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jmaynard
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)
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 Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:54 pm Post subject: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
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On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 06:08:34PM -0400, Bryan Martin wrote:
| Quote: | The big difference here is that the engineers who did the GVT have actually
studied this particular aircraft design in great detail while the
Bureaucrats who wrote the NTSB report have not.
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..and this is enough to convince me that flutter isn't the problem.
We still don't know what *is* the problem.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC |
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jmaynard
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)
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| Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:54 pm Post subject: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
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On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 07:06:48AM -0700, cookwithgas wrote:
| Quote: | The next time you, as a Zenith builder or flyer get ZBAGGED, post it here
and let us know about it. Terry Phillips (not Bill) and his merry gang of
zbaggers have really made my flying experiences interesting! I used to
get compliments on the airplane but now I get compliments, then grimaces.
At least nobody recognizes the airplane until I tell them~!
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OKKAY, THAT'S FUCKING *IT*!
Stop blaming ZBAG for the Zodiac's public perception problems. ZBAG didn't
do it. The NTSB did. ZBAG, as with ANY OTHER INTERESTED PERSON!, sumitted
its comments and concerns to the NTSB. The NTSB was free to include or
ignore those comments as it saw fit. Obviously, it saw fit to include them.
ZBAG acted out of NO OTHER MOTIVATION than ensuring the safety of the fleet.
ZBAG did so a FULL YEAR before the NTSB sent out its recommedation. It did
so LONG BEFORE Zenair and the Heintz family did more than post the same
pictures of static testing with no mention of anything else. ZBAG led the
way in ensuring the safety of the Zodiac fleet. If you don't like that,
that's JUST TOO FUCKING BAD!
Now, QUIT YOUR GODDAMNED PISSING AND MOANING and go fly your fucking
AIRPLANE! Since you obviously don't care aobut safety, go see how it does
above Vne, while you're at it.
Just for the record, I just got back from a fly in at Gaston's White River
Resort in Arkansas. I flew somewhere around 13 hours getting there, flying
around the area, and geting back. I answered lots of questions. I also
didn't sell my airplane, but I wasn't expecting to, either.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
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_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC |
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jonaburns
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
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Jay,
Thanks for once again showing your stability. That kind of language has no business here. I usually allow my 7 and 12 year olds to read the posts, but I guess I will have to restrict them to books again.
Has anyone seen anything of Sabrina around this list?
This list has migrated from being entirely informative, to a polarized mess. I am as guilty as many others as to keeping on topic, but this type of reaction is not acceptable.
Jon Burns
Little Elm, TX
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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jmaynard
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)
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| Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:08 pm Post subject: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
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On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 07:23:18PM -0400, Juan Vega wrote:
| Quote: | your clearly not happy. You need to sell your plane and fly a certified
plane.
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I don't know why you keep raising this red herring. There are lots of
experimental aircraft that haven't had a rash of unexplained in-flight
structural failures. It's not about certificated vs. experimental. It's
about a manufacturer's response to bad news: do they stonewall, or do they
forthrightly and publicly address the problem? I'm quite happy to see Zenith
move from the former to the latter with regard to the GVT testing, and hope
they do so as completely as humanly possible. (And I still think ZBAG is
wrong not to do the same.)
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
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_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC |
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jmaynard
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)
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| Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:22 pm Post subject: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
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On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 04:56:21PM -0700, jonaburns wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks for once again showing your stability. That kind of language has
no business here.
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Neither do the personal attacks that seem to be the stock in trade of some
posters around here. The use of the term "Zbagged" in such a fashion was the
last straw for me.
| Quote: | This list has migrated from being entirely informative, to a polarized
mess. I am as guilty as many others as to keeping on topic, but this type
of reaction is not acceptable.
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Neither was the post that provoked it, or the subsequent post that used the
same term.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
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_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC |
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jmaynard
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)
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| Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:14 am Post subject: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
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On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 10:18:17PM -0400, Rick Lindstrom wrote:
| Quote: | Yes, Dave, it WAS nice around here while it lasted, wasn't it?
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Too bad some folks feel compelled to make personal attacks against those who
are concerned for their safety and that of their passengers.
| Quote: | However, the sullied reputation of the 601XL will remain so until the
hoopla is allowed to die down. Unfortunately, this may take awhile, ss
evidenced by the negative comments gathered by those who've endured them
and reported them here.
