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john.marzulli(at)gmail.co
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 Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:39 pm Post subject: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions? |
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I found a MS Sidewinder 3D Pro joystick for a few bucks. It is comfortable and and used a gameport connector so I figured it would be simple on the inside.
After ripping it apart I found that the grip had 8 buttons: A trigger, 3 on the top and a hat stick.
There are eight buttons, but only six wires leading to the board that the momentary switches are mounted on.
After spending some time with a multimeter I found that the four traditional buttons used a red colored wire as a common power and four separate grounds ( yellow, blue, green and orange ).
The hat switch used a common brown wire for power and the same 4 colored grounds! My guess is that power was switched quickly between the red and brown wires and one of the ICs on the main board kept track of the previous buttons states.
So my question - has anyone used this stick successfully as a grip? If I only wanted two buttons then this would be easy, but I want to use the four main buttons plus the hat for the elevator trim.
Any advice?
Thanks,
John Marzulli
http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/
http://MarzulliPhoto.net/
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
[quote][b]
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dougsnash
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 281
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| Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:39 am Post subject: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions? |
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John, I won't claim to be an expert in computer joysticks but I think I have some idea what is going on. You have hit on what in known in digital electronic as the "active state". In this case since the common wires are hot, this means that the joystick is "active high". Essentially, when you connect the pin of the chip to a high value voltage (ususally +5V), then that function will be active.
I'm basing this strictly on what you described and not on any actual measurements. You should be able to connect the common "power" wires to ground and then connect each of the wires to the functions that you want them to run ie, trigger to radio PTT, etc. Essentially by doing this, you will convert the joystick from active high to active low which is what our airplanes typically use.
Hope this helps
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Sctartch builder
NW Ontario, Canada
Do not archive
--- On Sun, 6/21/09, John Marzulli <john.marzulli(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | From: John Marzulli <john.marzulli(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions?
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Received: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 2:38 AM
I found a MS Sidewinder 3D Pro
joystick for a few bucks. It is comfortable and and used a
gameport connector so I figured it would be simple on the
inside.
After ripping it apart I found that the grip had 8 buttons:
A trigger, 3 on the top and a hat stick.
There are eight buttons, but only six wires leading to the
board that the momentary switches are mounted on.
After spending some time with a multimeter I found that the
four traditional buttons used a red colored wire as a common
power and four separate grounds ( yellow, blue, green and
orange ).
The hat switch used a common brown wire for power and the
same 4 colored grounds! My guess is that power was switched
quickly between the red and brown wires and one of the ICs
on the main board kept track of the previous buttons
states.
So my question - has anyone used this stick successfully as
a grip? If I only wanted two buttons then this would be
easy, but I want to use the four main buttons plus the hat
for the elevator trim.
Any advice?
Thanks,
John Marzulli
|
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ch701builder(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:53 am Post subject: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions? |
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John,
I would take it that the 4-wires are not ground, but used as 4 separate switch inputs. That way you can use an IC that has either internal pull-ups or pull-down resistors to detect switch closure. Depending on how much current the switches can handle, and how much current your load is, you can use the common "red" as power, and then wire up each circuit to drive with each switch, "however, see what the current rating is on the switches and your load before attempting this". If there is too much current draw, than the wire will act as a fuseable link, and/or your switch will burn up.
Keith
****************************************************************
From: John Marzulli <john.marzulli(at)gmail.com>
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 1:38:21 AM
Subject: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions?
I found a MS Sidewinder 3D Pro joystick for a few bucks. It is comfortable and and used a gameport connector so I figured it would be simple on the inside.
After ripping it apart I found that the grip had 8 buttons: A trigger, 3 on the top and a hat stick.
There are eight buttons, but only six wires leading to the board that the momentary switches are mounted on.
After spending some time with a multimeter I found that the four traditional buttons used a red colored wire as a common power and four separate grounds ( yellow, blue, green and orange ).
The hat switch used a common brown wire for power and the same 4 colored grounds! My guess is that power was switched quickly between the red and brown wires and one of the ICs on the main board kept track of the previous buttons states.
