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dalewhelan

Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:21 pm Post subject: Thank you

I would like to thank the members that contribute to this list. About a year ago I decided to learn to fly. I took lessons and bought a Firestar II that was 1500 miles from my home. I took my flying lessons serious because I was planning to fly the plane home from Missouri to Arizona in July. After I got home I was looking for a club that could help me to become a better pilot. I found a local EAA ultralight chapter but they don't fly. I found this board and read the thoughts and suggestions of the contributors. Almost every time I fly I am practicing some kind of drill, I think I should, I only have 100 hours in my Firestar. Last week I saw a post of a guy taxiing on on wheel. I thought I should be able to control my plane this well. Next time at the airfield I was doing this in a gusty crosswind. Yesterday I was practicing emergency procedures. I was low, slow, banked, power off, with lots of thermal activity. I impacted the ground at about 50 indicated and full power. The plane left gouges in the dirt runway. As I got back in the air my passenger (God knows why she wants to be there when I practice this shit) pointed out that which I already knew, My left main was severely bent. Climb performance was also a bit low, the motor would not pull full revs. I said I was not sure how I was going to land this thing, she replied on one wheel. Well I knew that, I just was not sure if I would come in as slow as possible or as controlled as possible. I had enough fuel to fly about 2 more hours until the thermals died down but decided the 10 mph headwind was a good friend. I buzzed the field to get my friend Greg's attention as the people at Turf had shut down operations and turned off the radio. Greg asked how he could help, I said sweep up the pieces. I told Rebeka how I was going to land. The impact had ripped the brake line from the right main as well. I said I would come in a little fast, land on one wheel with the plane Cross controlled. As I slowed I would further cross control it and fly it on the ground sideways. As the right main touched I would have to give more left rudder and be ready for left brake. I came in and the thermals blew me around slightly. After I touched down I was yawed a little by a thermal. Seconds later all was calm, I lifted the right wing higher and got more crossed up. I slowed and added more left aileron and right rudder. At what seemed like 20-25 MPH the right wing fell and I applied more left rudder. The plane came to rest with the right wingtip about 1 foot off the ground, no contact. My Ivo prop was all but destroyed from the gravel the tire kicked up and the left wing looks like it was hit with a shot gun. My bad choices resulted in a near disaster, my practice resulted in good landing. I forgot who posted the one wheel taxi video but thank you very much for doing so. Rebeka has some photos I will post later, by the way, she was hanging out the left side as much as she could to help, do you now understand why I call her Ballast?

_________________
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II, Luscombe 8A
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept

Last edited by dalewhelan on Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:53 am; edited 1 time in total

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:40 pm Post subject: Thank you

I don't know Dale, maybe you should change her name from Ballast to Guardian Angel. Good on ya for pulling off a difficult landing.



Rick



On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 6:21 PM, dalewhelan <dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net (dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "dalewhelan" <dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net (dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net)>

  

 I would like to thank the members that contribute to this list. About a year ago I decided to learn to fly. I took lessons and bought a Firestar II that was 1500 miles from my home. I took my flying lessons serious because I was planning to fly the plane home from Missouri to Arizona in July. After I got home I was looking for a club that could help me to become a better pilot. I found a local EAA ultralight chapter but they don't fly. I found this board and read the thoughts and suggestions of the contributors. Almost every time I fly I am practicing some kind of drill, I think I should, I only have 100 hours in my Firestar. Last week I saw a post of a guy taxiing on on wheel. I thought I should be able to control my plane this well. Next time at the airfield I was doing this in a gusty crosswind. Yesterday I was practicing emergency proceedures. I was low, slow, banked, power off, with lots of thermal activity. I impacted the ground at about 50 indicated and full power. Th!

   e plane left gouges in the dirt runway. As I got back in the air my passenger (got knows why she wants to be there when I practice this shit) pointed out that which I already knew, My left main was severely bent. Climb performance was also a bit low, the motor would not pull full revs. I said I was not sure how I was going to land this thing, she replied on one wheel. Well I knew that, I just was not sure if I would come in as slow as possible or as controlled as possible. I had enough fuel t fly about 2 more hours until the thermals died down but decided the 10 mph headwind was a good friend. I buzzed the field to get my friend Greg's attention as the people at Turf had shut down operations and turned off the radio. Greg asked how he could help, I said sweep up the pieces. I told Rebeka how I was going to land. The impact had ripped the brake line from the right main as well. I said I woould come in a little fast, land on one wheel with the plane Cross controlled. As I slo!

