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cookwithgas
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 159
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 Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
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| ernieth(at)gmail.com wrote: | Zenith builders�Analysis Group,�and�you�don't�want�a�zenith�builder�there?
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Ohhh! That explains it then. I thought it was "Zenith Bashers Anonymous Group" ZBAG. My bad.
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d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: Where did ZBAG go? |
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Well that's clever, you have effectively discredited any thoughts,
discussion and efforts toward greater safety and understanding by calling
them names. What will you do for ActII?
Or maybe it's just not that effective a tactic.
---
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ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:06 pm Post subject: Where did ZBAG go? |
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or maybe the truth hurts
do not archive
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:51 PM, Dave <d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca (d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca)> wrote:
[quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave" <d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca (d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca)>
Well that's clever, you have effectively discredited any thoughts, discussion and efforts toward greater safety and understanding by calling them names. What will you do for ActII?
Or maybe it's just not that effective a tactic.
---
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Gig Giacona
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
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| d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico wrote: | Well that's clever, you have effectively discredited any thoughts,
discussion and efforts toward greater safety and understanding by calling
them names. What will you do for ActII?
Or maybe it's just not that effective a tactic.
--- |
No ZBAG discredits themselves when they ban anything that doesn't fit the party line. Please look up thread and show me anything in my post that would warrant a ban.
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_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR |
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William Dominguez
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:38 pm Post subject: Where did ZBAG go? |
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Gig, did your read Dave comment? that is why you got banned. He got it, and he is not even a member.
The group have a goal and the record shows you don't believe in the honesty of that goal. When you characterize the group as a witch hunt, you just gave away your real believe about the group. There where other post also but I won't discuss them here. The term of use does address that.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 6:56 PM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <[url=/mc/compose?to=wrgiacona(at)gmail.com]wrgiacona(at)gmail.com[/url]>
William Dominguez wrote:
| Quote: | Gig, why do you want to be part of the group anyway? When you have answered that question to yourself you'll be close to the reason why I removed you.
|
My reason for wanting access to the ZBAG forum is the same now as it has been from the beginning. To keep an eye on what you guys are saying about a plane that I have several years and many thousands of dollars invested in. Also I'd like the opportunity to counter some of the hype that your members are spreading.
That does not violate any set of terms of use you have ever published. And neither did the post that got me kicked off.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248561#nics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/========================http://forums.sp; - List Contribution Web Sbsp; > ht
|
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom |
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ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:05 pm Post subject: Where did ZBAG go? |
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To bad you cant fight this out were it belongs on the ZBAG list.
I am glad your "builders" list is nice and calm without dissent.
here we use the delete key
Do not archive
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 8:37 PM, William Dominguez <bill_dom(at)yahoo.com (bill_dom(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote] Gig, did your read Dave comment? that is why you got banned. He got it, and he is not even a member.
The group have a goal and the record shows you don't believe in the honesty of that goal. When you characterize the group as a witch hunt, you just gave away your real believe about the group. There where other post also but I won't discuss them here. The term of use does address that.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com (wrgiacona(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
[b]
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d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:05 pm Post subject: Where did ZBAG go? |
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On the other hand since your stated objective is not to participate or help
in any way, but to actually work against them it should not be surprising
that they do not wish to assist you in your efforts. Frankly I think having
a contrary voice is worthwhile, but I'm not the gatekeeper and have no idea
what you've been up to. A healthy discussion is worthwhile, even if it gets
a little too passionate from time to time. The goals should in theory be
that same, to fly a good sound and reasonably safe aircraft. The "wings fall
off" statements are not supported, but the source of those statements was
not ZBAG. The statements exist as a consequence of the airframe failures, as
does ZBAG itself. Let them discuss the issues as they care to without
interference.
The source of the rumors and potential bad reputation is not ZBAG, the fault
lies solely in the unusual number of incidents, no matter the cause. Until
they stop the situation will only get worse. I think ZBAG has had some small
effect in getting additional testing done, not as much as aviation
authorities in other countries, but some. That testing has resulted in
modifications to the design so that it is now potentially safer. The
incidents may stop now. I sincerely hope they do, not for the aircraft's
sake, nor for any financial benefit, but because pilots families have lost
members. So for any small part that the Analysis Group has played in making
XL's safer, I applaud them.
