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IFR Certification

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Speedy11(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:23 am Post subject: IFR Certification

This may not be the ideal forum for asking this question, but I'll try it  anyway.

  

 I want to certify my RV-8 for IFR flight.  I know the FARs - I've  looked at them.

  

 I have the Blue Mountain EFIS One as primary instrumentation.

 I have the Blue Mountain EFIS Lite as a backup.

 Both EFISs are on different electrical busses - the main and the standby. -  which can be tied together, if needed.

  

 I asked a local avionics guy about doing a pitot-static and transponder  check for IFR.  He said I would have to install a separate altimeter and  encoder in order to get IFR certification.  The EFIS has a built-in  encoder.

  

 Has anyone else encountered this obstacle?

  

 Stan Sutterfield

  Dell Inspiron 15 Laptop: Now in 6 vibrant colors! Shop Dell's full line of laptops.

  [quote][b]

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:25 am Post subject: IFR Certification

Nonsence!..He'll be  telling you you need a vacuum pump next!

  

 I have a Dynon D100  that does the altitude encoding and there is certainly no requirement for a  second altimeter.

  

 Go  elsewhere..

  

 Frank

 7a IFR



   From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  Speedy11(at)aol.com

Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 10:21  AM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject:  IFR Certification

 

 This may not be the ideal forum for asking this question, but I'll try it  anyway.

  

 I want to certify my RV-8 for IFR flight.  I know the FARs - I've  looked at them.

  

 I have the Blue Mountain EFIS One as primary instrumentation.

 I have the Blue Mountain EFIS Lite as a backup.

 Both EFISs are on different electrical busses - the main and the standby. -  which can be tied together, if needed.

  

 I asked a local avionics guy about doing a pitot-static and transponder  check for IFR.  He said I would have to install a separate altimeter and  encoder in order to get IFR certification.  The EFIS has a built-in  encoder.

  

 Has anyone else encountered this obstacle?

  

 Stan Sutterfield

 

  Dell  Inspiron 15 Laptop: Now in 6 vibrant colors! Shop Dell's full line of  laptops.

[quote]



ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

ics.com

.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

n8zg(at)mchsi.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:40 am Post subject: IFR Certification

Stan â€“   

   

Other folks have had similar issues.Â  Some avionics shops demand TSOd equipment, then canâ€™t quote chapter and verse of the reg that requires it.Â    

   

The technicianâ€™s task is to test the equipment as installed and verify that the data it puts out is accurate within limits, not to pass judgment on your choice of hardware.   

   

Find yourself another shop.Â    

   

Neal  

------------------------    

This may not be the ideal forum for asking this question, but I'll try it anyway.  

    

   

    

I want to certify my RV-8 for IFR flight.  I know the FARs - I've looked at them.  

    

   

    

I have the Blue Mountain EFIS One as primary instrumentation.  

    

I have the Blue Mountain EFIS Lite as a backup.  

    

Both EFISs are on different electrical busses - the main and the standby. - which can be tied together, if needed.  

    

   

    

I asked a local avionics guy about doing a pitot-static and transponder check for IFR.  He said I would have to install a separate altimeter and encoder in order to get IFR certification.  The EFIS has a built-in encoder.  

    

   

    

Has anyone else encountered this obstacle?  

    

   

    

Stan Sutterfield  

  

        [quote][b]

stein(at)steinair.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:27 am Post subject: IFR Certification

This is a rather common occurance by shops  that are either uneducated or inexperienced with experimental aircraft.   Sometimes it's also as a result of naiive FSDO people as well.  Basically  the information provided to you is completely false and not correct.  The  EFIS with it's encoder is just fine....so is it's altimeter - assuming both will  pass an IFR check.  We have our FAA Repair Station Certification and do a  lot of said pitot static and/or transponder checks on both certified and  experimentals.  Should be no problem if you find the right people or right  shop.

  

 Cheers,

 Stein

  

  

 [quote]   -----Original    Message-----

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of    Speedy11(at)aol.com

Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 12:21    PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject:    IFR Certification

   This may not be the ideal forum for asking this question, but I'll try it    anyway.

    

   I want to certify my RV-8 for IFR flight.  I know the FARs - I've    looked at them.

    

   I have the Blue Mountain EFIS One as primary instrumentation.

   I have the Blue Mountain EFIS Lite as a backup.

   Both EFISs are on different electrical busses - the main and the standby.    - which can be tied together, if needed.

    

   I asked a local avionics guy about doing a pitot-static and transponder    check for IFR.  He said I would have to install a separate altimeter and    encoder in order to get IFR certification.  The EFIS has a built-in    encoder.

    

   Has anyone else encountered this obstacle?

    

   Stan Sutterfield

   

      Dell    Inspiron 15 Laptop: Now in 6 vibrant colors! Shop Dell's full line of    laptops.

 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

	
[b]

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:09 am Post subject: IFR Certification

6/11/2009



Hello Stan, You wrote: "This may not be the ideal forum for asking this 

question, but I'll try it anyway."



