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Where did ZBAG go?
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Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:11 am Post subject: Where did ZBAG go?

As I mentioned in another post ZBAG wasn't on my list of Yahoo Groups this AM. But I can't find it at all on Yahoo now.



http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=ZBAG

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

cookwithgas

Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 159

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:36 am Post subject: Re: Where did ZBAG go?

Back into the hole from which it crawled?

William Dominguez

Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:41 am Post subject: Where did ZBAG go?

The group is still in the same place it have always been. As you suspected in your previous email, you've been banned and it was not because you "didn't follow the party line" as you suggested in your previous email. There's not such a thing as a party line in the group, I think you know pretty well why if you read my answer to one of your last post. If you still don't know why, let me know off line so spare this list from this. 



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida



--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>

Subject: Where did ZBAG go?

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 10:11 AM



--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <[url=/mc/compose?to=wrgiacona(at)gmail.com]wrgiacona(at)gmail.com[/url]>



As I mentioned in another post ZBAG wasn't on my list of Yahoo Groups this AM. But I can't find it at all on Yahoo now.



http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=ZBAG



--------

W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

601XL Under Construction

See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronicssp; --> http========================http://www.matronics.com/contribut===============





	
  [quote][b]

_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:50 am Post subject: Where did ZBAG go?

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 07:36:21AM -0700, cookwithgas wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Back into the hole from which it crawled?


	


How about doing the same, and letting those of us who actually care about

the safety of our aircraft get on with it?

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

pdn8r(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:12 am Post subject: Where did ZBAG go?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm......that's interesting William.  If thats the way ZBAG chooses to operate please ban me from the group as well.

  

 Regards,



Bill Pagan EAA Tech Counselor #4395

601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES)

--- On Tue, 6/16/09, William Dominguez <bill_dom(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: William Dominguez <bill_dom(at)yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Where did ZBAG go?

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 10:41 AM



     The group is still in the same place it have always been. As you suspected in your previous email, you've been banned and it was not because you "didn't follow the party line" as you suggested in your previous email. There's not such a thing as a party line in the group, I think you know pretty well why if you read my answer to one of your last post. If you still don't know why, let me know off line so spare this list from this. 



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida



--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>

Subject: Where did ZBAG go?

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 10:11 AM



 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>



As I mentioned in another post ZBAG wasn't on my list of Yahoo Groups this AM. But I can't find it at all on Yahoo now.



http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=ZBAG



--------

W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

601XL Under Construction

See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronicssp; --> http======================== http://www.matronics.com/contribut===============





	
 	  Quote: 	
		  



arget=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com

blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	


         [quote][b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Where did ZBAG go?

William, 



Since I can't get to it will you please be so kind as to copy and paste me the post that offended you so much?



And I believe the post was in response to Jay M. So I will ask Jay, were you offended?

[quote="William Dominguez"]The group is still in the same place it have always been. As you suspected in your previous email, you've been banned and it was not because you "didn't follow the party line" as you suggested in your previous email. There's not such a thing as a party line in the group, I think you know pretty well why if you read my answer to one of your last post. If you still don't know why, let me know off line so spare this list from this. 



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida



--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Gig Giacona <wrgiacona>

Subject: Where did ZBAG go?

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 10:11 AM



--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <url>



As I mentioned in another post ZBAG wasn't on my list of Yahoo Groups this AM. But I can't find it at all on Yahoo now.



http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=ZBAG



--------

W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

601XL Under Construction

See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronicssp; --> http========================http://www.matronics.com/contribut===============





	
   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:13 am Post subject: Where did ZBAG go?

Works just fine to me. LOL



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZBAG/

Alberto Martin

www.iberplanes.es

Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

 

----------------------------------------------

Zodiac 601 XL Builder

Serial: 6-7011



Tail Kit: Finished

Wings: Not Started

Fuselage: (at) home

Engine: Jabiru 3300

  [quote][b]

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Where did ZBAG go?

 	  Quote: 	
		  On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 07:27:40PM -0000, gig_jess wrote: 

Quote: 

Anti ZBAG hysteria? Really? I think it is a matter of those of us that are 

willing to take "No, there isn't a problem" for an answer as opposed to 

those who only request more evidence once they get the evidence they asked 

for and it doesn't fit in their preconceived idea of what the problem is. 

 

Go back and reread the messages in this forum. Everybody was sure it was 

flutter. The GVT was demanded by those on this list. Got it, results were 

NO and it didn't change a thing. Well, that's not true there were several 

new threads with lists of additional half-baked ideas for modifications 

for imagined problems. 



And Jay, I'm a little disappointed in you. I asked you in a conversation 

in Matronics if you could reproduce the G induced elevator issue and if so 

is it something that you could train someone to deal with. I never got an 

answer to that. 	




Thanks to Jay's post in another thread I have a copy of what got me locked out of ZBAG. There it is above. What exactly offended you ZBAGers so much? 