---
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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William Dominguez
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:35 pm Post subject: Where did ZBAG go? |
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What happened to Scott is that he made some recent trips in his plane and some other pilots hurt his feelings by questioning the safety of his plane. Now he is angry mad and he need something to blame for this experience so he choose ZBAG as a kicking bag. Lets face it, ZBAG is an easy target, it even end with bag as with kicking bag. So lets give him some space while he get it all out and heals himself.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601 blah blah you know the rest
time to put the do not archive in this useless thread.
--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Dave <d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
[quote]
From: Dave <d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 7:51 PM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave" <[url=/mc/compose?to=d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca]d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca[/url]>
Well that's clever, you have effectively discredited any thoughts, discussion and efforts toward greater safety and understanding by calling them names. What will you do for ActII?
Or maybe it's just not that effective a tactic.
---
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom |
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William Dominguez
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:35 pm Post subject: Where did ZBAG go? |
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it doesn't when the truth is lacking
William Dominguez
do not archive
--- On Tue, 6/16/09, ernie <ernieth(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]
From: ernie <ernieth(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 8:05 PM
or maybe the truth hurts
do not archive
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:51 PM, Dave <[url=/mc/compose?to=d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca]d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca[/url]> wrote:
[quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave" <[url=/mc/compose?to=d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca]d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca[/url]>
Well that's clever, you have effectively discredited any thoughts, discussion and efforts toward greater safety and understanding by calling them names. What will you do for ActII?
Or maybe it's just not that effective a tactic.
---
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom |
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ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:53 pm Post subject: Where did ZBAG go? |
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doth protest too much
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:34 PM, William Dominguez <bill_dom(at)yahoo.com (bill_dom(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote]it doesn't when the truth is lacking
William Dominguez
do not archive
--- On Tue, 6/16/09, ernie <ernieth(at)gmail.com (ernieth(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]
From: ernie <ernieth(at)gmail.com (ernieth(at)gmail.com)>
Subject: Re: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)
Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 8:05 PM
or maybe the truth hurts
do not archive
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:51 PM, Dave <d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
[quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave" <d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca>
Well that's clever, you have effectively discredited any thoughts, discussion and efforts toward greater safety and understanding by calling them names. What will you do for ActII?
Or maybe it's just not that effective a tactic.
---
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
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William Dominguez
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:39 am Post subject: Where did ZBAG go? |
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"Dissent" and "fight" are not the same thing. You can dissent without resorting to fight.
William Dominguez
--- On Tue, 6/16/09, ernie <ernieth(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: ernie <ernieth(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 9:01 PM
To bad you cant fight this out were it belongs on the ZBAG list.
I am glad your "builders" list is nice and calm without dissent.
here we use the delete key
Do not archive
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 8:37 PM, William Dominguez <[url=/mc/compose?to=bill_dom(at)yahoo.com]bill_dom(at)yahoo.com[/url]> wrote:
| Quote: | Gig, did your read Dave comment? that is why you got banned. He got it, and he is not even a member.
The group have a goal and the record shows you don't believe in the honesty of that goal. When you characterize the group as a witch hunt, you just gave away your real believe about the group. There where other post also but I won't discuss them here. The term of use does address that.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Gig Giacona <[url=/mc/compose?to=wrgiacona(at)gmail.com]wrgiacona(at)gmail.com[/url]> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Gig Giacona <[url=/mc/compose?to=wrgiacona(at)gmail.com]wrgiacona(at)gmail.com[/url]>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
To: [url=/mc/compose?to=zenith-list(at)matronics.com]zenith-list(at)matronics.com[/url]
Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 6:56 PM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>
William Dominguez wrote:
> Gig, why do you want to be part of the group anyway? When you have answered that question to yourself you'll be close to the reason why I removed you.
My reason for wanting access to the ZBAG forum is the same now as it has been from the beginning. To keep an eye on what you guys are saying about a plane that I have several years and many thousands of dollars invested in. Also I'd like the opportunity to counter some of the hype that your members are spreading.
