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Typical Cruise

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith650-List

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pequeajim

Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:46 pm Post subject: Typical Cruise

What is the typical cruise for a 650, say at 8-9000 feet with a Jabiru 3300?



Does anyone know this yet?



Also, do the wing lockers take away some of the strength in the wings?[/list]

pequeajim

Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: Typical Cruise

Is there anyone flying a 650 with a 3300 in it?

pequeajim

Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: Typical Cruise

Is there anyone on this list?

chuck960

Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 44
Location: PA

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: Typical Cruise

I'll let you know when I get mine in the air but why would it be any different than a 601?

lwinger

Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 229
Location: Tustin, CA

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:08 pm Post subject: Typical Cruise

Yes, but I'm finding that most posts don't get any response.  

  

 Larry Winger

 Tustin, CA

 650/Corvair

 Installing canopy

 On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 8:52 PM, pequeajim <pequeajim(at)gmail.com (pequeajim(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Zenith650-List message posted by: "pequeajim" <pequeajim(at)gmail.com (pequeajim(at)gmail.com)>

 

Is there anyone on this list?





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252405#252405

 s List Un/Subscription,

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith650-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith650-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 =====



[b]

_________________
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair
Installing fuel system
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger

pequeajim

Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:20 am Post subject: Re: Typical Cruise

 	  lwinger wrote: 	
		  Yes, but I'm finding that most posts don't get any response.ï¿½ 

 

[b] 	




Is it because there are not that many 650 builders on here, not interested, just not that many 650 builders as a whole?

pequeajim

Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:22 am Post subject: Re: Typical Cruise

 	  chuck960 wrote: 	
		  I'll let you know when I get mine in the air but why would it be any different than a 601? 	




I wouldn't know, is there any difference from a 601 as far as cruise with a 3300?

brianrobertwood(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:04 am Post subject: Typical Cruise

Well, I am here lurking, but all I know is what I read. I bought plans,  

but am "on hold", first for lack of funds, and second, I am waiting for  

more information concerning the break-ups. The one here in Brazil shook me  

up a little, the builder was very active on a list here in Portuguese, and  

he was very careful, very professional. It just doesn't make sense. I feel  

like some important information is missing. The Brazilian FAA does not  

investigate experimental accidents, so more potential information is lost.



I like the design, I trust the Heintz family, I like the plane, I have  

seen the results of the flutter tests in Germany. Everything looks good.  

So why the break-ups?



Brian



Em Fri, 10 Jul 2009 00:52:52 -0300, pequeajim <pequeajim(at)gmail.com>  

escreveu:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Is there anyone on this list?





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 52405#252405






	


-- 

Brian R. Wood

JH Manutencao

Anapolis. Goias, Brazil

pequeajim

Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:28 am Post subject: Re: Typical Cruise

So is the cruise basically the same as the 601XL?  I am looking for a LS compliant aircraft that I can replace my Lightning with and build over time at home.  I would like it to have the capabilities to be sporty, and cruise at 150+ at altitude, yet more roomy than say, a Sonex.



My Lightning is a great aircraft, but I can't afford to keep it right now with my "lack of" work going on.  I don't expect the 650 to have to performance of the Lightning, but somewhat close would be good.  This is what I am trying to establish.



I also want to try building a metal aircraft this time around.



Also, are there any other Zodiac forums out there?  This one seems to be a bit anemic...



Jim!

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:32 am Post subject: Re: Typical Cruise

I lurk here too.  Airframe mostly completed for my XL with a lot of 650 stuff on it.



Zenith doesn't advertise their low wing aircraft line in the print magazines anymore.  So I wonder if they are moving away from that market?  If so, then there may never be very many 650 builders.  How many of the four seat 640's were built after they stopped advertising them...?



Would be a good question to ask them at Oshkosh...



- Pat

pequeajim

Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:45 am Post subject: Re: Typical Cruise

 	  PatrickW wrote: 	
		  How many of the four seat 640's were built after they stopped advertising them...?



Would be a good question to ask them at Oshkosh...



- Pat 	




I will, thanks...

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:58 am Post subject: Typical Cruise

On Friday 10 July 2009 07:28, pequeajim wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 So is the cruise basically the same as the 601XL?  I am looking for a LS

 compliant aircraft that I can replace my Lightning with and build over time

 at home.  I would like it to have the capabilities to be sporty, and cruise

 at 150+ at altitude, yet more roomy than say, a Sonex.


	


It's designed as an LSA. Therefore, I would expect the maximum speed (as 

designed) to be that of an LSA.



You might be able to tweak more speed, but given the open questions about the 

XL, and the fact they share a lot of components, how wise that may be is open 

to question.

==============================================

   You can check on my aircraft construction     

progress at: http://www.mykitlog.com/santaigo

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

     Retired Aerospace Technical Manager

=================================================

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:10 am Post subject: Typical Cruise

On Friday 10 July 2009 07:32, PatrickW wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I lurk here too.  Airframe mostly completed for my XL with a lot of 650

 stuff on it.