For a group who's primary mission is to find fault with a design you sure seem pretty thin skinned when someone finds fault with you.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:44 am Post subject: Where did ZBAG go?

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 09:50:50AM -0700, Gig Giacona wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Thanks to Jay's post in another thread I have a copy of what got me locked

 out of ZBAG. There it is above. What exactly offended you ZBAGers so much?


	


For the record, I was not offended.



 	  Quote: 	
		   For a group who's primary mission is to find fault with a design you sure

 seem pretty thin skinned when someone finds fault with you.


	


We've been unjustifiably slammed so hard, so often, and so repeatedly by the

same tiny bach of malcontents who can't conceive that the sainted Chris

Heintz could have made even the tiniest mistake that we're twitchy about it.



The primary mission of ZBAG is not to find fault with the design. The

primary mission of ZBAG is to find out why Zodiacs keep breaking up in

flight. See the difference? That kind of misstatement, even though it's been

repeatedly corrected, is over the line.



I don't believe that finding fault with ZBAG for trying to get to the bottom

of the issue is justified, necessary, or helpful. All it does is split the

Zodiac community down the middle. Nothing good can come of it.



Instead of finding fault with those of us who just want answers -

documented, verifiable, defensible, *provable* answers, not just uninformed

blaming of the pilots involved, which is all we get from Juan and Scott,

among others, to justify their hazardous attitude of invulnerability ("it

won't happen to me") - why not work to come up with an answer that's

supported by more than guesses?

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

William Dominguez

Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:48 am Post subject: Where did ZBAG go?

If you no longer want to be part of the group, it is not difficult four you to remove yourself. If you want me to ban you, just violate the usage guidelines (I will re-post them soon) and you will be banned.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida 

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom



--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Bill Pagan <pdn8r(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Bill Pagan <pdn8r(at)yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Where did ZBAG go?

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 11:12 AM



Hmmmmmmmmmmm......that's interesting William.  If thats the way ZBAG chooses to operate please ban me from the group as well.

  

 Regards,



Bill Pagan EAA Tech Counselor #4395

601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES)

--- On Tue, 6/16/09, William Dominguez <bill_dom(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: William Dominguez <bill_dom(at)yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Where did ZBAG go?

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 10:41 AM



     The group is still in the same place it have always been. As you suspected in your previous email, you've been banned and it was not because you "didn't follow the party line" as you suggested in your previous email. There's not such a thing as a party line in the group, I think you know pretty well why if you read my answer to one of your last post. If you still don't know why, let me know off line so spare this list from this. 



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida



--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>

Subject: Where did ZBAG go?

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 10:11 AM



 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>



As I mentioned in another post ZBAG wasn't on my list of Yahoo Groups this AM. But I can't find it at all on Yahoo now.



http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=ZBAG



--------

W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

601XL Under Construction

See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronicssp; --> http======================== http://www.matronics.com/contribut===============





	
 	  Quote: 	
		  arget=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.comblank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution 	


	


       	  Quote: 	
		  http://forums.matronics.com[/url]<  --> 	


	
  [quote][b]

_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

William Dominguez

Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:49 am Post subject: Where did ZBAG go?

Gig, why do you want to be part of the group anyway? When you have answered that question to yourself you'll be close to the reason why I removed you.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida 

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom



--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Where did ZBAG go?

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 12:50 PM



--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <[url=/mc/compose?to=wrgiacona(at)gmail.com]wrgiacona(at)gmail.com[/url]>

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 07:27:40PM -0000,  gig_jess wrote: 

 Quote: 

 Anti ZBAG hysteria? Really? I think it is a matter of those of us that are 

 willing to take "No, there isn't a problem" for an answer as opposed to 

 those who only request more evidence once they get the evidence they asked 

 for and it doesn't fit in their preconceived idea of what the problem is. 

  

 Go back and reread the messages in this forum. Everybody was sure it was 

 flutter. The GVT was demanded by those on this list. Got it, results were 

 NO and it didn't change a thing. Well, that's not true there were several 

 new threads with lists of additional half-baked ideas for modifications 

 for imagined problems. 

 

 And Jay, I'm a little disappointed in you. I asked you in a conversation 

 in Matronics if you could reproduce the G induced elevator issue and if so 

 is it something that you could train  someone to deal with. I never got an 

 answer to that. 


	




Thanks to Jay's post in another thread I have a copy of what got me locked out of ZBAG. There it is above. What exactly offended you ZBAGers so much? 



For a group who's primary mission is to find fault with a design you sure seem pretty thin skinned when someone finds fault with you.



--------

W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

601XL Under Construction

See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viep;  --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List[b]http://www.matronics.com/con=================





	
  [quote][b]

_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:49 am Post subject: Where did ZBAG go?

Gig, you said it yourself. the group as I understand it is to examine 

possible explanations for the incidents in an effort to make their aircraft 

safer. (which I understand you interpret as a mission to trash the aircraft 

completely) It appears to me that you were likely not there for that reason. 

Many places do not allow what they percieve as disruptive inflences.