That does not violate any set of terms of use you have ever published. And neither did the post that got me kicked off.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248561#nics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/========================http://forums.sp; - List Contribution Web Sbsp; > ht
|
| Quote: | | arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-Listtp://forums.matronics.com_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
nk" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matrl="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http:======================== |
|
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom |
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Gig Giacona
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:38 am Post subject: Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
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So it is the position of ZBAG that any opposing viewpoint is considered "work aginst them"? That's pretty much what I expected. Please note that in the post where I used the term witch hunt I was responding to a post that had the phrase, "Anti-ZBAG hysteria."
I have gone out of my way while on ZBAG to NOT attack any individual even though there have been times when such an attack have been in order. Also note that the primary person I was responding to Jay M. has stated here that he was not offended by my post.
If ZBAG can't deal with strongly held dissenting opinion then that must mean either you are not comfortable in your position and are afraid of such an opinion being voiced in your forum or you have some other reason to not have it heard.
The stated purpose of ZBAG is to assist in finding if there is a problem with the 601XL. It has NEVER been my position that there is no issue. I just have not accepted that it is a design issue that needs a mechanical fix but rather a flight characteristic issue that can be trained for. In fact, in the post that got be kicked I was asking a CFI-S about that specifically. I also have an issue with the idea of less than thought out "fixes" being spread and voiced and spoke out against that and will continue to do so as long as I have a computer and access to the Internet.
| d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico wrote: | On the other hand since your stated objective is not to participate or help
in any way, but to actually work against them it should not be surprising
that they do not wish to assist you in your efforts. Frankly I think having
a contrary voice is worthwhile, but I'm not the gatekeeper and have no idea
what you've been up to. A healthy discussion is worthwhile, even if it gets
a little too passionate from time to time. The goals should in theory be
that same, to fly a good sound and reasonably safe aircraft. The "wings fall
off" statements are not supported, but the source of those statements was
not ZBAG. The statements exist as a consequence of the airframe failures, as
does ZBAG itself. Let them discuss the issues as they care to without
interference.
The source of the rumors and potential bad reputation is not ZBAG, the fault
lies solely in the unusual number of incidents, no matter the cause. Until
they stop the situation will only get worse. I think ZBAG has had some small
effect in getting additional testing done, not as much as aviation
authorities in other countries, but some. That testing has resulted in
modifications to the design so that it is now potentially safer. The
incidents may stop now. I sincerely hope they do, not for the aircraft's
sake, nor for any financial benefit, but because pilots families have lost
members. So for any small part that the Analysis Group has played in making
XL's safer, I applaud them.
--- |
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
William Dominguez
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:09 am Post subject: Where did ZBAG go? |
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Gig,
I wasn't planning on doing this, but since you can stop talking about it, here I go.
This is the message that got you banned, the one posted by Jay was close but this one is the real cause.
Your message was in response to this one;
> Why do you say "uninfomed guesses"? Do we need to bring in >Messrs > Science, Merriam, and Webster again?
And you responded with this;
Hey ZBAG is the group that hired the engineer and didn't like the "There is no problem" answer, went out and found somebody who would say what you wanted and gave that info to the NTSB and now are not happy that Zenair did exactly what you asked for by conducting GVTs because they too said "There is no problem." Keep trying and I'm sure you will find some other yahoo that will tell you what you want to hear. I just hope it isn't some half-ass fix that our members and others stick on their planes and causes somebody to die needlessly.
Now you tell me, are these the words of someone with simply "opposing viewpoints". Telling the list to look for pilot error when most where looking for flutter, that is a different viewpoint and I welcome it. But what you say above is far from "a different viewpoint". Not only you misrepresent some facts (not the first time) but you do so with disdain toward the group in general.
In case you didn't read my answer to that post in ZBAG, here it is;
I know you like to portray the ZBAG effort as a witch hunt but get some facts before I decide whether or not you should stay on this list.