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Indeed. We're far from the first folks who have had to defend their aircraft
from negative publicity.
| Quote: | Frankly, I'm a bit stunned by the comments from those who choose to ignore
the recent GVT data and continue to press the "fatal flaw" theory. Sure,
the 601XL airframe is just not going to put up with the same abuse that
other airframes might handle. But then, it's not stressed for aerobatics
or intended for rough weather conditions.
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The recent GVT results rule out one fatal flaw (in my book), that of aileron
flutter. I'm completely satisfied that that's not an issue. (The NTSB may
not be, however.) They do not rule out other flaws.
The problem I have is that those on the other side of the fence are assuming
the exact opposite: that there is no fatal flaw, and cannot be, and that the
rash of inflight breakups can be exclusively attributed to builder and pilot
error. That assumption is downright dangerous. How many people died
needlessly due to Bonanza inflight breakups before Beech was forced to quit
stonewalling and fix the ruddervator design? Is it unreasonable to demand
that Zenith do all they can to avoid the same fate?
| Quote: | I'm very fortunate to have access to several airplanes to fly, and I'll
choose the right one for the mission at hand. The 601XL is a great,
good-weather, fun-flying type airplane. If there's any weather involved,
or anything beyond light to moderate chop, I'll take a different one.
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As will I. (For me, the different one is likely to have four wheels.)
| Quote: | It is what it is. It ain't what it ain't. Why is this so hard to understand?
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I don't think that anyone is misunderstanding what the Zodiac is and is
capable of, statements by others that "you need to sell your airplane and
buy a certificated aircraft" notwithstanding. OTOH, assuming that the Zodiac
need not be as safe as certificated aircraft is highly destructive, because
that will do nothing but give anti-experimental agitators out there more
ammunition.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
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_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC |
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Mitch Hodges
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 45
Location: Powder Springs, GA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:27 am Post subject: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
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I don't really have a dog in this hunt (well, maybe a little yippie dog, since I'm building an HDS) but it seems to me that is reasonable, given the limited information available to our fellow pilots from AOPA, etc, for them to be curious, even concerned, and to want to ask questions about the XL or any other airframe with a recommendation or directive against it.
Case in point, as I mentioned in a previous post, I took an aerobatics course a couple of weeks ago. It was in a Cessna 152 Aerobat. All 152's are subject to a recent controversial AD concerning rudder stops. Two accidents occurred back in 2005-2007 where 152s were being used to practice spins and the pilots were not able to recover. It was determined one plane was very poorly maintained, and the other had the rudder stops installed backwards and were ineffective. (There is some debate on whether there were other related incidents, but these were the two the AD was based on)
The Aerobat I flew in, and instructor I flew with, participated in the FAA testing for the AD. Despite the fact that no fault could be found with a properly maintained and configured 152, the FAA issued an AD that requires a $500 "repair".
Since the AD was not yet in effect at the time of my flight, and the "new improved" parts had not been installed on this Aerobat, I talked it over with the instructor, she showed me the tail, explained the AD, and also demonstrated that the issues found on the two lost aircraft (rudder hitting the elevator) were guarded against in the standard design with correctly installed an maintained stops. Given this particular airframe had recovered successfully from literally a couple of thousand spins, and its partner plane, now in the Smithsonian, had a documented 6,000+ spin recoveries, I went up, enjoyed my flights and gave no further thought to it.
We had a similar conversation about the XL, as she knew I was building a related design. Her knowledge was limited to what was in the AOPA and a couple of other articles. I explained the testing that had been done to date, including the ZBAG and European testing, as well as the static load tests. She came away with a better understanding and we both agreed the whole story isn't out there yet.
In the end, we both made informed decisions, I flew in lots of unusual attitudes in "Orville the Aerobat" and she asked for the privilege to one day have a little seat time in "Michelle the Zodiac" if I ever manage to
finish it.
My point is, flying is, in the end, the practice of making informed decisions and mitigating risk to each pilot-in-command's satisfaction. It is the responsibility of the entire flying community to watch out for one another, and it is possible we will disagree on occasion. That is healthy.
It is unfortunate that a vocal few on this list find it necessary to leave out the "civil" portion of civil aviation. It serves no useful purpose that I can tell other than providing some limited entertainment.
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
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_________________
Mitch Hodges
N601MH (Zenith 601HDS)
Builder Log at http://www.hodges.aero
Wings Under Perpetual Construction |
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Scotsman
Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 89
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:45 am Post subject: Re: I got Zbagged three times on Friday - Flight Report. |
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Good post Mitch...
The in group out group thing seems to be primarily a difference in each individual's risk appetite.
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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