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Max X-wind

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Valkyre1(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:00 am Post subject: Max X-wind

Hey guys,

  

 Silly question, but does anyone know the official  maximum crosswind/tailwind component for a CJ6? - Val

gus.fraser(at)gs.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:32 am Post subject: Max X-wind

Not sure but for a Yak 52 it is  

CROSSWIND

Maximum crosswind component  6m/sec (12kt)

Gus

  	  Quote: 	
		           From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of    Valkyre1

Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 12:59 PM

To:    yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Max    X-wind

   

   Hey guys,

    

   Silly question, but does anyone know the official    maximum crosswind/tailwind component for a CJ6? -  Val

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:44 pm Post subject: Max X-wind

Valkyre1 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hey guys,

  

 Silly question, but does anyone know the official maximum 

 crosswind/tailwind component for a CJ6? - Val


	


I have landed in a direct 17 kt crosswind before. I don't know if there 

is an official number tho'.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:49 pm Post subject: Max X-wind

A. Dennis Savarese wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Although the book says 12 knots on the 52, I have made crosswind 

 landings with a direct, 90 degree crosswind blowing steadily at 

 approximately 16-17 knots and did not run out of rudder.


	


Remember that DEMONSTRATED crosswind capability does not mean that the 

airplane can't land in a greater crosswind, only that it has only been 

tested to the demonstrated value.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

cpayne(at)joimail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:08 pm Post subject: Max X-wind

Val wrote:

 >

 >Hey guys,

 	  Quote: 	

silly question, but does anyone know the official maximum crosswind/tailwind component

for a CJ6? - Val

 Not a silly question. The answer is "depends". Right crosswind is tougher than the left when carrying power on to the runway. I have done 25+ Knots direct x-wind component out of a 35 Kt total but it wasn't pretty. Use some crab with that full rudder and *all* of the runway width available. I wouldn't recommend skinny runways in gusty x-winds for the CJ...or Piper, or Beech. or cessna, etc. Having sailboat training helped me :>)

 Craig Payne

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: Max X-wind

That sounds pretty "official" to me! -)

Dennis



---

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject: Max X-wind

I do not necessarily agree with you.  The term "demonstrated crosswind" does 

apply to US certified aircraft.  But are you 100% confident the same testing 

terminology is used in Russia or for that matter, China?

Dennis



---

BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:24 pm Post subject: Max X-wind

Val wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		  >Hey guys, 

> 

>silly question, but does anyone know the official maximum crosswind/tailwind component 

>for a CJ6? - Val 

Craig Payne replied 

 	  Quote: 	
		  Not a silly question. The answer is "depends".  

Right crosswind is tougher than the left when carrying  

power on to the runway. I have done 25+ Knots direct  

x-wind component out of a 35 Kt total but it wasn't  

pretty. Use some crab with that full rudder and *all*  

of the runway width available. I wouldn't recommend  

skinny runways in gusty x-winds for the CJ...or Piper,  

or Beech. or cessna, etc. Having sailboat training helped me :>)   

Which brings up an interesting question.  I fly a YAK-50 and the listed crosswind component on that thing is in the single digit range.  The gear legs on a 50 are anything but "robust".   Landing on narrow runways in ANY kind of wind condition is an exercise in this aircraft, which is why I have sometime landed on taxiways, intersections, and centermats.  I've always wondered about the legality of that... not that it matters... I'll always take a violation over an accident... any day!  Never-the-less, what do the legal eagles have to say in that regard?  I've asked to do it at a tower controlled airport and they denied it.  The wind was intense.. gusting to over 30 some knots... so I lined up on the runway intersection and landed into the wind on it. Tower guy was not very happy about that either.  No violation, but the way he acted he was being nice by not turning me in.  I just kept my mouth shut and decided not to belabor the point.  Any input here?    

Mark Bitterlich 

N50YK

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:35 pm Post subject: Max X-wind

A. Dennis Savarese wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com>

 

 I do not necessarily agree with you.  The term "demonstrated crosswind" 

 does apply to US certified aircraft.  But are you 100% confident the 

 same testing terminology is used in Russia or for that matter, China?


	


I cannot comment because I don't know how the Russians determined the 

number. I am not aware of any published number for the CJ6A so I can 

only comment on *my* experience. I do find it interesting that Dave 

King's experience is similar to mine so I would say that we have a 

couple of good data points here.



The only other point I was making is that an airplane *may* be capable 

of landing safely in a crosswind component greater than the published 

"demonstrated crosswind component". I didn't say that I would want to go 

find out some dark and stormy night on a narrow, slick, runway.



But I do know that the CJ6A is fully controllable in a direct 17 kt 

crosswind (both sides -- I tried it). I strongly recommend being up on 

your crosswind landing technique and that your brakes be in good condition.

-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:39 pm Post subject: Max X-wind

Bitterlich GS11 Mark G wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Never-the-less, what do the legal eagles have to say in that regard?  

 I've asked to do it at a tower controlled airport and they denied it.  

 The wind was intense.. gusting to over 30 some knots... so I lined up on 

 the runway intersection and landed into the wind on it. Tower guy was 

 not very happy about that either.  No violation, but the way he acted he 

 was being nice by not turning me in.  I just kept my mouth shut and 

 decided not to belabor the point.  Any input here? 


	


You got away with it. I wouldn't push my luck too often tho'.



And I have done the same thing but only at an uncontrolled field. 60 mph 

direct crosswind (Van Horn, TX, in 1984 on the flight home after I 

bought my Commanche) so I landed on the crossing taxiway. I think my 

ground roll was about 100'.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:42 am Post subject: Max X-wind

And so is the 52 completely controllable in direct crosswinds of greater 

than 12 knots.  I have "demonstrated" that to myself on several occasions.