   wed I would further cross control it and fly it on the ground !

  sideways

 

 . As the right main touched I would have to give more left rudder and be ready for left brake. I came in and the thermals blew me around slightly. After I touched down I was yawed a little by a thermal. Seconds later all was calm, I lifted the right wing higher and got more crossed up. I slowed and added more left aileron and right rudder. At what seemed like 20-25 MPH the right wing fell and I applied more left rudder. The plane came to rest with the right wingtip about 1 foot off the ground, no contact. My Ivo prop was all but destroyed from the gravel the tire kicked up and the left wing looks like it was hit with a shot gun. My bad choices resulted in a near disaster, my practice resulted in good landing. I forgot who posted the one wheel taxi video but thank you very much for doing so. Rebeka has some photos I will post later, by the way, she was hanging out the left side as much as she could to help, do you now understand why I call her Ballast?

  

 --------

 Dale Whelan

 503 powered Firestar II

 

 

 

 

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 [b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:25 pm Post subject: Thank you

Sorry to hear about your mishap, glad you're OK, but:

At 07:21 PM 6/15/2009, dalewhelan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



....I found a local EAA ultralight chapter but they don't fly....


	


?????



-Dana



--

  Computers run on smoke. If it leaks out, they don't work.

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:56 am Post subject: Thank you

every time I fly I am practicing some kind of drill,>>



As should we all. But we don`t.  Congrats on a good job



Cheers



Pat

dalewhelan

Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:59 am Post subject: Re: Thank you

Dana,

The local EAA chapter I found has meetings, not during the summer. They have a website that you need to be a member of to see. They have drive in breakfast once in a while at an airport. They have planes in various states of disrepair. I asked at a meeting how many had flyable planes, only the guy that taught me to fly could say yes. They have many reasons why they can't fly, funny, the reasons they give for not flying are the same reasons I have for flying.

_________________
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II, Luscombe 8A
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept

frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:43 am Post subject: Thank you

Hi Dale ,



Sorry to hear about your mishap. Glad you made it through ok without  

too much damage

to your plane or yourself or Rebeka . If your buddy with the nose  

wheel firestar has e mail

please send me his address offlist as I would like to keep in  touch  

with you guys.



Frank Goodnight

Firestar

Brownsville , TX

Do not archive.

On Jun 15, 2009, at 6:21 PM, dalewhelan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 >



 I would like to thank the members that contribute to this list.  

 About a year ago I decided to learn to fly. I took lessons and  

 bought a Firestar II that was 1500 miles from my home. I took my  

 flying lessons serious because I was planning to fly the plane home  

 from Missouri to Arizona in July. After I got home I was looking for  

 a club that could help me to become a better pilot. I found a local  

 EAA ultralight chapter but they don't fly. I found this board and  

 read the thoughts and suggestions of the contributors. Almost every  

 time I fly I am practicing some kind of drill, I think I should, I  

 only have 100 hours in my Firestar. Last week I saw a post of a guy  

 taxiing on on wheel. I thought I should be able to control my plane  

 this well. Next time at the airfield I was doing this in a gusty  

 crosswind. Yesterday I was practicing emergency proceedures. I was  

 low, slow, banked, power off, with lots of thermal activity. I  

 impacted the ground at about 50 indicated and full power. Th!

 e plane left gouges in the dirt runway. As I got back in the air my  

 passenger (got knows why she wants to be there when I practice this  

 shit) pointed out that which I already knew, My left main was  

 severely bent. Climb performance was also a bit low, the motor would  

 not pull full revs. I said I was not sure how I was going to land  

 this thing, she replied on one wheel. Well I knew that, I just was  

 not sure if I would come in as slow as possible or as controlled as  

 possible. I had enough fuel t fly about 2 more hours until the  

 thermals died down but decided the 10 mph headwind was a good  

 friend. I buzzed the field to get my friend Greg's attention as the  

 people at Turf had shut down operations and turned off the radio.  