The first engineer hired by ZBAG did not performed a flutter analysis, this was something that we knew he was not going to do. His job centered around structural analisys only. Then comes the second engineer who came to us (we didn't look for him) and offered to do both, structural and flutter analysis for free. The structural analisys came out similar to the first one and his flutter analysis came out as we all know. This is hardly anything that could be interpreted as "...didn't like the "There is no problem" answer, went out and found somebody who would say what you wanted...."
This list welcomes any views, whether you believe in pilot error or structural flaw. There are plenty of good arguments to be made for each view, but questioning the intentions of the group and spreading distorted facts are not one of them.
As a matter of principle, since you no longer believe in the reason for this group, why are you still a member?
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
--- On Wed, 6/17/09, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]
From: Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 9:38 AM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>
So it is the position of ZBAG that any opposing viewpoint is considered "work aginst them"? That's pretty much what I expected. Please note that in the post where I used the term witch hunt I was responding to a post that had the phrase, "Anti-ZBAG hysteria."
I have gone out of my way while on ZBAG to NOT attack any individual even though there have been times when such an attack have been in order. Also note that the primary person I was responding to Jay M. has stated here that he was not offended by my post.
If ZBAG can't deal with strongly held dissenting opinion then that must mean either you are not comfortable in your position and are afraid of such an opinion being voiced in your forum or you have some other reason to not have it heard.
The stated purpose of ZBAG is to assist in finding if there is a problem with the 601XL. It has NEVER been my position that there is no issue. I just have not accepted that it is a design issue that needs a mechanical fix but rather a flight characteristic issue that can be trained for. In fact, in the post that got be kicked I was asking a CFI-S about that specifically. I also have an issue with the idea of less than thought out "fixes" being spread and voiced and spoke out against that and will continue to do so as long as I have a computer and access to the Internet.
d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico wrote:
| Quote: | On the other hand since your stated objective is not to participate or help
in any way, but to actually work against them it should not be surprising
that they do not wish to assist you in your efforts. Frankly I think having
a contrary voice is worthwhile, but I'm not the gatekeeper and have no idea
what you've been up to. A healthy discussion is worthwhile, even if it gets
a little too passionate from time to time. The goals should in theory be
that same, to fly a good sound and reasonably safe aircraft. The "wings fall
off" statements are not supported, but the source of those statements was
not ZBAG. The statements exist as a consequence of the airframe failures, as
does ZBAG itself. Let them discuss the issues as they care to without
interference.
The source of the rumors and potential bad reputation is not ZBAG, the fault
lies solely in the unusual number of incidents, no matter the cause. Until
they stop the situation will only get worse. I think ZBAG has had some small
effect in getting additional testing done, not as much as aviation
authorities in other countries, but some. That testing has resulted in
modifications to the design so that it is now potentially safer. The
incidents may stop now. I sincerely hope they do, not for the aircraft's
sake, nor for any financial benefit, but because pilots families have lost
members. So for any small part that the Analysis Group has played in making
XL's safer, I applaud them.
---
|
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248686#248686http://www.matronics.co========================http://forums.matronics.com [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom |
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Gig Giacona
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:43 am Post subject: Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
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Great William I didn't see that message and I'd love to reply to your position. I will do this in the open because I have nothing to hide. My position is clear and always has been. I do apologize for having to use this forum to do this but I can't do it at ZBAG.
My post that you quoted included the line I was responding to. | Quote: | | "> Why do you say "uninfomed guesses"? Do we need to bring in >Messrs > Science, Merriam, and Webster again?" |
Is that the response of someone who wants to have a reasonable discussion of the issue? Did that person get banned? Of course he didn't. And the "uniformed guesses" that he quotes me stating was all of the many ideas that were posted after the GVT results came out with other things that might be wrong with the design, including fixes that would either be useless at best and dangerous at worst.
As far as the rest of my response I stand behind it 100%.
ZBAG hired an engineer and he said there was NO design problem. Never once did one member of ZBAG make a post that even hinted that you would except this answer and shut down your witch hunt.
You then found, by whatever means, another engineer who doesn't seem willing to stand behind his work who says yes there are design problems and one of them is a flutter issue.
You then sent this information to the NTSB and for some reason they lapped it up like a thirsty dog. I am looking forward to finding out if you forwarded the information from the first engineer who said there wasn't a problem. That will be very telling.
