 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
landshorter2(at)yahoo.com
Guest
|
 Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:24 pm Post subject: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II- reply from Joa |
 |
|
Ok guys, I'll hop into the frying pan here. Normally I don't pipe up on the forums too much (except the Rans forums) but John called and emailed me explaining that there might be a little bit of confusion about why folks put VGs on the tail.
Now granted, I'm just coming off a 12+ hour workday trying to certify the Kodiak so I might be a little rummy here 
Let me tell you what I saw on my S-7 (and similar to what I hear from many of my customers) and maybe that will help explain the effect VGs have when you place them on the hor stab....
Before I put VGs on the tail but had them on the wing I couldn't even get a full stall, it would just mush. Granted my "minimum flying speed" was much better than before I put the VGs on the wing but I still couldn't get a stall so I knew I wasn't going as slow as I possibly could. Basically my elevator wasn't effective enough to get my wing to a high enough angle of attack to stall now that it had the VGs. As Jeremy correctly pointed out this is the same effect that kept the Ercoupes from being able to stall the wing except that Fred Weick did it by limiting elevator travel. The later Ercoupes (I use to own a G model) could stall just dandy (but still not spin). In fact they have a very sharp stall due to the NACA 5 digit airfoil and could really benefit from VGs. Anybody want to do an STC?? Sorry, I'm off track....
Ok, so where I use to really notice it (besides the non-stall) is when landing with someone in the back seat. I just didn't have the elevator authority to quickly flare and arrest my sink rate and ended up having to come in a little faster than normal and float a bit more so that I wouldn't bounce.
Well now after I've put VGs on the tail I definitely can get a stall if I slow down to below the speed I was at before (with VGs just on the wing). In fact if I put power to her I can get the nose up so high and hang on the prop so much that it's downright scary and when it finally does stall it is very noticable because you're going so slow. Of course you don't really need this extreme of attitude unless you're doing a really aggressive flare on landing. This is a great way to really get in short if you need to (but is of course harder on your gear and airframe and it helps to have balloon tires). Pull up hard and 3-point stall it on and get on the brakes so that your tail comes back up and hold the brakes as hard as you can without nosing over (not to start a religious debate between wheelies and 3-pointers but my experience is that a proper aggressive 3-point with heavy braking will get you stopped a lot faster than a tail high wheel landing). If you really want t
o see
some good sticks display this technique then buy the video "Big Rocks Long Props". Those boys are amazing!
What happens is that when you are at a high angle of attack with the stick full aft the air separates/breaks off at the hingeline on the underside of the stab and reduces the amount of downforce the tail can provide to rotate the wing to a higher angle of attack. I'm not positive the tail is actually fully "stalled" in the way we think of a wing as stalling but it's easier to think of it as just "not producing enough lift required to rotate the wing any more".
Anyway, that's my experience and I'm stickin' to it Here's the best part- you can find out for yourself and I won't even charge you if they don't work as advertised. So far not a single person has taken me up on my money back guarantee because they haven't worked on the tail.
By the way, the certified plane that I'm working on has VGs on the tail too. Hmm, wonder who designed them?
Oh, I'm definitely a pilot and if I'm in your neck of the woods (or you're in mine in N Idaho) I would love to fly with any of you and we can go out and have some dandy fun. It would help if you had big tires but even if you don't I'm sure we can get in to some really fun places and put some of this talk into practice
Speaking of... soon after SnF a bunch of the Rans guys are going to try to get together somewhere around Alvord Desert (SE Oregon) or thereabouts and have a little informal spring fly-in. We should get some Kolbs coming too. Once I get a date and location I'll try to remember to let you all know. Lots of fun
Joa
www.landshorter.com
---------------------------------
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:27 am Post subject: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II- reply from Joa |
|
|
| Speaking of... soon after SnF a bunch of the Rans guys are going to
try to get together somewhere around Alvord Desert (SE Oregon) or
thereabouts and have a little informal spring fly-in. We should get
some Kolbs coming too. Once I get a date and location I'll try to
remember to let you all know. Lots of fun
|
| Joa
The weekend between Mother's Day and Memorial Day, is reserved for the
Fourth Annual UnPlanned/Unorganized Kolb Flyin, Monument Valley, UT.
Everyone is welcome to attend.
Last year after the MV Flyin, several of us Kolbers flew to Moab, UT,
for a few days, then on up to Alvord Dessert for a few more days. Had
a ball, but it turned out to be marginal because of unusually high
water. However, we did have enough dry lake bed to fly off and camp
on.
Again, several of us plan on being in the area of the Alvord the week
following our MV Flyin, which is 19-21 May 2006. Might note, some of
us will arrive MV a day or two earlier than the unofficial start date
of 19 May.
Take care,
john h
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Larry Cottrell
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 35
Location: Klamath Falls, Oregon
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:37 pm Post subject: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II- reply from Joa |
|
|
| Quote: | | Speaking of... soon after SnF a bunch of the Rans guys are going to
try to get together somewhere around Alvord Desert (SE Oregon) or
thereabouts and have a little informal spring fly-in. We should get
some Kolbs coming too. Once I get a date and location I'll try to
remember to let you all know. Lots of fun
|
To all,
The Alvord last year was indeed marginal because of high water. I do
believe that this year will be much the same. The south end of the desert
should be dry though.
