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Strasnuts

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:28 am Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

I have read countless archives on the flap "up" position.  I am still trying to get the wingtips flush with the aileron and flap in the "up" position.  My question is: What is the -3 degree from?  The top skin?  Right now when my flaps hit the stops (rear spar contact) the flaps are symmetrical but greater than -3 degrees, more like -4.  For the ones flying, what stops the flaps in the up position? The spar or the flap motor?



Thanks

_________________
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:15 am Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

Mine were over 3 degrees.  I did not measure them when I built the wings.

Just put them up to the stop and lined up the aileron and wingtip.  I had a

heavy left wing during my phase one, that is when I checked.  Left and right

wing were a little different.  So I fixed that, and it helped resolve my

heavy wing.  But, in the end the heavy wing is more of a factor of fuel load

and single fat pilot...........as long as I use the left tank first when I

am solo.....no problem.  I went out the other day with 24 in the right tank

and 30 in the left...solo and guess what....heavy left wing.......  



Rene' Felker

RV-10 N423CF Flying

801-721-6080

--

bcondrey

Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 580

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:39 am Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

Alignment instructions are in section 44 of the plans (page 44-5).

Without the flaps attached you position the flap motor to the fully up

(reflex) position.  Then you position the flaps in the fully up position

defined as when they stop against the rear wing spar doubler.  You then

attach the pushrods connecting the flaps.



So, real answer is that the flap motor limit is aligned to match up with

the flap hitting the rear wing spar doubler.  Wingtips can be a

challenge - it's actually easier to wait until the wings are attached to

the plane, flaps are attached and aligned.  Then align the ailerons to

flaps and clamp in place - at this point and finally make any

adjustments to the wingtips.  Make sure when you do this that you have

the elevators in neutral alignment.  There's a slight (1/4" or so)

movement of the ailerons as you move the elevators from full up through

full down due to the geometry of the aileron to stick attach linkage.



Bob

N442PM (flying)



--

Strasnuts

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:39 am Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

Thanks, I will leave the flaps at the stops and center the ailerons and 

wingtips to that position.

Rene, I would still like to see your RV.  I am out of OGD a lot in the 

citation.  My tail number is N458MT.

If you see me out there stop by.  I always use Kemp Jet on the south side.



Sean

---

_________________
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:54 am Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

The spar stops the flaps, but, you then need to adjust the

motor so it shuts off immediately before the flap hits the

spar so the motor doesn't keep running.

That should give you somewhere around -3 degrees.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

Strasnuts wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I have read countless archives on the flap "up" position.  I am still

 trying to get the wingtips flush with the aileron and flap in the

 "up" position.  My question is: What is the -3 degree from?  The top

 skin?  Right now when my flaps hit the stops (rear spar contact) the

 flaps are symmetrical but greater than -3 degrees, more like -4.  For

 the ones flying, what stops the flaps in the up position? The spar or

 the flap motor?

 

 Thanks

 

 -------- Cust. #40936 A&amp;P, ATP typed CE-525(s), CE-500 RV-10 FUEL

 TANKS N801VR reserved

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 51125#251125

dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 454
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:54 am Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

The -3 degrees is relative to the chord of the wing and is nothing  

you can adjust. Follow the instructions and do what you are doing.  

Align the ailerons with the flaps, with the flaps up to the stops,  

and then align the wingtips with the ailerons. As I recall, the  

important part was getting someone to help push the wingtip securely  

into position and hold it while drilling.



exactly $.02 worth.



David Maib

40559

On Jul 2, 2009, at 10:28 AM, Strasnuts wrote:






I have read countless archives on the flap "up" position.  I am still  

trying to get the wingtips flush with the aileron and flap in the  

"up" position.  My question is: What is the -3 degree from?  The top  

skin?  Right now when my flaps hit the stops (rear spar contact) the  

flaps are symmetrical but greater than -3 degrees, more like -4.  For  

the ones flying, what stops the flaps in the up position? The spar or  

the flap motor?



Thanks



--------

Cust. #40936

A&amp;P, ATP

typed CE-525(s), CE-500

RV-10 FUEL TANKS

N801VR reserved





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 51125#251125

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

Strasnuts

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:13 am Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

Thanks everyone.  A unanimous answer!!

I get to start on my fuselage today! )))))

---

_________________
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:13 am Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

I second the recommendation to fit the wingtips when the wings are on  

the plane.  This way full up on the flaps will be against the rear  

spar doubler and the bottom skin on the flap should be flush with the  

bottom skin on the fuselage.  Then you can "clamp" the aileron flush  

with the flap and fit the wingtip to the aileron.  It is also very  

important, as Bob mentioned, to have the elevator installed and in  

neutral.