I'm not sure what goes on there as I'm not a member, but I guess you could 

start your own Yahoo club and lock the door on anyone who thinks there may 

be some issues but I think the better idea would be to allow them to do 

their thing in peace, hell knows they may eventually find something.



---

William Dominguez

Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:14 am Post subject: Where did ZBAG go?

You got it Dave! and you explained much better than I would have. That is why I asked him to answer himself the question why he wanted to be there. He would have realized that he was not there for the reasons the list was created for in the first place.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom



--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Dave <d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:

[quote]

From: Dave <d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca>

Subject: Re: Re: Where did ZBAG go?

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 1:22 PM



--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave" <[url=/mc/compose?to=d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca]d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca[/url]>



Gig, you said it yourself. the group as I understand it is to examine possible explanations for the incidents in an effort to make their aircraft safer. (which I understand you interpret as a mission to trash the aircraft completely) It appears to me that you were likely not there for that reason. Many places do not allow what they percieve as disruptive inflences.



I'm not sure what goes on there as I'm not a member, but I guess you could start your own Yahoo club and lock the door on anyone who thinks there may be some issues but I think the better idea would be to allow them to do their thing in peace, hell knows they may eventually find something.



---

_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:51 am Post subject: Where did ZBAG go?

as far as I know you´ve received personal emails from the moderator to calm down and respect the list. After all, you were the only member flaming the list. 



Good luck to you, Gig. 

Alberto Martin

www.iberplanes.es

 Igualada - Barcelona - Spain



----------------------------------------------

Zodiac 601 XL Builder

Serial: 6-7011



Tail Kit: Finished

Wings: Not Started

Fuselage: (at) home

Engine: Jabiru 3300

  [quote][b]

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

tigerrick(at)mindspring.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:55 am Post subject: Where did ZBAG go?

Hi, Jay. Permit me to comment on a couple of things...



 	  Quote: 	
		  We've been unjustifiably slammed so hard, so often, and so repeatedly by the

same tiny bach of malcontents who can't conceive that the sainted Chris

Heintz could have made even the tiniest mistake that we're twitchy about it.


	


My understanding is that the 601XL was originally conceived with slower speeds and a bit less horsepower in mind. Flying the airplane faster (well beyond Va) with more powerful engines opens the door to a whole new set of operational considerations. At that point, it's the pilot, not the designer, who is assuming the lion's share of responsibility for safe operation (as it always should be). However, the manufacturer should anticipate that some builders will always want more power and better performance, and should consider that in the mix.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Instead of finding fault with those of us who just want answers -

documented, verifiable, defensible, *provable* answers, not just uninformed

blaming of the pilots involved...


	


There's a disturbing upward tick in LSA accidents recently, and the common thread seems to be aging pilots who have flown Part 23 certified airplanes their entire lives transitioning into LSAs. This isn't limited to the 601, either. The recent crash of the EcoFlyer prototype returning from SnF underscores what happens when an experienced pilot challenges rough air in an airplane built far differently from the aircraft he's typically flown. Personally, I'd like to see more LSA transition training for pilots new to these light airplanes.



And by the way, what is this "tiny bach" you refer to? Are we talking about a dwarf composer?  



Rick Lindstrom

N42KP

d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:22 pm Post subject: Where did ZBAG go?

Ahh, humor! I remember that! "tiny bach" composes classic ringtones.



---

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:53 pm Post subject: Where did ZBAG go?

--

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: Where did ZBAG go?

 	  William Dominguez wrote: 	
		  Gig, why do you want to be part of the group anyway? When you have answered that question to yourself you'll be close to the reason why I removed you. 	




My reason for wanting access to the ZBAG forum is the same now as it has been from the beginning. To keep an eye on what you guys are saying about a plane that I have several years and many thousands of dollars invested in. Also I'd like the opportunity to counter some of the hype that your members are spreading.



That does not violate any set of terms of use you have ever published. And neither did the post that got me kicked off.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:09 pm Post subject: Where did ZBAG go?

Seems to be a lot of bach and forth on this issue.



On Tuesday 16 June 2009 15:09, Dave wrote:



[quote] Ahh, humor! I remember that! "tiny bach" composes classic ringtones.



 ---

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:12 pm Post subject: Where did ZBAG go?

Zenith builders Analysis Group, and you don't want a zenith builder there?



do not archive

 On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com (wrgiacona(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com (wrgiacona(at)gmail.com)>

 

 

 

William Dominguez wrote:

 > Gig, why do you want to be part of the group anyway? When you have answered that question to yourself you'll be close to the reason why I removed you.

 

 

 My reason for wanting access to the ZBAG forum is the same now as it has been from the beginning. To keep an eye on what you guys are saying about a plane that I have several years and many thousands of dollars invested in. Also I'd like the opportunity to counter some of the hype that your members are spreading.

  

 That does not violate any set of terms of use you have ever published. And neither did the post that got me kicked off.

 

 --------

 W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

 601XL Under Construction

 See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248561#248561

 



 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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