Meanwhile, ZBAG members are banging their hammers for Zenith to perform the GVT. When Zenith does and the information refutes the pet theory of flutter does ZBAG back off at all? Again, the answer is no. No one at ZBAG even voices any questions that if the second engineer was wrong about that he could well be wrong about anything he produced.
The fact is that anyone can say anything negative they want about the design of the 601XL but if anyone stoops so low as to speak ill of ZBAG as a group they are banned. (And let it be very clear that I never posted a single post that attacked a ZBAG member personally.) That is the very definition of self serving hypocrisy.
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR |
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William Dominguez
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:51 pm Post subject: Where did ZBAG go? |
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Gig,
You are really amusing and I'm not being sarcastic, take it as a compliment. You act as if you are in a public trial facing a possible jail sentence. You just lost access to a forum, not a big deal, one you no longer believe in its premise in the first place. You seem to enjoy arguing as a hobby. I no longer willing to entertain this side of you. At least not in this topic. Time to move on.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
--- On Wed, 6/17/09, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]
From: Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Where did ZBAG go?
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 2:43 PM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <[url=/mc/compose?to=wrgiacona(at)gmail.com]wrgiacona(at)gmail.com[/url]>
Great William I didn't see that message and I'd love to reply to your position. I will do this in the open because I have nothing to hide. My position is clear and always has been. I do apologize for having to use this forum to do this but I can't do it at ZBAG.
My post that you quoted included the line I was responding to.
| Quote: | "> Why do you say "uninfomed guesses"? Do we need to bring in >Messrs > Science, Merriam, and Webster again?"
|
Is that the response of someone who wants to have a reasonable discussion of the issue? Did that person get banned? Of course he didn't. And the "uniformed guesses" that he quotes me stating was all of the many ideas that were posted after the GVT results came out with other things that might be wrong with the design, including fixes that would either be useless at best and dangerous at worst.
As far as the rest of my response I stand behind it 100%.
ZBAG hired an engineer and he said there was NO design problem. Never once did one member of ZBAG make a post that even hinted that you would except this answer and shut down your witch hunt.
You then found, by whatever means, another engineer who doesn't seem willing to stand behind his work who says yes there are design problems and one of them is a flutter issue.
You then sent this information to the NTSB and for some reason they lapped it up like a thirsty dog. I am looking forward to finding out if you forwarded the information from the first engineer who said there wasn't a problem. That will be very telling.
Meanwhile, ZBAG members are banging their hammers for Zenith to perform the GVT. When Zenith does and the information refutes the pet theory of flutter does ZBAG back off at all? Again, the answer is no. No one at ZBAG even voices any questions that if the second engineer was wrong about that he could well be wrong about anything he produced.
The fact is that anyone can say anything negative they want about the design of the 601XL but if anyone stoops so low as to speak ill of ZBAG as a group they are banned. (And let it be very clear that I never posted a single post that attacked a ZBAG member personally.) That is the very definition of self serving hypocrisy.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=248744#248========================http://www.matronics.com/Nav= - MATRONICS cs.com" bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Adontribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom |
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Gig Giacona
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: Where did ZBAG go? |
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I'm glad that you think my wanting to be able to read and keep tabs on how your group is trashing an airframe that I have a lot of time and money invested in is amusing.
But keep laughing. I think that most people here will see that your laughing at this point because you can't counter any statement I made in the post which is the same problem you have over on ZBAG the difference there is you can just ban any voices that don't sing in harmony with your own.
Nothing is more silly than silly laughter.
- Catullus
&
"So, to keep tongues from wagging,
I laugh when I'm crying, bitterly
And gaily sing when my heart is sad."
De Pisan, Christine, Rondeau XI
| William Dominguez wrote: | Gig,
You are really amusing and I'm not being sarcastic, take it as a compliment. You act as if you are in a public trial facing a possible jail sentence. You just lost access to a forum, not a big deal, one you no longer believe in its premise in the first place. You seem to enjoy arguing as a hobby. I no longer willing to entertain this side of you. At least not in this topic. Time to move on.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom |
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR |
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