 Greg asked how he could help, I said sweep up the pieces. I told  

 Rebeka how I was going to land. The impact had ripped the brake line  

 from the right main as well. I said I woould come in a little fast,  

 land on one wheel with the plane Cross controlled. As I slo!

 wed I would further cross control it and fly it on the ground !

 sideways



 . As the right main touched I would have to give more left rudder  

 and be ready for left brake. I came in and the thermals blew me  

 around slightly. After I touched down I was yawed a little by a  

 thermal. Seconds later all was calm, I lifted the right wing higher  

 and got more crossed up. I slowed and added more left aileron and  

 right rudder. At what seemed like 20-25 MPH the right wing fell and  

 I applied more left rudder. The plane came to rest with the right  

 wingtip about 1 foot off the ground, no contact. My Ivo prop was all  

 but destroyed from the gravel the tire kicked up and the left wing  

 looks like it was hit with a shot gun. My bad choices resulted in a  

 near disaster, my practice resulted in good landing. I forgot who  

 posted the one wheel taxi video but thank you very much for doing  

 so. Rebeka has some photos I will post later, by the way, she was  

 hanging out the left side as much as she could to help, do you now  

 understand why I call her Ballast?



 --------

 Dale Whelan

 503 powered Firestar II





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 48339#248339

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:55 am Post subject: Re: Thank you

 	  dalewhelan wrote: 	
		  Dana,

The local EAA chapter I found has meetings, not during the summer. They have a website that you need to be a member of to see. They have drive in breakfast once in a while at an airport. They have planes in various states of disrepair. I asked at a meeting how many had flyable planes, only the guy that taught me to fly could say yes. They have many reasons why they can't fly, funny, the reasons they give for not flying are the same reasons I have for flying. 	




I see this a lot too and a lot of them have had some kind of nasty experience that keeps them out of the plane. Something broke or they doinked the plane or something along these lines.



A lot of guys don't recognize that flying isn't (or shouldn't be) a survival exercise. They think they just absolutely have to go up and fly around in those 15G25+ conditions where the stick and rudder pedals are constantly bumping up against their stops just to maintain straight and level or get the airplane down without bending something.



This is one of the hardest disciplines to have in aviation I think. The training and peer pressure in this regard is the very worst and you really have to stay on top of it to keep your plane out of the dirt and you in the cockpit only in appropriate conditions.



I'm one of these wierdos that doesn't like to fly that close to the edge of control. Im grounded (and sometimes criticized) for that reason a bit more than I probably otherwise would be. I just don't get a charge out pushing it to the limit anymore. Maybe if I were paid more at my job or didn't mind having to call FSDO to get investigated for incidents.... dunno.



OTOH, I'm not buying a bunch of parts and doing a bunch of repairs when the weather _is_ nice for an enjoyable flight. The plane amazingly stays together as have all my past planes including my FS II. Nice exchange for little dings in my ego here and there - I'd say I come out on top. Let the brave guys have the convective activity and winds, it's more exciting to watch from the ground anyway .



Let's be careful out there,



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

dalewhelan

Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:44 am Post subject: Re: Thank you

I got Rebeka's photos here is what I landed, looked worse from the cockpit than it probably was.

I know my philosophy may differ from others.

25 years of road racing motorcycles may do that.

I often practice in a way that may hurt me because ignorance and inability may kill me.

DSC02083.JPG

Description:

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2.38 MB

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11783 Time(s)

_________________
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II, Luscombe 8A
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:08 am Post subject: thank you

Dale- Wow.  I hope you ran out and bought a lottery ticket.  The wing damage didn't show in the photo.  How bad is it?  Looks like it might have nose cone damage.  Why did the engine fail to go to full power?

  

                                             Bill Sullivan

                                             Windsor Locks, Ct.

 [quote][b]

dalewhelan

Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Thank you

Well as Lucien suggested I was flying at or as evidence suggests, beyond my limits.

I was simulating deadstick landings. I was low, slow, banked, and power off. The motor response was immediate, Blame it on many years of tuning 2 stroke roadrace bikes, I was low and slow. I felt no indication of stall and no indication of climb. It happened pretty quick, I may have hit some sink but it was my fault for putting myself there.

