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Heavy wing stuff II

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jakereyna(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:36 am Post subject: Heavy wing stuff II

The causes of the heavy left wing is Asymmetrical thrust, P-factor, torque, and it is exacerbated by loading up the left side of the airplane when flying solo. There are some taildraggers that need to flown from the rear seat when solo to compensate for CG and a Zodiac should be flown from the right seat when flying solo to compensate for Asymmetrical thrust, P-factor and torque.



Read the "Aerodynamics of Maneuvering Flight" in the Jeppesen Private Pilot Manual.



Aileron trim is drag, it's a spoiler. To make matters worse, when you engage Aileron trim you also deflect the ailerons, that's it's job, and now you're flying with 3 spoilers deflected, creating drag while in the climb/cruise configuration. Less drag is better.



There is nothing wrong with the configuration of the airplane, all airplanes have this issue, but it's seems worse since the Zodiacs are light. I took this issue into consideration while building and setup the airplane to fly from either seat.



Jake

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:28 am Post subject: Re: Heavy wing stuff II

 	  jakereyna(at)yahoo.com wrote: 	
		  The causes of the heavy left wing is Asymmetrical thrust, P-factor, torque, and it is exacerbated by loading up the left side of the airplane when flying solo. There are some taildraggers that need to flown from the rear seat when solo to compensate for CG and a Zodiac should be flown from the right seat when flying solo to compensate for Asymmetrical thrust, P-factor and torque.



Jake 	




Yet another reason to use a Covair engine, they spin backwards.



One thing I noted in the report was the witness that stated the plane had banked 3 to 5 degrees one way then another. I question if anyone could be that precise when looking at a plane at altitude.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

pdn8r(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:58 am Post subject: Heavy wing stuff II

Gig brings up an interesting point.  I didn't plan on installing aileron trim.  Give me some pluses and minuses on this topic.  I am using a corvair engine.  What do you say Scott and other flying corvairs?  Any problems with aileron trim.  Have it don't have it etc.?



Bill Pagan EAA Tech Counselor #4395

601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES)

--- On Fri, 6/26/09, Gig Giacona  <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Heavy wing stuff II

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday, June 26, 2009, 9:28 AM



 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>

jakereyna(at)yahoo.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The causes of the heavy left wing is Asymmetrical thrust, P-factor, torque, and it is exacerbated by loading up the left side of the airplane when flying solo. There are some taildraggers that need to flown from the rear seat when solo to compensate for CG and a Zodiac should be flown from the right seat when flying solo to compensate for Asymmetrical thrust, P-factor and torque.

 

 Jake


	




Yet another reason to use a Covair engine, they spin backwards.



One thing I noted in the report was the witness that stated the plane had banked 3 to 5 degrees one way then another. I question if anyone could be that precise when looking at a plane at altitude.



--------

W.R.  &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

601XL Under Construction

See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtf="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List" target=_blank rel=              - MATRONICS WEB FORUMp;                   -Matt Draronics.com/contribution" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronic====================





	




           [quote][b]

cookwithgas

Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 159

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:36 am Post subject: Re: Heavy wing stuff II

Bill:



I have aileron trim.  I flew to Baton Rouge with my wife and some luggage in the back and I don't recall touching it in about 9 hours of flying there and back with some sight seeing in between.  A few days later I flew by myself for about 20 minutes and I don't remember using it then either.  



My buttons are on my stick so I may do it out of habit from time to time while I'm cruising without thinking about it.  While I was learning to fly I accidentally held down the left button to full left trim while taking off and I didn't understand what was happening.  My instructor knew right away and told me to get my hand off the trim button.  It was pretty frightening for a low-hour student but if it ever happens again I'll know what it is.  I often forget to reset the elevator trim when taking off and it is also very noticable but easy to quickly correct. 



I don't have an indicator for aileron trim - just peek out the left side to see if it is straight.  I do have an indicator for the elevator trim because I can't see it and I use it every time I land - full flaps = full up trim.  



Tomorrow we are going to fly around DFW to a little airport called Hidden Valley near Denton, TX so I'll try to see what happens if I purposely don't touch it with the two of us flying.  I'll make a note to do the same when I fly next time by myself.  



I would recommend installing it just in case.  It was easy to do and would be a pain if you started flying and decided to install it after the fact. 



Scott in Texas

601XL/Corvair

150 hours and climbing.

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:55 am Post subject: Heavy wing stuff II

I don't yet have any time in a Zenith, so I can't comment on how our aircraft 

may fly with/without aileron trim. However, my experience flying another 

aircraft for many years made me decide to install aileron trim in the 601XL.



That aircraft had elevator and rudder trim, but no aileron trim. When I was 

first flying it, I would set the trim controls per the operating manual. I'd 

get airborne, and retrim.



But I noticed that I was left wing heavy with just me aboard and full fuel. 

Not badly or dangerously so, but enough that I needed to hold a little 

aileron to keep the wings level. 



After a while, I learned to take off on the left wing tank, and fly until I 

started to need a bit of aileron to hold the right wing up. I'd then switch 

to the right tank, and continue switching back and forth throughout the 

flight so that neither wing needed a bit of aileron to stay level.