This brings up another question.  Has anybody else been installing  

their wingtips with hinges instead of the screws?  I remember it was  

in an RVAtor a couple of years ago.  It really works well and makes  

the wingtip a TON easier to take off and put back on.



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694



On Jul 2, 2009, at 10:29 AM, Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:



[quote] 

 >



 Alignment instructions are in section 44 of the plans (page 44-5).

 Without the flaps attached you position the flap motor to the fully up

 (reflex) position.  Then you position the flaps in the fully up  

 position

 defined as when they stop against the rear wing spar doubler.  You  

 then

 attach the pushrods connecting the flaps.



 So, real answer is that the flap motor limit is aligned to match up  

 with

 the flap hitting the rear wing spar doubler.  Wingtips can be a

 challenge - it's actually easier to wait until the wings are  

 attached to

 the plane, flaps are attached and aligned.  Then align the ailerons to

 flaps and clamp in place - at this point and finally make any

 adjustments to the wingtips.  Make sure when you do this that you have

 the elevators in neutral alignment.  There's a slight (1/4" or so)

 movement of the ailerons as you move the elevators from full up  

 through

 full down due to the geometry of the aileron to stick attach linkage.



 Bob

 N442PM (flying)



 --

robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:32 am Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

BTW when I retract the flaps all the way up 30 minutes into the flight

the plane flies faster.



Robin

Do Not Archive

jeff(at)westcottpress.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:11 am Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

It's observations like this that make this list such a valuable asset.

On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:27 AM, Robin Marks wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 BTW when I retract the flaps all the way up 30 minutes into the flight

 the plane flies faster.



 Robin

 Do Not Archive

jcumins(at)jcis.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:26 am Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

I second that completely!!!!



John G. Cumins

President

 

JC'S Interactive Systems

2499 B1 Martin Rd

Fairfield Ca 94533

707-425-7100

707-425-7576 Fax

 

Your Total Technology Solution Provider



--

bcondrey

Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 580

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:35 am Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

Another tidbit - when I flew with Alex D. last year for transition

training he demonstrated that the takeoff roll will increase by a couple

hundred feet if you've got the flaps in reflex instead of 0 degrees.



Bob



--

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:43 am Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

The aircraft was designed to be flown in cruise with reflexed flaps; why

would anyone cruise with partial flaps? My flaps are selected full up

shortly after takeoff. Any hanging flap just increases lift by increasing

angle of attack and thus increases induced drag; hence lower airspeed for a

given power setting.  



--

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:49 am Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

I am not out there much these days, but.......Friday and Saturday morning I

will be out there giving flights to people I have promised.....any chance

you will be around then?



I am in hanger S-525, a couple of rows south of the tower...



Rene' Felker

RV-10 N423CF Flying

801-721-6080



--

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:56 am Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

You shouldn't stall the flap motor.  It should get to the end of its travel and keep running (some shut off with a position switch, but the concept is the same).  The bottom of the flaps should be even with the belly when they are all the way up.

 

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:28 AM, Strasnuts <sean(at)braunandco.com (sean(at)braunandco.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "Strasnuts" <sean(at)braunandco.com (sean(at)braunandco.com)>

   

 I have read countless archives on the flap "up" position.  I am still trying to get the wingtips flush with the aileron and flap in the "up" position.  My question is: What is the -3 degree from?  The top skin?  Right now when my flaps hit the stops (rear spar contact) the flaps are symmetrical but greater than -3 degrees, more like -4.  For the ones flying, what stops the flaps in the up position? The spar or the flap motor?

   	


-- 

Dave Saylor

AirCrafters LLC

140 Aviation Way

Watsonville, CA 95076

831-722-9141 Shop

831-750-0284 Cell

  [quote][b]

drfred(at)suddenlinkmail.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:14 am Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

Alex had me use about 5 deg down for takeoff.   Works well.  You still 

have to remember to put them back up.  



Dr Fred.



Off to Denver in am. 



Condrey, Bob (US SSA) wrote:

[quote] 



 Another tidbit - when I flew with Alex D. last year for transition

 training he demonstrated that the takeoff roll will increase by a couple

 hundred feet if you've got the flaps in reflex instead of 0 degrees.