I avoided wing contact with the ground but gravel went through the left wing via the propeller.

DSC02086.JPG

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1.59 MB

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_________________
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II, Luscombe 8A
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept

dalewhelan

Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:56 am Post subject: Re: Thank you

Here is the poor little IVO prop

DSC02089.JPG

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11769 Time(s)

_________________
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II, Luscombe 8A
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:22 pm Post subject: Thank you

I was flying at or as evidence suggests, beyond my limits.

 	  Quote: 	
		   I was simulating deadstick landings. I was low, slow, banked, and power 

 off.   I was low and slow. I felt no indication of stall

 --------

 Dale Whelan


	


Best not performed with passenger on board.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

dalewhelan

Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: Thank you

Best not performed with passenger on board.



I agree, my passenger does not agree. 



She too is a motorcycle racing veteran. I am not sure why she wants to be there when I do these things, but she does. 



She is studying for sport pilot written and when money permits, she too want to get a pilot license. 



She asks many questions while we fly.

_________________
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II, Luscombe 8A
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:37 am Post subject: Thank you

I was low, slow, banked, and power off.>>



Ugh!. That will do it everytime.



While  I was learning to glide exactly that happened to a friend. With an 

instructor he took off to practice `cable breaks` The equivalent of `engine 

failure on takeoff` in power.

The instructor dropped the cable at around 5/600 ft and there was room on 

the runway to land straight ahead. Instead the glider turned back toward the 

launch point. Even so a downwind landing could have been pulled off without 

too much drama. Unfortunately having reached the launch point, by now very 

low, he tried to turn back into wind.

Because of the proximity off the ground the pilot was reluctant to put the 

wing down as much as he should have done, he also held the nose up and got 

even slower. This produced a flat turn, the inside wing stalled and they 

spun in,from less than 100ft. killing instuctor and pupil.



Another time, during the war, I saw an Albemarle ( an unsuccesful twin 

engined bomber reduced to glider tugging) with a Waco troop carrying glider 

on tow.  The Waco got out of position and pulled the Albemarles tail round. 

The Albemarles inside wing stalled and she spun in killing everyone on 

board.



I obviously subconciously learned the lesson as when I found myself in a 

glider in a similar position going downwind very low and nowhere to land, I 

dived at the ground, banked hard back into wind (nearly) and made a rough 

but reasonable landing.  I was torn off a tremendous strip by the airfields 

owner, (quite right too I should not have got myself into that position) and 

threatened  with being banned from the field, but I was alive.



Low and slow is bad. Low, slow and banked is a killer.



Cheers



Pat

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:34 am Post subject: Thank you

Frank Goodnight>>



Really off topic but any connection to Goodnight and Loving?



Cheers



Pat

pcarillonsr(at)neo.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:56 am Post subject: Thank you

dalewhelan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I got Rebeka's photos

 

 --------

 Dale Whelan

 503 powered Firestar II

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 48451#248451

 

 

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc02083_113.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 

 


	


Dale, back in 96 when I soloed my Firestar II I did about the same thing 

. First landing at sunset I came straight in at a private 2000' grass 

strip that had been trenched across about half way down the strip for 

field tile, then filled in leaving a mound of dirt across the runway a 

little over a foot high, not a problem still had 1000' of runway to use. 

I cut power at about 500', held airspeed at 50mph, air was completely 

calm, used the mound of dirt as my threshold. I watched the dirt mound 

in the windscreen to see if went up or down so I knew if I would land 

short or long. Everything was going good till I got within a distance of 

about 150' away an maybe 20' in the air from my threshold when I 

realized I would touch down right at the mound of dirt

if I kept going the way I was, so instead of adding power I eased back 

on the stick just a hair thinking I would clear the dirt. You guessed 

it, the dreaded "Kolb Quit", speed bled off quick. Left wing stalled 

first dropping from about 5' onto the left gear on top of the mound of 

dirt, bending the gear leg, although not as bad as yours but it also 

turned the wheel out about 45 degrees of toe out. After hitting I went 

off the right side of the runway into some tall grass, motor still 

running looked at the wheel with disgust ,added power and taxied out of 

the tall grass and up the field where my buddy was.He had flown my 

Firestar the 5 miles from his 600' strip to this field and I drove. I 

said looks like we'll have to go get the trailer and haul it home. My 

buddy said you taxied it up the strip so I'll try to fly it off.  He did 

just that, no problem taking off,You couldn't tell the wheel was the way 

it was it tracked straight down the strip. He waited to land at his 

house till I got there and had no problem landing. It my have been that 

it was late enough in the evening that there was a little dew on the 

grass. Grass strips a very forgiving. My buddy straightened the gear leg 

and found no other damage.