The sensation in flight was that the wing on whose side I was, or which had 

the most fuel seemed heavy. My conclusion, after around 1,000 hours in that 

aircraft, was that I would have been happier if it had aileron trim.



Thus, there was no question in my mind for the Zenith: it was going to get 

aileron trim. I still plan to manage the fuel by switching between tanks in 

flight, but instead of constantly holding some force against the "heavy" 

wing, I hope to trim out the force with the aileron trim.



Now, if I just had a rudder trim!

-- 

=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager

=============================================

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:22 am Post subject: Re: Heavy wing stuff II

Bad boy... That should be on your check list and a take off postion should be marked on the indicator.



 	  cookwithgas wrote: 	
		   I often forget to reset the elevator trim when taking off and it is also very noticable but easy to quickly correct. 



I don't have an indicator for aileron trim 	




You want one? I have an indicator I'm not using.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

daveaustin2(at)primus.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:35 am Post subject: Heavy wing stuff II

Me again.  If I fly right seat alone I need  almost full trim the other way.  If I fly with passenger, trim is close to  the middle.  Maybe I have a small trim tab?  But it doesn't suggest I  have a problem.

 Dave Austin  601HDS -  912

    [quote][b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Heavy wing stuff II

How do the sizes of the XL ailerons compare to the HD & HDS ailerons?

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:13 am Post subject: Heavy wing stuff II

Bill,

 

 I specifically asked the test pilot that first flew my airplane if he noticed a heavy left wing.  He said he felt no heavy wing, left or right.  He is a tall guy, probably 200 lbs,  the engine is a Corvair.  There were 10 gallons of fuel in each wing.  I don't know which tank he took off using, but he flew a little over an hour and said he did change tanks.

 

 Jay Bannister

 Do not archive

 

   

 

   

 

 --

naumuk(at)windstream.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:44 am Post subject: Heavy wing stuff II

Gig-

    You're comparing apples to cumquats here.

    HD and HDS aileron trim is not offered standard or as an option- it's 

pretty much builder designed and implemented. There is a sketch for the HDS 

from Zenith out there with recommended dimensions, but all the old hands I 

talked too said the tab area was too small.

    A couple of years ago I spent an entire Christmas vacation building a 

proof-of-concept aileron trim installation. I increased the Zenith 

recommended area of the tab 30% based on feedback from the old HDS people, 

and made a provision in the design to allow an even greater increase. 

Decreasing tab effectiveness is simple- just reduce the throw of the 

actuator arm. Also, you have to remember that there are no flaps on an HDS 

and the aileron is full span, so the tab can be located closer to the 

centerline of the AC for greater effectiveness. Of course, you dont want to 

go to far inboard to avoid the effects of propwash.

    What puzzles me is that, considering the well documented track record of 

left wing low when flying solo, Zenith loads the left wing of the XL up with 

all the extra weight- landing and taxi lights, aileron trim installation and 

servo, etc., and all far outboard.

    Enough speculation- I'm headed out to the shop.

                                                                             

        Bill



---

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:09 am Post subject: Heavy wing stuff II

Bill,

It's as much about loads as propeller. You have wings loaded with fuel 

and at some point you'll find the fuel remaining on that side will cause

you to put muscle onto the stick to compensate which is fatiguing on a 

long flight. Fortunately, an electric aileron trim will reduce the effort

or cancel it completely. I recommend you install one as it's easier to 

do before you finish.



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com



pdn8r(at)yahoo.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Gig brings up an interesting point.  I didn't plan on installing 

 aileron trim.  Give me some pluses and minuses on this topic.  I am 

 using a corvair engine.  What do you say Scott and other flying 

 corvairs?  Any problems with aileron trim.  Have it don't have it etc.?



 Bill Pagan

 EAA Tech Counselor #4395

 601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES)

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Heavy wing stuff II

 	  naumuk(at)windstream.net wrote: 	
		  Gig-

    You're comparing apples to cumquats here.

--- 	




Actually I was trying to get info that would stop the comparing of apples to cumquats if that was the case.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

naumuk(at)windstream.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:12 pm Post subject: Heavy wing stuff II

Gig-

    Being an HDS orphan, I'm not the guy.

                                                                             

        Bill

---

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Heavy wing stuff II

I installed an aftermarket aileron trim on my C182P - It carried 40 gallons of fuel in each wing and as is typical of Cessna the tanks did not drain equally.  I would switch tanks to try to even out fuel load but still found the trim useful.  Indeed, the Cessna autopilot wouldn't hold a heading unless I had the airplane trimmed hands off first.  



I installed electric aileron trim in my Zodiac. I also installed wing lockers thinking that weight could be added to the right locker to help balance the  aircraft when flying single pilot in the left seat. I guess I'll find out after I fly it whether such an approach helps.



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:51 am Post subject: Heavy wing stuff II

I have my takeoff trim position marked mentally,  sort of, you know, kinda over there in the upper left quadrant... somewhere.  It's all very precise.

  

 Ed

   [quote][b]

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