Actually, this is the ideal forum for asking this question.



This topic has been hashed out extensively on the aeroelectric list. If you 

are interested in better understanding the situation go to the aeroelectric 

archives and search for "encoder approval". You will find many entries under 

this search phrase and there are other search phrases that will also 

generate past postings on this subject.



To save you some time searching take a look at some of the postings in 

August , 2006 with the subject "encoder approval".



You received some good advice in response to your posting copied below --  

just go to another agency capable of performing the required 14 CFR 91.411 

"IFR certification" tests and have them perform the tests and provide the 

paper work. You'll be joining hundreds of other amateur builders happily 

flying IFR with non TSO'd altitude encoders that have passed the required 

tests of 14 CFR 91.411.



'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and 

understand knowledge."



PS: Stein Bruch wrote: " Basically the information provided to you is 

completely false and not correct."



That is not entirely true. In defense of your local avionics guy he is 

taking the same position that FAA headquarters took on the altitude 

encoder -- that is, the altitude encoder must either be TSO'd or be tested 

in accordance with 14 CFR paragraph 91.217 (b). The tests that FAA 

headquarters described for compliance with 91.217 (b) are very elaborate and 

extensive.



=================================================



Time: 10:23:41 AM PST US

From: Speedy11(at)aol.com

Subject: IFR Certification



This may not be the ideal forum for asking this question, but I'll try it 

anyway.



I want to certify my RV-8 for IFR flight.  I know the FARs - I've  looked at 

them.



I have the Blue Mountain EFIS One as primary instrumentation.

I have the Blue Mountain EFIS Lite as a backup.

Both EFISs are on different electrical busses - the main and the standby.

 -

 which can be tied together, if needed.



I asked a local avionics guy about doing a pitot-static and transponder



check for IFR.  He said I would have to install a separate altimeter and



encoder in order to get IFR certification.  The EFIS has a built-in  encod

er.



Has anyone else encountered this obstacle?



Stan Sutterfield

Speedy11(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:11 am Post subject: IFR Certification

Thanks for all the responses.

 I will use this guy to do the initial VFR certification because he will  come to me rather than me having to take the airplane to him.  Then maybe  I'll just fly it to Stein's place and get him to do the IFR cert for me.  :  )

 Stan Sutterfield

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  This is    a rather common occurance by shops that are either uneducated    or

inexperienced with experimental aircraft.  Sometimes it's also as a    result

of naiive FSDO people as well.  Basically the information    provided to you is

completely false and not correct.  The EFIS with    it's encoder is just

fine....so is it's altimeter - assuming both will pass    an IFR check.  We

have our FAA Repair Station Certification and do a    lot of said pitot static

and/or transponder checks on both certified and    experimentals.  Should be no

problem if you find the right people or    right shop.

	


 

  

 Dell Deals: Don't miss huge summer savings on popular laptops starting at $449.

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:43 am Post subject: IFR Certification

Don't if it was legal but  I didn't do a VFR cert..I just labeled the Transponder "Inooperative" and flew  it to get the IFR cert done...Why pay twice if you don't have to?

  

 Frank



   From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  Speedy11(at)aol.com

Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 7:11  AM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject:  Re: IFR Certification

 

  Thanks for all the responses.

 I will use this guy to do the initial VFR certification because he will  come to me rather than me having to take the airplane to him.  Then maybe  I'll just fly it to Stein's place and get him to do the IFR cert for me.  :  )

 Stan Sutterfield

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  This is a rather common    occurance by shops that are either uneducated or

inexperienced with    experimental aircraft.  Sometimes it's also as a result

of naiive FSDO    people as well.  Basically the information provided to you    is

completely false and not correct.  The EFIS with it's encoder is    just

fine....so is it's altimeter - assuming both will pass an IFR    check.  We

have our FAA Repair Station Certification and do a lot of    said pitot static

and/or transponder checks on both certified and    experimentals.  Should be no

problem if you find the right people or    right shop.

	


 

  

 

  Dell  Deals: Don't miss huge summer savings on popular laptops starting at  $449.

[quote]



ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

ics.com

.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:18 am Post subject: IFR Certification

Stan,  

   

This is the â€œbirds of a feather theoryâ€. Stay away from folks that have their mental investment too deep in the Piper manuals. They really do mean well butâ€¦  

   

Glenn  

   

   

       

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11(at)aol.com

 Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 10:11 AM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: IFR Certification  

  

  

       

Thanks for all the responses.  

    

I will use this guy to do the initial VFR certification because he will come to me rather than me having to take the airplane to him.  Then maybe I'll just fly it to Stein's place and get him to do the IFR cert for me.  : )  

    

Stan Sutterfield  

    

   

   	  Quote: 	
		    

This is a rather common occurance by shops that are either uneducated or

 inexperienced with experimental aircraft.  Sometimes it's also as a result

 of naiive FSDO people as well.  Basically the information provided to you is

 completely false and not correct.  The EFIS with it's encoder is just

 fine....so is it's altimeter - assuming both will pass an IFR check.  We

 have our FAA Repair Station Certification and do a lot of said pitot static

 and/or transponder checks on both certified and experimentals.  Should be no

 problem if you find the right people or right shop.  	
  

