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Elevator travel vs. stick grip clearance

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Walt Fuller

Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 9

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:03 am Post subject: Elevator travel vs. stick grip clearance

Hello all,

             My name is Walt Fuller and I am a new member of this forum. My father (capt. delta retired, 757-767 ) and I are currently in the final year of construction of one of Van's RV 10 homebuilts. My father opted

to install modified sick grips complete with trim controls, autopilot, com

buttons. The specs call for 30 degrees of up elevator and 25 degrees down. We "zeroed" the calibration tool and found that the 30 degree up elevator was right on the money. However, the stick grips bottomed out on the instrument panel when full forward stick was applied, with only about 20 degrees of down elevator. With the airflow controls pulled fully out ( alternate air, etc.), we got less than 18 degrees of down elevator!

We attempted to make some adjustments to the eye bolts between the

torque tubes and gained some down elevator but lost the up elevator.

Even with the stick grips off, the sticks still hit the airflow controls before

the 25 degree down was reached. I think our only option is to cut the sticks down to allow the top of the grips to pass under the panel. Has anyone else run into this scenario and is there an adjustment that can be made?  Thank you for your response.

p.s. We built, flew, and sold one of Van's rv 4's back in the late '80's - early '90's ...N52FK  A very fun airplane!

gengrumpy(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:22 am Post subject: Elevator travel vs. stick grip clearance

Does your panel stick out past where it's designed?



I have infinity grips on my sticks, sticks not cut down, and the only  

thing one stick grip hits is my flaps switch on the panel.



No problem with any elevator authority, so you must have done  

something different with how far your panel sticks out.



All my pull out controls are in the center of the panel over the  

tunnel, so no way to interfere with the sticks.



grumpy

N184JM



do not archive



On Jun 21, 2009, at 1:03 PM, Walt Fuller wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hello all,

             My name is Walt Fuller and I am a new member of this  

 forum. My father (capt. delta retired, 757-767 ) and I are currently  

 in the final year of construction of one of Van's RV 10 homebuilts.  

 My father opted

 to install modified sick grips complete with trim controls,  

 autopilot, com

 buttons. The specs call for 30 degrees of up elevator and 25 degrees  

 down. We "zeroed" the calibration tool and found that the 30 degree  

 up elevator was right on the money. However, the stick grips  

 bottomed out on the instrument panel when full forward stick was  

 applied, with only about 20 degrees of down elevator. With the  

 airflow controls pulled fully out ( alternate air, etc.), we got  

 less than 18 degrees of down elevator!

 We attempted to make some adjustments to the eye bolts between the

 torque tubes and gained some down elevator but lost the up elevator.

 Even with the stick grips off, the sticks still hit the airflow  

 controls before

 the 25 degree down was reached. I think our only option is to cut  

 the sticks down to allow the top of the grips to pass under the  

 panel. Has anyone else run into this scenario and is there an  

 adjustment that can be made?  Thank you for your response.

 p.s. We built, flew, and sold one of Van's rv 4's back in the late  

 '80's - early '90's ...N52FK  A very fun airplane!





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 49364#249364

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:44 am Post subject: Elevator travel vs. stick grip clearance

I initially used the stock panel and bracket for the engine controls with Van's wood grips.  I could not get full travel on the left stick without hitting the alt air knob.  So I moved the bracket to the right about 1", and found then that the right stick would actually get caught on the left side of the prop control.  The wood grips are as low as possible.

 

I finally installed the throttle quadrant, which is quite a bit narrower, and that solved everything.



Dave



On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Walt Fuller <w_fuller1(at)verizon.net (w_fuller1(at)verizon.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "Walt Fuller" <w_fuller1(at)verizon.net (w_fuller1(at)verizon.net)>

  

 Hello all,

              My name is Walt Fuller and I am a new member of this forum. My father (capt. delta retired, 757-767 ) and I are currently in the final year of construction of one of Van's RV 10 homebuilts. My father opted

  to install modified sick grips complete with trim controls, autopilot, com

 buttons. The specs call for 30 degrees of up elevator and 25 degrees down. We "zeroed" the calibration tool and found that the 30 degree up elevator was right on the money. However, the stick grips bottomed out on the instrument panel when full forward stick was applied, with only about 20 degrees of down elevator. With the airflow controls pulled fully out ( alternate air, etc.), we got less than 18 degrees of down elevator!