Dennis



---

pilling.k(at)btconnect.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:31 am Post subject: Max X-wind

You know it was too much  x-wind for your CJ when both gear legs retract in the same direction on roll  out.!...or in a 50/52 left-right instead of  forward-backward..........kp

 [quote]   ---

Valkyre1(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:37 am Post subject: Max X-wind

Yup, you're right there. I had a new captain insist  that I land our 767 in Seattle when the winds were down the runway at 90 gusting  to 105 kts. ( Yes you heard that right.)  He was determined to have me do  it because he was new to the machine and I had been flying it as co-pilot for  six years. That was the only good decision he made that night. We also had  moderate to severe turbulence.

  

 When I objected, his rational was the we had no  maximum headwind limit in the books for the 767 and Seattle was still shooting  approaches and hadn't closed the airport down. My objection was that it just  didn't seem like the smart thing to do but.... "oh well" he had me on the  semantics.

  

 Needless to say, we made it, but we were the last  airplane to land before they shut Seattle down at the request of the next  airliner who made a missed approach and said "You shut this (at)!#!! airport DOWN!  There IS no moderate turbulence out here...just severe! We can't control the  aircraft!"

  

 Once we got on the taxiway I told the captain  that if he EVER tried to do that to us again I would slap him silly. He was  white as a sheet and had pretty much just held on and left me on my own during  the approach. A missed approach attempt would have put us in more jeopardy  because I was already using full control deflection just to keep us upright and  on the ILS. One more configuration change would have been, in my opinion, the  last straw.

  

 The captain looked at me and just said, "Next time  I'd appreciate it if you DID slap some sense into me."

  

 Point being, as you said, even if the book numbers  look OK, it's legal, and everybody else is apparently doing  it but you have a bad feeling about something....don't do it. Just my  philosophy.

  

 - Val

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:28 am Post subject: Max X-wind

Valkyre1 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   "HAH!"  Thanks Gus. It's probably very similar in a CJ and a component

 of landing speeds and rudder/ vert. stabilizer surface. Just guessing. - Val


	


Contributing factors are:



1. Speed at touchdown determines how much bank angle you will need for a

given cross-wind. Fast touch-down speeds require less bank angle to

control the same amount of lateral drift.



Since the flaps on the CJ do not make an appreciable difference in stall

speed you aren't going to gain much by doing a no-flap landing. The

extra drag of the split flaps slowing the airplane is probably of more

help to you than the 2-kt reduction in stall speed.



2. Bank angle available is dependent on how much wingtip clearance you

have at touchdown (or how much you are willing to use).



3. Acceptable gear side loads will also determine the available bank

angle. My gut feel is that the gear on the CJ6A can handle greater

side-loads than can the gear of the Yak-52 but I am guessing here.



4. How much rudder authority do you have at touchdown speed? It needs to

be sufficient to align the aircraft longitudinal axis with the axis of

the runway. If you are short on rudder authority you can use the "crab

it in then kick is straight" method but that may involve higher gear

side loads at the moment of touchdown as the aircraft will have started

to drift laterally.



Does this help?



Brian Lloyd

brian HYPHEN yak AT lloyd DOT com

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:31 am Post subject: Max X-wind

You might not want to use flap in a real cross wind.  You are adding additional surface area for the wind to act on and thus cause more drift.  Also as one gets into ground effect with flap out the airplane will be lighter on the gear and the airplane will drift easier after touch down.  A "firm" landing is also preferred, a "greaser" will only cause you to expose the airplane to the wind longer and thus increasing drift as you slow down.

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

 

--

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:54 pm Post subject: Max X-wind

cjpilot710(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   You might not want to use flap in a real cross wind.  You are adding

 additional surface area for the wind to act on and thus cause more

 drift.  Also as one gets into ground effect with flap out the airplane

 will be lighter on the gear and the airplane will drift easier after

 touch down.  


	


I figured that comment would be controversial because it goes against

normally taught procedure. Normally I would agree with you that one

should reduce the amount of flaps for a crosswind landing and indeed

that is what I teach in other aircraft. Simple, slotted, and fowler

flaps substantially reduce stall speed and require greater bank angle at

touchdown.



Since the flaps in the CJ6A do not decrease the stall speed by any

appreciable amount you aren't going to have any appreciable difference

in bank angle at touchdown. The increased drag gives me better speed

control while still in the air and slows the airplane more quickly when

on the ground thus getting the weight on the wheels.



I treat the CJ6A as a special case in this respect.



 	  Quote: 	
		   A "firm" landing is also preferred, a "greaser" will only

 cause you to expose the airplane to the wind longer and thus increasing

 drift as you slow down.


	


Agreed. The real key is to keep flying the airplane until it is stopped

AND tied down. Once I actually had an airplane I was taxiing (about 15

kts ground speed) lift off in a strong gust. Since I was already

"flying" the airplane it turned out to be a non event.



Brian Lloyd

brian HYPHEN yak AT lloyd DOT com

dabear(at)damned.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:17 pm Post subject: Max X-wind

I have had the same experience as Dennis.  If I recall correctly I

landed with 16-18kts crosswind (90deg off).  I still had rudder, but not

much.



DaBear



A. Dennis Savarese wrote:



[quote] Although the book says 12 knots on the 52, I have made crosswind

 landings with a direct, 90 degree crosswind blowing steadily at

 approximately 16-17 knots and did not run out of rudder.

 Dennis

  



     ---

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