    

   

    

       

  

Dell Deals: Don't miss huge summer savings on popular laptops starting at $449.  

   	  Quote: 	
		    _-============================================================_-=Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum -_-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse_-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,_-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,_-= Photoshare, and much much more:_-=_-=Â Â  --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List  	
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ChangDriver

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 266

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: IFR Certification

Recently had my Blue Mountain Sport (new install) calibrated and certified. Not an issue.

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:10 am Post subject: IFR Certification

6/12/2009



Hello Frank, You wrote: "Why pay twice if you don't have to?"



I agree. To determine if a flight without a transponder is legal go to 14 

CFR 91.215.



Also note that permission for a flight without a transponder can be obtained 

as described in 91.215 (d).



'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and 

understand knowledge."



=====================================================

Time: 07:43:07 AM PST US

From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>

Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: IFR Certification



Don't if it was legal but I didn't do a VFR cert..I just labeled the Transp

onder "Inooperative" and flew it to get the IFR cert done...Why pay twice i

f you don't have to?



Frank

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:40 am Post subject: Re: IFR Certification

My BMA system has served as my encoder for my Mode C for 5 years

in the NYC area.  Islip Avionics had absolutely no issue with the certifications.  If the boss at your local shop does not understand the

regulations pertaining to OBAM aircraft, find another shop. Especially,

since they would, if they finally elect to do the work, would take twice

as long and charge twice as much!

_________________
Ira N224XS

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:14 am Post subject: IFR Certification

6/13/2009



Hello Ira, You wrote: "If the boss at your local shop does not understand 

the

regulations pertaining to OBAM aircraft, find another shop."



I agree that finding another shop is the best way to resolve this situation. 

However outright condemnation of the boss for "not understand(ing) the 

regulations pertaining to OBAM aircraft" is not warranted.



1) The issue is not OBAM (amateur built experimental aircraft) versus 

standard type certificated aircraft.



2) 14 CFR 91.217 applies equally to both of those kinds of aircraft.



3) The fundamental issue relates to TSO'd versus non TSO'd altitude 

encoders.



4) Note that 91.217 applies to flight under VFR as well as flight under IFR.



5) Headquarters FAA is in agreement with the boss's position of not 

approving a non TSO'd altitude encoder unless the tests required by 14 CFR 

paragraph 91.217 (b) have been accomplished.



6) FAA Headquaters says that the tests required by 91.217 (b) are far more 

complex and demanding than the tests required by 91.411 and the associated 

appendicies of 14 CFR part 43.



7) Some people dispute FAA Headquarters position on this issue, but no one 

to date has adequately challenged them to change their position.



 My current recommendations on this issue are:



A) Understand the issues. (Hence this posting to you and fellow builders).



B) Let sleeping dogs lie because if FAA Headquarers  really tried to enforce 

their position it would cause chaos in the amateur built community because 

of the large number of non TSO'd altitude encoders already flying, being 

built into aircraft, and being manufactured.



Please let me know if you have any questions. Thanks.



'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and 

understand knowledge."



==============================================



Time: 07:41:50 AM PST US

Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: IFR Certification

From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>

My BMA system has served as my encoder for my Mode C for 5 years

in the NYC area.  Islip Avionics had absolutely no issue with the 

certifications.

If the boss at your local shop does not understand the

regulations pertaining to OBAM aircraft, find another shop. Especially,

since they would, if they finally elect to do the work, would take twice

as long and charge twice as much!



--------

Ira N224XS

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:25 am Post subject: IFR Certification

6/14/2009



Hello Ira, Thanks for your input. You wrote:



1) "For VFR into B, C airspace the BMA should be fine according to my

reading of the regs."



Note that the wording of 14 CFR 91.217 makes no distinction between the 

requirement for either a TSO'd altitude encoder (91.217 (c)) or a tested 

altitude encoder (91.217 (b)) for mode C operations (automatic pressure 

altitude reporting equipment) under IFR or VFR.



Further, no class of airspace is excluded from the requirements of 91.217 by 

the wording therein.



Can you cite some regulation that says otherwise?



2) "I treated my airframe to a brand new Sandia SAE5-35 TSO'd blind 

encoder."



A valid solution. When people have attempted to get the assistance of EAA to 

change / clarify FAA Headquarter's position on this subject that is what EAA 

has recommended -- just install a TSO'd altitude encoder.



'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and 

understand knowledge."



================================================

Time: 10:35:39 AM PST US

Subject: Re: IFR Certification

From: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>

Actually I didn't condemn the boss, I simply referenced the boss

as the key to the problem.  I am familiar with the issues you raised

which is why when finally got IFR certification for myself, I treated

my airframe to a brand new Sandia SAE5-35 TSO'd blind encoder.



For VFR into B, C airspace the BMA should be fine according to my

reading of the regs.



--------

Ira N224XS

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