 Bob



 --

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:14 am Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

It can help when at high altitudes to keep your

climb rate better, if you maintain zero degrees.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD



David McNeill wrote:

[quote] 

 

 The aircraft was designed to be flown in cruise with reflexed flaps; why

 would anyone cruise with partial flaps? My flaps are selected full up

 shortly after takeoff. Any hanging flap just increases lift by increasing

 angle of attack and thus increases induced drag; hence lower airspeed for a

 given power setting.  

 

 --

jcumins(at)jcis.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:06 am Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

Ok here comes my 2 cents worth.  Being a retired Flight engineer, we have to

educate you guys about the -3 degree reflex and zero degrees.  As it has

been said it is based upon the cord line of the wing.



If you drew a cord line it would be straight from leading edge to the

trailing edge of the flaps with the flaps in the 0 degree position.  With

the flaps in the -3 degree reflex position that cord line would bend up 3

degrees starting at the leading edge of the flap. 



So the zero degree position gives the wing its original airfoil shape as

designed, and the lift verses drag index is a set reference.  Thus higher

lift and same lift area and the drag index is the set amount as designed.

The 3 degree position actually just reduces the drag index by bringing the

aft trailing edge of the wind up and actuallr decreases the amount of lift

at slower speeds.  Thus the longer take off roll in the -3 degree position.

But faster cruise speed.   



The index of lift vers drag and a very different animal in each airfoil.

All large air frames use slotted follower flaps to extend the wing area

making the amount of lift greatly increased vers the drag index of the take

off flaps position.  This can be very confusing to a lot of people and it is

about a week class in aero dytnamics to really understand how the wing area-

lift vers drag and drag index can change greatly with very small amount of

flap movement.



I will be glad to chat with any one off line and help educate any one if

they want a more in detail lesson on this matter.



Have a great and safe flying weekend and 4th of July,  



And GOD bless each and every one of you and this great country.

John Cumins

40864 Priming elevators waiting for it to cool off. 

--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:29 am Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

I'm not sure if you're saying that I'm wrong, or not. 



When I said it helps you keep a good climb rate, I was

intending to mean that you get a tiny bit more lift

out of the zero degree setting vs. the -3 degree setting.

So if you're up high over 10,000' and having very

slow climb rates, you can get a small bump in climb

rate by going back to zero.  Now, you could also

get a better climb rate at lower altitudes, but, the -10

generally climbs so well that it may be just as

practical to "set it and forget it" once you are climbing

out.



Is that correct from your perspective as a Flight Engineer,

or not?



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD



John Cumins wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Ok here comes my 2 cents worth.  Being a retired Flight engineer, we have to

 educate you guys about the -3 degree reflex and zero degrees.  As it has

 been said it is based upon the cord line of the wing.

 

 If you drew a cord line it would be straight from leading edge to the

 trailing edge of the flaps with the flaps in the 0 degree position.  With

 the flaps in the -3 degree reflex position that cord line would bend up 3

 degrees starting at the leading edge of the flap. 

 

 So the zero degree position gives the wing its original airfoil shape as

 designed, and the lift verses drag index is a set reference.  Thus higher

 lift and same lift area and the drag index is the set amount as designed.

 The 3 degree position actually just reduces the drag index by bringing the

 aft trailing edge of the wind up and actuallr decreases the amount of lift

 at slower speeds.  Thus the longer take off roll in the -3 degree position.

 But faster cruise speed.   

 

 The index of lift vers drag and a very different animal in each airfoil.

 All large air frames use slotted follower flaps to extend the wing area

 making the amount of lift greatly increased vers the drag index of the take

 off flaps position.  This can be very confusing to a lot of people and it is

 about a week class in aero dytnamics to really understand how the wing area-

 lift vers drag and drag index can change greatly with very small amount of

 flap movement.

 

 I will be glad to chat with any one off line and help educate any one if

 they want a more in detail lesson on this matter.

 

 Have a great and safe flying weekend and 4th of July,  

 

 And GOD bless each and every one of you and this great country.

 

 

 John Cumins

 40864 Priming elevators waiting for it to cool off. 

 

 

 --

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:53 am Post subject: -3 degrees flaps

Why not keep it on the list so the casual reader might learn something 

too???  If not, add me to your 'flap' list!!

Linn



John Cumins wrote:

SNIP

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 I will be glad to chat with any one off line and help educate any one if

 they want a more in detail lesson on this matter.

 

 Have a great and safe flying weekend and 4th of July,  

 

 And GOD bless each and every one of you and this great country.

 

 

 John Cumins

 40864 Priming elevators waiting for it to cool off.

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