  We attempted to make some adjustments to the eye bolts between the

 torque tubes and gained some down elevator but lost the up elevator.

 Even with the stick grips off, the sticks still hit the airflow controls before

 the 25 degree down was reached. I think our only option is to cut the sticks down to allow the top of the grips to pass under the panel. Has anyone else run into this scenario and is there an adjustment that can be made?  Thank you for your response.

  p.s. We built, flew, and sold one of Van's rv 4's back in the late '80's - early '90's ...N52FK  A very fun airplane!

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=249364#249364

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

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 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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-- 

Dave Saylor

AirCrafters LLC

140 Aviation Way

Watsonville, CA 95076

831-722-9141 Shop

831-750-0284 Cell

  [quote][b]

jim(at)CombsFive.Com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:03 pm Post subject: Elevator travel vs. stick grip clearance

I am using the CH grips.  I adjusted the elevator travel prior to installing the grips.  Installing the grips required cutting the vertical portion of the stick off as far down as possible then mounting the CH grips.  I also have a row of toggle switches across the stock Vans panel support.My sticks do contact the switches when pushed forward.  I will say that in 75 hours of flight, I have never even been anywhere close to the panel with the stick.  I am happy with the height of the sticks and the position at neutral.  I do get full up elevator and roll deflection.I think the only way to solve the "Problem" is to make new metal control sticks or rebend the existing ones.  I could do this but so far have resisted trying to fix this.  I know that bumping the switches with the stick could be a problem but as long as it does not jam anything, I think I am ok it the way it is.Now someone else on this forum may raise a valid reason for fixing the problem but I like the current stick positions relative to my seated position.  I tend to fly the airplane with my hand resting on my leg and just using my finger tips at the base of the stick for control. (Hold comments - Please!) but it works well for me.I think that if you had that much forward stick in flight something pretty wild is going on and you will be having other issues to contend with.Just MY Opinion.Jim CombsN312FDo Not Archive   --> RV10-List message posted by: "Walt Fuller" <w_fuller1(at)verizon.net>Hello all,             My name is Walt Fuller and I am a new member of this forum.My father (capt. delta retired, 757-767 ) and I are currentlyin the final year of construction of one of Van's RV 10homebuilts. My father optedto install modified sick grips complete with trim controls, autopilot, combuttons. The specs call for 30 degrees of up elevator and 25 degrees down.We "zeroed" the calibration tool and found that the 30 degree up elevatorwas right on the money. However, the stick grips bottomed out on theinstrument panel when full forward stick was applied, with only about 20degrees of down elevator. With the airflow controls pulled fully out (alternate air, etc.), we got less than 18 degrees of down elevator!We attempted to make some adjustments to the eye bolts between thetorque tubes and gained some down elevator but lost the up elevator.Even with the stick grips off, the sticks still hit the airflow controlsbeforethe 25 degree down was reached. I think our only option is to cut thesticks down to allow the top of the grips to pass under the panel. Hasanyone else run into this scenario and is there an adjustment that can bemade?  Thank you for your response.p.s. We built, flew, and sold one of Van's rv 4's back in the late '80's -early '90's ..N52FK  A very fun airplane!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 49364#249364   [quote][b]

robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:51 pm Post subject: Elevator travel vs. stick grip clearance

Walt Welcome to the forum and good luck with your final year of

building.

This is a common issue and our solution after adding large head infinity

grips and a custom panel was to bend both sticks in a press to add a

touch more curvature. This was surprisingly simple and we were able to

completely clear all obstructions w/o changing the feel of the control

in ones hand. The one downside is our stick turned completely blue.



Robin

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jim(at)CombsFive.Com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:48 pm Post subject: Elevator travel vs. stick grip clearance

Riobin,I like the method you have for changing the bend in the stick.Have to think now about maybe fixing mine.Jim CN312FDo Not Archive   [quote][b]

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:25 pm Post subject: Elevator travel vs. stick grip clearance

We inspect a lot of homebuilts that come in with some sort of issue with control travel.  It's not generally the easiest thing to fix.