Jack Carillon FirestarII 503 DCDI

Akron Oh.

dalewhelan

Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Thank you

It may sound funny but when I am short my first thought is to gain speed, I am not one to try to extend a glide.

When I was 12 my father and I were short in a glider.

Our options were trees now, or perpendicular to a canal just short of the runway.

My father spent his life as a teacher and took this time to teach me. He asked what I wanted to do.

I said if we don't try to make it we may have some explaining to do. We had a headwind, he added half the headwind component and we made it. I could see the twist in the wire as we crossed the fence.

I have had 2 forced landings and have practiced many deadstick landings. 

One time I was short with no motor, I was not going to clear a fence. I pushed the nose down and aimed at the base of the fence and flared when I got there, as I cleared the fence I pushed forward, the plane nose over but was done flying, I got the nose back up but it hit hard, no damage.

I do practice harder than most, (I take all the ASF courses I can, I fly every week, and I read this forum), I hope to not hurt myself doing it. I can guarantee I will never put anyone at risk except myself and my ballast that demands I take her when I practice. She knows the risk.

_________________
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II, Luscombe 8A
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:14 am Post subject: Thank you

I pushed the nose down and aimed at the base of the fence and flared when I 

got there, as I cleared the fence I pushed forward, the plane nose over but 

was done flying, I got the nose back up but it hit hard, no damage.>>



Hi Dale,

I  once saw that done and like you, the pilot got away with it.  Thinking 

about it afterwards I came to the conclusion that continuing the glide, and 

not diving  was the better answer. At least in theory you cannot get higher 

than you were by diving and pulling up. Where would the extra energy come 

from? When you dive you exchange some of the potential energy stored in the 

glider in the form of height  for speed, and when you pull up you change it 

back again from speed into height. Unfortunately there are losses involved. 

Otherwise you would have invented a perpetual motion machine. In any case 

the theoretical best you can do, disregarding any losses for the sake of 

argument, is to get back to the height you were before, so you have gained 

nothing. Of course you might expend all your energy getting back all the 

height available and then the plane quits flying at that point and you just 

fall over the fence, which is just about what happened to you.



Takes nerve to put the theory into practice and just sit there watching the 

fence get higher. I think I might try to dive anyway.



I really should approach my flying in the same manner that you do. I am 

afraid that I tend to think that whatever I have been doing up to now has 

kept me alive so thats enough. I know that its not but I am too old to 

change my habits now.



Cheers



Pat

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:14 am Post subject: Thank you

At 05:13 AM 6/18/2009, pj.ladd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  At least in theory you cannot get higher than you were by diving and 

pulling up. Where would the extra energy come from? When you dive you 

exchange some of the potential energy stored in the glider in the form of 

height  for speed, and when you pull up you change it back again from 

speed into height. Unfortunately there are losses involved. Otherwise you 

would have invented a perpetual motion machine. In any case the 

theoretical best you can do, disregarding any losses for the sake of 

argument, is to get back to the height you were before...


	


Well, yes and no.  You have some kinetic energy at first as well, so you 

may be able to end up higher, but at a lower airspeed than when you started.



-Dana



--

  Help, I've fallen up and I can't get down

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:14 am Post subject: Thank you

At 12:02 AM 6/18/2009, dalewhelan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



It may sound funny but when I am short my first thought is to gain speed, 

I am not one to try to extend a glide.


	


Well, sure.  The speed for best glide _angle_ is faster than the speed for 

minimum _sink_.  Also the speed for best glide angle over the ground if 

you're flying into the wind is faster than if you're flying 

downwind.   This is especially true in slow aircraft like ours, where the 

wind speed may be a significant fraction of our airsped.



-Dana

--

  Help, I've fallen up and I can't get down

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