My wife and I will be moving into the Rock house at Burns Jct. N42
40.751
W117 51.673 by May 1st. The place is on Hwy 95 between Burns ( 95 miles
north)and McDermott, Nev. (50 miles south) Jordan Valley is 38 miles east on
Hwy 95. Access is through a state gravel pit at MP 72. It has a 2600 foot
gravel strip and a 40x50 cinderblock hanger. It is located 30 miles (air)
east of the Alvord, and about 7 miles north of Rome State. Nearest neighbor
is at least a mile away, and the wind always seems to blow down the strip.
We of course would like to invite all of you to come there for a visit once
we have had a chance to get settled, or you could help us move. It is
out in the desert, (sage) If you Rans guys would like to join us up there I
am sure you would be welcomed by everyone. Plenty of room to camp as well.
Larry
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eugene Zimmerman
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:32 pm Post subject: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II- reply from Joa |
|
|
On Mar 28, 2006, at 1:21 AM, Land Shorter wrote:
| Quote: | Ok, so where I use to really notice it (besides the non-stall) is
when landing with someone in the back seat. I just didn't have the
elevator authority to quickly flare and arrest my sink rate and
ended up having to come in a little faster than normal and float a
bit more so that I wouldn't bounce.
|
Joa,
You seem to be saying you need more elevator authority to flare with
someone in the back seat than you do solo, is that correct?
If so, that must mean that the back seat on your Rans airplane is
still in front of the center of lift.
A Kolb Firestar II puts the weight of the back seat passenger very
close to the center of lift and does not exhibit this lack of
elevator authority you are talking about with a back seat passenger.
Perhaps a side by side Mark III Kolb driver can tell us what they
experience with elevator control, with or without a passenger? Do you
ever feel that more elevator control would be desirable?
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:02 pm Post subject: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II- reply from Joa |
|
|
| Perhaps a side by side Mark III Kolb driver can tell us what they
| experience with elevator control, with or without a passenger? Do
you
| ever feel that more elevator control would be desirable?
|
Gene:
To answer the first question, pull back, nose goes up and tail goes
down,............................... 
Sorry could not resist.
Seriously, if I needed more elevator control, I would stick those
little thing on the bottom of my horizontal stabilizers.
With a real lard ass in the left seat, it does not pay to approach a 3
pt landing too slowly. Probably, could use more elevator control
during a situation like that. However, I am normally solo with gear
in the rear cargo compartment and 150 lbs of fuel in the normally
upper rear open area in a MKIII. So......I have plenty pitch control.
john h
MKIII
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:02 pm Post subject: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II- reply from Joa |
|
|
The MKIII with full flaps and a heavy passenger is starting to run out
of elevator authority. If you have to make a go around type maneuver -
it is good to practice this at altitude, because with full power and
full flaps, the high thrust line and center of lift travel induced by
the flaps will open your eyes. it is not anything dangerous, but the
usual Kolb elevator authority is just not there the way you typically
expect.
If you land with a heavy passenger, full flaps, and VG's, you can shoot
the approach at 45 mph (indicated) but then you don't have enough
elevator authority to flare. Full aft stick changes nothing. Surprise!
And yes, more elevator authority in that situation would be good.
Richard Pike
MKIII n420P (420ldPoops)
Eugene Zimmerman wrote:
| Quote: |
On Mar 28, 2006, at 1:21 AM, Land Shorter wrote:
> Ok, so where I use to really notice it (besides the non-stall) is
> when landing with someone in the back seat. I just didn't have the
> elevator authority to quickly flare and arrest my sink rate and
> ended up having to come in a little faster than normal and float a
> bit more so that I wouldn't bounce.
>
Joa,
You seem to be saying you need more elevator authority to flare with
someone in the back seat than you do solo, is that correct?
If so, that must mean that the back seat on your Rans airplane is
still in front of the center of lift.
A Kolb Firestar II puts the weight of the back seat passenger very
close to the center of lift and does not exhibit this lack of
elevator authority you are talking about with a back seat passenger.
Perhaps a side by side Mark III Kolb driver can tell us what they
experience with elevator control, with or without a passenger? Do you
ever feel that more elevator control would be desirable?
|
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eugene Zimmerman
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II- reply from Joa |
|
|
Thanks, Richard
Have you tried the VGs for that situation yet?
On Mar 28, 2006, at 9:00 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
| Quote: |
The MKIII with full flaps and a heavy passenger is starting to run out
of elevator authority. If you have to make a go around type maneuver -
it is good to practice this at altitude, because with full power and
full flaps, the high thrust line and center of lift travel induced by
the flaps will open your eyes. it is not anything dangerous, but the
usual Kolb elevator authority is just not there the way you typically
expect.
If you land with a heavy passenger, full flaps, and VG's, you can
shoot
the approach at 45 mph (indicated) but then you don't have enough
elevator authority to flare. Full aft stick changes nothing. Surprise!
And yes, more elevator authority in that situation would be good.
Richard Pike
MKIII n420P (420ldPoops)
|
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject: Land Shorter VG's on Firestar II- reply from Joa |
|
|
| The MKIII with full flaps and a heavy passenger is starting to run
out
| of elevator authority. |
| Richard Pike
Richard is certainly correct here. Full flaps, heavy passenger, full
power, is a very undesirable situation. Best ease those flaps up as
you come in with full power to go around.
I don't like flying solo with full flaps and full power, although it
will fly this configuration.
john h
MKIII
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