Usually, the owners argue that you don't really need full control deflection because if you used it, the result would be a pretty wild ride.

 

But the little blue line on your airspeed indicator (125 knots) is the highest speed that the engineers came up with for being able to do exactly that--full deflection, without structural damage.  They must have had some scenario in mind.  Granted, it won't happen in blue sky cruise, but when things go bad you want to know what your limitations are, and you want as much in your favor as possible.

 

I think a more likely scenario is on take-off or landing, at much lower speeds, when the controls aren't as effective.  I was just reading a report about an engine failure and subsequent long landing.  The pilot used every bit of skill and likely a lot of control deflection, to do what needed to be done.  Things got hairy after he had slowed quite a bit, but still had aerodynamic control, and had to avoid some obstacles.

 

I always advise people to get as much control travel as allowable.

-- 

Dave Saylor

AirCrafters LLC

140 Aviation Way

Watsonville, CA 95076

831-722-9141 Shop

831-750-0284 Cell

  [quote][b]

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:48 pm Post subject: Elevator travel vs. stick grip clearance

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">   I had the same issue, you need to see what to "elevator" travel is vs the stick travel my maximum down elevator travel was met a good inch before the stick touched the CB's my left stick just missed the switch bank. Check your control throws first than add a down elevator stop at the point of max deflection. Don't use the stick as an indicator of throw....measure the surface itself...Rick SkedN246RSLooking for calmer winds.   

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

From:  Dave Saylor 

Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 19:24:41 -0700

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: RV10-List: Elevator travel vs. stick grip clearance

We inspect a lot of homebuilts that come in with some sort of issue with co= ntrol travel.=A0 It's not generally the easiest thing to fix.

Us= ually, the owners argue that you don't really need full control deflect= ion because if you used it, the result would be a pretty wild ride.

But the little blue line on your airspeed indicator (125 knots) is the = highest speed that the engineers came up with for being able to do exactly = that--full deflection, without structural damage.=A0 They must have had som= e scenario in mind.=A0 Granted, it won't happen in blue sky cruise, but=  when things go bad you want to know what your limitations are, and you wan= t as much in your favor as possible.

I think a more likely scenario is on take-off or landing, at much lower=  speeds, when the controls aren't as effective.=A0 I was just reading a=  report about an engine failure and subsequent long landing.=A0 The pilot u= sed every bit of skill and likely a lot of control deflection, to do what n= eeded to be done.=A0 Things got hairy after he had slowed quite a bit, but = still had aerodynamic control, and had to avoid some obstacles.

I always advise people to get as much control travel as allowable.

-= - 

Dave Saylor

AirCrafters LLC

140 Aviation Way

Watsonville, CA=  95076

831-722-9141 Shop

831-750-0284 Cell

  	  Quote: 	
		    _-=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D _-=3D          - The RV10-List Email Forum - _-=3D Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse _-=3D the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, _-=3D Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, _-=3D Photoshare, and much much more: _-=3D _-=3D   --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List _-=3D _-=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D _-=3D               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - _-=3D Same great content also available via the Web Forums! _-=3D _-=3D   --> http://forums.matronics.com _-=3D _-=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D _-=3D             - List Contribution Web Site - _-=3D  Thank you for your generous support! _-=3D                              -Matt Dralle, List Admin. _-=3D   --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 	
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Walt Fuller

Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 9

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Elevator travel vs. stick grip clearance

Thank you All very much for the input...Robin1: We discussed bending the sticks as well, but were concerned with inadvertently "crimping" the insulation which covers the wires running through the stick...which was a real "Bear" to feed through. After consideration, we temporarily installed the left seat and found we too could rest the arm on the leg  and comfortably touch the stick grip. The decision was made to carefully cut the top of the sticks down as far as practical. We used a pipe cutter, then a ban saw with a make-shift spacer to protect the insulation. We now get full forward stick, only slightly touching the pullout controls when they are full out. 

Thank you all again! I really enjoy this forum...My father will most likely be posting on here as well.