So my question - has anyone used this stick successfully as a grip? If I only wanted two buttons then this would be easy, but I want to use the four main buttons plus the hat for the elevator trim.
Any advice?
Thanks,
John Marzulli
http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/
http://MarzulliPhoto.net/
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
[quote]
[b]
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ch701builder(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:06 am Post subject: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions? |
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I think, that if the PTT switch can have a common ground, than you can use other switches that are tied to the "Common" wire, but, if the PTT is used as a separate switch, then only one switch can be used from the switch matrix. It might be easy enough to wire an individual switch alone and use it for the PTT function.
Does this make sense?
I have not gotten far enough to worry about PTT circuits yet, so I don't know if one of the legs from the switch is common ground or not.
Keith
*********************************************************
From: MacDonald Doug <dougsnash(at)yahoo.com>
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 7:32:06 AM
Subject: Re: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions?
--> Zenith701801-List message posted by: MacDonald Doug <dougsnash(at)yahoo.com (dougsnash(at)yahoo.com)>
John, I won't claim to be an expert in computer joysticks but I think I have some idea what is going on. You have hit on what in known in digital electronic as the "active state". In this case since the common wires are hot, this means that the joystick is "active high". Essentially, when you connect the pin of the chip to a high value voltage (ususally +5V), then that function will be active.
I'm basing this strictly on what you described and not on any actual measurements. You should be able to connect the common "power" wires to ground and then connect each of the wires to the functions that you want them to run ie, trigger to radio PTT, etc. Essentially by doing this, you will convert the joystick from active high to active low which is what our airplanes typically use.
Hope this helps
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Sctartch builder
NW Ontario, Canada
Do not archive
--- On Sun, 6/21/09, John Marzulli <john.marzulli(at)gmail.com (john.marzulli(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] From: John Marzulli <john.marzulli(at)gmail.com (john.marzulli(at)gmail.com)>
Subject: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions?
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com (zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com)
Received: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 2:38 AM
I found a MS Sidewinder 3D Pro
joystick for a few bucks. It is comfortable and and used a
gameport connector so I figured it would be simple on the
inside.
After ripping it apart I found that the grip had 8 buttons:
A trigger, 3 on the top and a hat stick.
There are eight buttons, but only six wires leading to the
board that the momentary switches are mounted on.
After spending some time with a multimeter I found that the
four traditional buttons used a red colored wire as a common
power and four separate grounds ( yellow, blue, green and
orange ).
The hat switch used a common brown wire for power and the
same 4 colored grounds! My guess is that power was switched
quickly between the red and brown wires and one of the ICs
on the main board kept track of the previous buttons
states.
So my question - has anyone used this stick successfully as
a grip? If I only wanted two buttons then this would be
easy, but I want to use the four main [quote][b]
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dougsnash
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 281
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| Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:42 am Post subject: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions? |
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Kieth, generally speaking, most intercom/radios short one of the conductors in the mic plug to the mic plug ground to activate the PTT function. I know that with my Flightcom intercom, I have a pilot and a co-pilot PTT wire but they return back to one common ground point. This meant that I only had to run one ground wire from my "Y" stick back the my intercom.
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Scratch Builder
NW Ontario, Canada
Do not archive
--- On Sun, 6/21/09, Keith Ashcraft <ch701builder(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | From: Keith Ashcraft <ch701builder(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions?
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Received: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 8:58 AM
I think, that if the PTT
switch can have a common ground, than you can use other
switches that are tied to the "Common" wire, but,
if the PTT is used as a separate switch, then only one
switch can be used from the switch matrix. It might be easy
enough to wire an individual switch alone and use it for the
PTT function.
Does this make sense?
I have not gotten far enough to worry about PTT circuits
yet, so I don't know if one of the legs from the
switch is common ground or not.
Keith
|
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craig(at)craigandjean.com
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| Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:05 am Post subject: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions? |
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It sounds like it is wired as a switch matrix, 2 by 4 in this case. This is a common approach to save wires on a keyboard. On your 102 key PC keyboard there are not 102 wires running to the encoder IC. The keys are scanned by selectively powering the inputs on one side of the matrix and watching which wire on the output side is active. This works great until you close more than one switch at the same time. Then you get a “sneak path” through the matrix and everything gets confused.