 Zenith doesn't advertise their low wing aircraft line in the print

 magazines anymore.  So I wonder if they are moving away from that market? 


	


There's a recession going on. Some of the magazines have reduced the number of 

pages because advertisers as a whole have had to cut back on advertising. I 

believe I remember the publisher saying GA News had reduced the page count by 

16. He said lack of advertising was the sole reason. Look at the thickness of 

Trade-a-Plane a couple of years ago vs now, as an example.



I suspect Zenith was already feeling the effects of the recession. With all 

the negative publicity from the XL, I'd bet their sales are down, which 

probably means their advertising budget is down. Hopefully, this is not an 

endless spiral downward.



I do believe I have seen them advertising in Kit Planes every month, though. 

That may be a mix of ads for the 750 and the 650.

-- 

=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager

=============================================

mcjon77

Joined: 17 May 2008
Posts: 55
Location: Chicago

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:10 am Post subject: Re: Typical Cruise

 	  pequeajim wrote: 	
		  So is the cruise basically the same as the 601XL?  I am looking for a LS compliant aircraft that I can replace my Lightning with and build over time at home.  I would like it to have the capabilities to be sporty, and cruise at 150+ at altitude, yet more roomy than say, a Sonex.

	




150mph+ in a Zodiac?  Nope.   The 650 is essentially a 601XL with a few redesigns.  The canopy is larger, allowing for a taller pilot.  Also, the landing gear was strengthened, an the rudder was slicked back more.  



As far as cruise speeds with the 3300, most of the numbers I have heard, even at altitude are in the low (to mid) 130's.  This makes sense, because the 100hp 601XLs (continental and corvair) are in the mid to high 120's.  This is at  about 8k msl.  Also, keep in mind that the 650 has the same wing as the 601XL, so IF there is a problem with the 601XL wing, then it most likely exists in the 650 as well.  This is what one of the above posters was referring to when he mentioned waiting for more information about the in-flight breakups.



For the kind of speed you are talking about.  I know of only 3 aircraft that can do that with a Jabiru 3300, and still qualify as LSAs.  The Lighning, the sonex, and the sonerai.  Europa is coming out with an LSA wing for their birds, so they might be an option later.

_________________
Jon McDonald
Building Sonex #1287
Next up CH 701 Very Happy

Doug.Norman(at)sportaviat
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:07 am Post subject: Typical Cruise

I'm not a 650 owner, but I am a 601 owner. Here's my understanding and my

experiences on the characteristics you're looking at.



The 650 solves a couple of user gripes - headroom, canopy closure, and

stodgy look of the rudder. The angle of incidence of the wing is back to

where it was a couple of years ago. It was reduced a few years ago based on

reported better performance from builders in Spain. Now it's raised so as to

provide a better view in cruise.



There are a few other small changes to the wing such as gussets on the

inboard side of the ailerons (I had these added when I was up at AMD for my

annual - it took a total of 45 min to manufacture and install the pieces).



The main gear was changed a couple of years ago. The airplane now sits

higher on the gear, and offers less of an angle of attack during the take

off run. The airplane must be rotated, it won't fly off on its own.



As far as speeds go, I see 105-110 knots TAS at 2450 rpm burning 5.7-6.3 gph

with the Continental O-200a. I have a bit more than 340 hours on the

airplane, and I keep records of every flight. This is what it gets. On a

cool day, one can see higher IAS near sea level (the best I've experienced

is 114 IAS during a Florida winter day at 1500 MSL).



With respect to LSAs, your speed is limited by the LSA definition. No faster

than 120 kts at max continuous power. One of the cub look-alikes now offers

a trick engine which can put out 180hp for a short time and this makes it a

phenomenal short field performer and initial climb.



I've had no trouble with my airplane; none at all. And I use it for both

pleasure and business travel. The reduced MTOW is troublesome; but I'm

pretty sure that will be returned to the 1320 soon. Its legs are marginal

for real cross country with the Continental in my view. I travel often at

the airplane's margins (300-400 nm) and the winds decide whether I can make

the trip without a stop while maintaining sufficient reserves.



The airplane is great to fly. Frankly, I purchased it for its sporty flight

characteristics and I have a little fear that the sportiness may be

engineered out of it to make it more acceptable to the broader masses. I was

b o r e d by the Cessna/piper 4 bangers. It felt like taking the family

truckster (nat'l lampoon / chevy chase reference) when you were dreaming of

the little sport car. It does require attention to fly when one is first

learning the airplane. In fact (true story), there were two CFIs I couldn't

clear to fly the airplane (I'm a CFI and I initially used the plane for

flight instruction). Both of these CFIs couldn't land the Zodiac. Both were

big-iron flyers - high wing loading. This tracks with the latest info from

the insurance industry.



Whatever you choose to build and/or fly, have fun with it!



Doug Norman

AMD Zodiac N601DN

--

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