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:07 pm Post subject: Elevator travel vs. stick grip clearance

I had been warned by others on the field that my DAR was a stickler for 

control systems. And I made sure that there was no interference with the 

grips in all extreme quadrants before the inspection. During the 

inspection (Yes he checked all the extremes) We discussed this part of 

the inspection, and he echoed the points that Dave relates. His view was 

that if an emergency develops and you loose your engine  and or you 

prop, if you still have  FULL control of your aircraft,  you stand a 

better chance of survival. Unexpected situations can and will develop 

(runaway/stuck trim), when they do, we want the FULL CAPABILITIES OF THE 

AIRCRAFT at our disposal, not just a portion of them.



Deems Davis



Dave Saylor wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   We inspect a lot of homebuilts that come in with some sort of issue 

 with control travel.  It's not generally the easiest thing to fix.



 Usually, the owners argue that you don't really need full control 

 deflection because if you used it, the result would be a pretty wild ride.



 But the little blue line on your airspeed indicator (125 knots) is the 

 highest speed that the engineers came up with for being able to do 

 exactly that--full deflection, without structural damage.  They must 

 have had some scenario in mind.  Granted, it won't happen in blue sky 

 cruise, but when things go bad you want to know what your limitations 

 are, and you want as much in your favor as possible.



 I think a more likely scenario is on take-off or landing, at much 

 lower speeds, when the controls aren't as effective.  I was just 

 reading a report about an engine failure and subsequent long landing.  

 The pilot used every bit of skill and likely a lot of control 

 deflection, to do what needed to be done.  Things got hairy after he 

 had slowed quite a bit, but still had aerodynamic control, and had to 

 avoid some obstacles.



 I always advise people to get as much control travel as allowable.

 -- 

 Dave Saylor

 AirCrafters LLC

 140 Aviation Way

 Watsonville, CA 95076

 831-722-9141 Shop

 831-750-0284 Cell

 *

 *

bkbrown(at)minetfiber.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:17 am Post subject: Elevator travel vs. stick grip clearance

Deems, good on you for making sure things were/are as they should be.  Your

DAR sounds like my original FAA inspector, Mike Robertson who has since left

the Hillsboro, OR FSDO for Spokane.  His inspection of my airplane took

almost three hours, he showed up with a toolkit and used lights, a creeper

and I have a picture of him in my airplane with him upside down and his feet

out the side...



Contrast that with a presentation we had recently at our EAA Chapter by the

new FAA guys from Hillsboro...a recent inspection of my friend's RV took

less than 10 minutes...their position now is that THEY are not responsible

for whether or not the plane is built correctly...you are.  They are here to

inspect whether or not your paperwork is in order...that's it. Some people

like it, I don't.



Bob Brown 



--

n223rv(at)wolflakeairport
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:53 am Post subject: Elevator travel vs. stick grip clearance

FAA's position has always been one of paperwork, not airworthiness, at  

least here in SE Michigan.  He checked for secure engine mounts,  

accessability to the fuel selector ( high priofile accident) and  

placarding.  Rest is up to you...... The 3 I were involved took about  

1 hour each, with 50 minutes of small talk....  That is why you use  

the EAA technical counselors and all your plane friends to review your  

work.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 22, 2009, at 10:13 AM, "Bob and Karen Brown" <bkbrown(at)minetfiber.com 

 > wrote:

[quote] 

 >

 Deems, good on you for making sure things were/are as they should  

 be.  Your

 DAR sounds like my original FAA inspector, Mike Robertson who has  

 since left

 the Hillsboro, OR FSDO for Spokane.  His inspection of my airplane  

 took

 almost three hours, he showed up with a toolkit and used lights, a  

 creeper

 and I have a picture of him in my airplane with him upside down and  

 his feet

 out the side...

 Contrast that with a presentation we had recently at our EAA Chapter  

 by the

 new FAA guys from Hillsboro...a recent inspection of my friend's RV  

 took

 less than 10 minutes...their position now is that THEY are not  

 responsible

 for whether or not the plane is built correctly...you are.  They are  

 here to

 inspect whether or not your paperwork is in order...that's it. Some  

 people

 like it, I don't.

 Bob Brown

 --

speckter(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:54 am Post subject: Elevator travel vs. stick grip clearance

This is even more reason to rely heavily on your Tech Counselor.