If all you have are single contact closures then you will need some external logic or relays to operate the trim servo. It needs either a DPDT or two SPDT switches to be able to apply power with one polarity or another. Take a look at the schematics on the Ray Allen site to see what I mean. Of course if you are going to have two trim “stations” (like pilot/copilot or stick/panel) then you will need some relays anyway.
In general I wouldn’t use the MS stick. The Ray Allen grips are not that expensive and use industrial grade sealed switches. They also easily clamp to the stick tube.
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Marzulli
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 1:38 AM
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions?
I found a MS Sidewinder 3D Pro joystick for a few bucks. It is comfortable and and used a gameport connector so I figured it would be simple on the inside.
After ripping it apart I found that the grip had 8 buttons: A trigger, 3 on the top and a hat stick.
There are eight buttons, but only six wires leading to the board that the momentary switches are mounted on.
After spending some time with a multimeter I found that the four traditional buttons used a red colored wire as a common power and four separate grounds ( yellow, blue, green and orange ).
The hat switch used a common brown wire for power and the same 4 colored grounds! My guess is that power was switched quickly between the red and brown wires and one of the ICs on the main board kept track of the previous buttons states.
So my question - has anyone used this stick successfully as a grip? If I only wanted two buttons then this would be easy, but I want to use the four main buttons plus the hat for the elevator trim.
Any advice?
Thanks,
John Marzulli
http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/
http://MarzulliPhoto.net/
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
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john.marzulli(at)gmail.co
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| Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:22 am Post subject: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions? |
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I spent 8 years as a video game programmer, so using this stick would be one of those little touches... and it is just plain comfortable.
The four wires are indeed grounds. There is a diode on the little mini PCB board.
I think the main IC in the base alternated the common power switch and then just kept the results in 8 bits of RAM so a pulled trigger would persist when power was alternated away.
John Marzulli
http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/
http://MarzulliPhoto.net/
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 10:03 AM, Craig Payne <craig(at)craigandjean.com (craig(at)craigandjean.com)> wrote:
[quote]
It sounds like it is wired as a switch matrix, 2 by 4 in this case. This is a common approach to save wires on a keyboard. On your 102 key PC keyboard there are not 102 wires running to the encoder IC. The keys are scanned by selectively powering the inputs on one side of the matrix and watching which wire on the output side is active. This works great until you close more than one switch at the same time. Then you get a “sneak path” through the matrix and everything gets confused.
If all you have are single contact closures then you will need some external logic or relays to operate the trim servo. It needs either a DPDT or two SPDT switches to be able to apply power with one polarity or another. Take a look at the schematics on the Ray Allen site to see what I mean. Of course if you are going to have two trim “stations” (like pilot/copilot or stick/panel) then you will need some relays anyway.
In general I wouldn’t use the MS stick. The Ray Allen grips are not that expensive and use industrial grade sealed switches. They also easily clamp to the stick tube.
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of John Marzulli
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 1:38 AM
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com (zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Successful Joystick -> Grip Conversions?
I found a MS Sidewinder 3D Pro joystick for a few bucks. It is comfortable and and used a gameport connector so I figured it would be simple on the inside.
After ripping it apart I found that the grip had 8 buttons: A trigger, 3 on the top and a hat stick.
There are eight buttons, but only six wires leading to the board that the momentary switches are mounted on.
After spending some time with a multimeter I found that the four traditional buttons used a red colored wire as a common power and four separate grounds ( yellow, blue, green and orange ).
The hat switch used a common brown wire for power and the same 4 colored grounds! My guess is that power was switched quickly between the red and brown wires and one of the ICs on the main board kept track of the previous buttons states.
So my question - has anyone used this stick successfully as a grip? If I only wanted two buttons then this would be easy, but I want to use the four main buttons plus the hat for the elevator trim.
Any advice?
Thanks,
John Marzulli
http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/
http://MarzulliPhoto.net/
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
012 34567 89
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