent use. The small circle labeled “SOL.” on top of the larger “starter” circle is the electromagnet that mechanically engages the gears. It is integral to the starter  

   

In some automotive starter motors the electromagnet on the starter performs both functions: moving contacts to switch the heavy cranking current and mechanically moving the fork to engage the gears. There will have two terminals: a big stud for the heavy lead from the battery and a smaller stud for the lead from the ignition key. The Jabiru starter is not like this, it has a single heavy lead. So you need an external relay. You can call it a contactor or a solenoid but it is still external. Here is a doc with a picture of the Jabiru starter:  

   

http://www.jabiru.net.au/Service%20Bulletins/Engine%20files/Starter%20Motor%20earth%20Cable_JSL005-1.pdf  

   

I don’t know what the starter on your Corvair looks like but William’s current documentation shows a heavy stud and a flat push=on connector. So the electrical switching of the heavy lead is integral to the starter and no external relay is needed. See here:  

   

http://www.flycorvair.com/starterkit.html  

   

Hope this helps.  

   

-- Craig  

     

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jaybannist(at)cs.com

 Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 5:28 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Jabiru starter  

  

     

   

    

   

    

Craig,

 

 On the wiring schematic, I only see a starter solenoid and no starter contactor.  Is the starter solenoid on the starter or is it a totally separate piece of equipment. ?

 

 The sample diagrams I am looking at are in the Aeroelectric Connection manual.

 

 Jay  

  

--

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:05 pm Post subject: Jabiru starter

Hi Jay,



I wonder if you are getting confused by the two different circuits on 

a starter solenoid.  I don't know the formal terms, but I will call 

them the primary and secondary circuits.  Both circuits start at the 

positive battery terminal and end at the negative battery terminal or "Ground".



The primary circuit is used to activate the starter solenoid.  It is 

a low current circuit - perhaps as high as 10 amps.  It goes from the 

battery to the master contactor (if one is installed) and then to the 

starter switch, starter solenoid, and ground.  This circuit activates 

the starter solenoid when the starter button is pushed.  Normal sized 

wires are used here.  (This circuit should also have a clamping diode 

between the starter solenoid positive terminal and ground to prevent 

high voltage spikes when the starter switch is opened.)



The secondary circuit goes directly from the battery to the starter 

solenoid, the starter motor and ground.  This is the circuit that 

provides energy to the starter motor.  It is the highest current 

circuit in the plane - perhaps over 100 amps.  I suppose this could 

go through the battery contactor or bypass it - it doesn't seem to 

make much difference which way it is done.  This is the circuit that 

has the big fat copper wires all the way from the battery to ground.



In this application on my plane (and most vehicles I have ever seen) 

the battery contactor (if installed) is not really used to control 

the high current path through the starter solenoid.  Rather it is 

used to control the primary circuit for the solenoid which goes 

through the starter button or key switch.



I hope this helps.



Best regards,



Paul

XL grounded



 	  Quote: 	
		  On the wiring schematic, I only see a starter solenoid and no 

starter contactor.  Is the starter solenoid on the starter or is it 

a totally separate piece of equipment. ?

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:18 pm Post subject: Jabiru starter

Craig,

 

 Yes, that really helps.  I've got a clear picture now.  That Z diagram is what confused me.

 

 Thanks - Jay

 

   

 

   

 

 --

ronlee

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 141

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: Jabiru starter

A master contactor can be shut of if an emergency landing is eminent. This shuts the power off at the battery so an electrical fire is dramatically reduced if a crash occurs. The master contactor should be located as near the battery as possible. With the master off there is also no chance of small electrical draws running down the battery while the plane is idle. Also a nice feature of the master contactor is if one forgets to shut something off it will go off when you shut off the master contractor. I have one on my 701 and must say, I wouldn't be without it.

_________________
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona

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