Gary Specketer



--

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:00 am Post subject: Elevator travel vs. stick grip clearance

Mel Asberry did my inspection and the paperwork was very minimal. He spent almost four hours going my aircraft. When he wasn't finding anything I started to feel pretty good...I had a loose jamb nut on the left aileron bellcrank, cabin heat wasn't labeled fwd/aft and purge valve wasn't labeled. As far as this stick grip issue I think everyone is missing the point. In the builders manual you are given maximum deflection for all control surfaces. Check the amount of full down and you may find that at that point the grips won't hit the panel. FWIW too much throw can be a problem as well. Full down is more important than some give it credit. Engine loss on take off requires immediate/fast application of full down to arrest the climb and establish best glide. Done properly and altitude loss  will be minimal during the transition to best glide...try it at altitude and work to see how much altitude you can save during the maneuver...done right and it will be almost no loss but it will require aggressive and full application of down elevator



Rick Sked

N246RS

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



--

eagerlee

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 35

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:53 am Post subject: Elevator travel vs. stick grip clearance

we had a similar occurance on RV-10, kit #203: the  co-pilot side rubbed the aluminum piece below the panel and we want to put  some switches or circuit breakers there so opted to tighten the bend on the  curve of the stick.  That steel is some pretty stubborn stuff (probably  chrome moly) so we strapped it tightly into a bender and let it sit overnight -  no joy.  Next we strapped it into the bender and heated it to a light  cherry glow and let it cool for an hour - eureka.  We got our clearance and  all is well.  Apparantly, the QC is a bit lax on these - our two  control sticks differed by about 1.5" clearance measure from the panel with oak  wooden grips installed.

 Paul Hahn

   [quote][b]

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:45 am Post subject: Elevator travel vs. stick grip clearance

When I built my Pitts years ago, we had to have precover inspections.

My paperwork was on a table on one side of the hangar, the wings and

tail feathers on the other, with the fuselage in between.  He opened the

airframe book and started writing, looking at all the pieces.  "I only

see one wing ...... Oh yeah, there's the bottom wings ....." and

continued to write that all the major parts were there and 'looked

good'.  The airworthiness inspection was done with the airplane sitting

in front of the hangar ..... ready for flight.  He walked around it and

said "Looks OK to me." and filled out my temporary airworthiness and

flight restrictions.  All in about 10 minutes, and at no charge.  He

worked at Piper and certified all their airplanes .... and wasn't a Fed.

  When I asked him about the cursory inspection, his reply was "It looks

like a Pitts, and I'm just here to see that you didn't do something

stupid like make the airplane out of the cardboard from the pack of

legal pads!!!"



Lately, the FAA will inspect (FSDO 15, Orlando FL) .... but it may take

months and their ability to show up on time is miserable.  The

inspections, when they dod happen were thorough, though.

Linn

Bob and Karen Brown wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Deems, good on you for making sure things were/are as they should be.  Your

 DAR sounds like my original FAA inspector, Mike Robertson who has since left

 the Hillsboro, OR FSDO for Spokane.  His inspection of my airplane took

 almost three hours, he showed up with a toolkit and used lights, a creeper

 and I have a picture of him in my airplane with him upside down and his feet

 out the side...

 

 Contrast that with a presentation we had recently at our EAA Chapter by the

 new FAA guys from Hillsboro...a recent inspection of my friend's RV took

 less than 10 minutes...their position now is that THEY are not responsible

 for whether or not the plane is built correctly...you are.  They are here to

 inspect whether or not your paperwork is in order...that's it. Some people

 like it, I don't.

 

 Bob Brown 

 

 --

jim(at)CombsFive.Com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:40 pm Post subject: Elevator travel vs. stick grip clearance

I actually did get the controls installed and all the linkages correct with the vans sticks clearing everything. The stick grips have a slight forward cant to them (makes them more comfortable to hold).  Its the forward cant that caused the problem.  I will be checking them again to see what I need to do to get the stick with grips to clear the switches.  I don't  want the grips to be vertical and I like the current stick position for normal flight.  Making them lower to clear the panel is not desirable either.  Have to take another look at what I have and what changes can be made.Thanks, Jim CN312F - Flying 75 hours.Do Not Archive.   [quote][b]

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