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paul perry

Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 36

Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:07 am Post subject: Kreem Problem Again

I have a KFIV speedster (purchased from orig builder about a yr ago) completed in 2001, and have discovered the "kreem" is coming off in at least the right side tank. I also have the mil-h-6000 fuel lines so I am going to replace those even though on initial inspection they appear to be ok. I'm not sure about the left tank, it looks ok from what I can see, but I'm going to try to come up with a "mini-webcam" to visually inspect the inside of the tank. I have read as many of the posts on these subjects as I could find, but most were going back several years, so I would like to ask the following:

1) Which is the better solvent for the Kreem, MEK or acetone?

2) Approx how long(solvent in contact with kreem)  does it take to dissolve (talking minutes, hours or days?)                                            3) Has anyone successfully re-sloshed a tank after it had been in use for several years?

Thanks to everyone who posts on this forum, as it has been very helpful!



                              Paul Perry

                              Bloomfield, MO    pperryrph(at)sbcglobal.net

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:57 am Post subject: Re: Kreem Problem Again

Hi Paul,



MEK not acetone. You will not dissolve the Kreem. It is meant to stand up to most all fluids or it wouldn't be any good. Sounds like some one didn't do a good job of pre-cleaning or sloshing the tank the first time. It should not peal or flake.

Get as much of the loose Kreem out as possible. Use the MEK to clean the tank, but it is not necessary to leave it in long periods and depending on the tank material might be harmful to do so. You can re-slosh your tank with out any problems. Just do a good job of sloshing and rotating the tank. Do it at least three times in one day. Rotate slowly and completely.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:42 am Post subject: Kreem Problem Again

I agree with Roger, but will just add a couple things.  First, Acetone will 

work, but not near as well as MEK.  Kreem is MEK based, but more expensive 

than acetone and not as easy to find.  If you can find MEK it will make the 

job easier, but keep it away from your paint job.

Also, when you re-slosh (recommended), I would advise diluting the Kreem 

50/50 with MEK.  Kreem as it comes from the can is quite thick and difficult 

to cover the whole inside of the tank without having thick spots, which you 

don't want.  By diluting it, it covers the whole inside of the tank easily 

and makes it much easier to pour out the what isn't needed.

Good luck,

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 425+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



---

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:44 am Post subject: Kreem Problem Again

Like Deke, I agree with most, but I tend to disagree on the MEK vs Acetone 

issue.  After reading this thread, I went to the hangar and poured a little 

Kreem in a cup and added some Acetone.  It thinned it just like MEK would. 

I also ran a small test to see if it would remove the Kreem from some small 

parts I had.  It did.  So as far as the MEK and Acetone question, the choice 

is yours - in my opinion.   If you want to check to make sure, fish a couple 

of flakes of the Kreem from the tank and soak it in a small amount of 

acetone to see what happens.



I resloshed one tank in the mid life of my Model IV and used Acetone to 

clean out the old Kreem.  The primary reason I used acetone was cost.  I 

could tell the Kreem rinsed out by  the color of the several rinses getting 

less white, and the absense of white color on the surface of the tank 

interior.  Put plugs in all tank outlets and keep in mind that while 

removing the Kreem (at least with acetone) a slight pressure will be built 

up and you will want to vent the tank a couple of times with each rinse. 

Cover top and bottom of the tank with plastic attached carefully with 

masking tape to protect the surface as Deke mentioned.



It will take at least two of you to do the rinse and sloshing and preferably 

big guys.  Those wings are heavy when holding them and moving them around to 

get the Kreem out and resloshing. It would help to have some sort of stand 

to put the wing on to rest your arms from time to time.



I think I used about three gallons of Acetone in three separate rinses.



One last thought, I made a gimbal device that attached to the outboard end 

of the wing that was attached to castored stand.  This stand supported the 

wing for easy removal and then allowed for one end of the wing to be 

supported as it was sloshed.  I still have the gimbal and would be happy to 

send it to you if you think it would help - the stand became a work bench.



Lowell Fitt

Cameron Park, CA

Model IV-1200 R-912 UL

Covering



---

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:15 am Post subject: Kreem Problem Again

On Sun, July 12, 2009 6:07 am, pperrynas wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

clip clip
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   1) Which is the better solvent for the Kreem, MEK or acetone?


	


MEK - methyl ethyl ketone is probably a little better as regards to saturation and

hence is a little faster acting than acetone and should require fewer slosh, rinse

drain cycles than acetone. Prolonged MEK exposure to some composites can cause

swelling and softening. MEK is probably at least twice the unit cost of acetone but

should require about a third less. Now here is the real kicker - MEK is very toxic and

exposure effects are cumulative. One should not breathe any vapors and it passes right

through your bare skin into your bloodstream. You can die from a single exposure

event. You must be very careful using it and have a safety plan. MEK is very flammable

too and the flames are totally invisible. Acetone is less flammable but still it

presents a risk.



 	  Quote: 	
		   2) Approx how long(solvent in contact with kreem)  does it take to dissolve (talking

 minutes, hours or days?)


	


Both MEK and acetone start to soften and dissolve the kreem surface immediately. The

one time I watched the process was on aluminum tanks with rivet construction. The

tanks were going to be modified for more capacity. The tank size started at 11 gallons

and was expanded to 17 gallons. The tanks were removed from the wing, openings sealed

and first flushed with under a quart of MEK for 5 to 10 minutes of rotation then left

to sit about 20 minutes or so then rotated again for 5 minutes after opening to the

fill cap to release the pressure. That process exposed the cap seal to MEK and it

began to leak. Then the tank was drained and I was surprised that what was drained out

was about the thickness of latex wall paint. The process would have continued but by

now the tank filler cap gasket was totally destroyed and a temporary fix had to be

done to continue. The solution was a leather gasket made from an old work shoe. The

second rinse was repeated with close to a quart and a half of MEK and the drainage was

not thick and the inside of the aluminum tank looked pretty clean with sort of a

frosting everywhere and a tiny bit of kreem remaining at the edge of some of the

rivets but it might have been liquid there too. The third rinse was with about a pint

of MEK and that was done for three sessions of rotating at least 5 minutes and a rest

of 1 to 20 minutes. There was nearly nothing discoloring the drained MEK and the

inside of the tanks appeared shiny clean.



After the tanks were opened, welded and rivets added they were resloshed and the

result appears to be permanent.



I don't know if you could follow this same procedure with fiberglass tanks or not.

Might have to not soak them so long. At the time I saw this done, I was not aware of

the level of toxicity of MEK although I used some kind of plastic gloves and a

respirator when I helped. I didn't get any on my skin but I sure got to know the smell

of it. Painters using MEK use a forced fresh air supply piped into their clothes so

they get zero exposure to it.



I was lead to believe that even though the MEK was more expensive, you needed less and

the dissolving time was faster. I don't know from experience though.



 	  Quote: 	
		                                              2) Has anyone

 successfully re-sloshed a tank after it had been in use for several years?


	


I have no experience with fiberglass tanks at all. It's sure been reported to occur

plenty of times over the years on this mail list though.

-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA



"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that

of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others,

who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and

skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of

association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his

industry and the fruits acquired by it."

-- Thomas Jefferson



"We maintain our strength in order to deter and defend against aggression -- to

preserve freedom and peace. Since the dawn of the atomic age, we've sought to

reduce the risk of war by maintaining a strong deterrent and by seeking genuine

arms control. 'Deterrence' means simply this: making sure any adversary who

thinks about attacking the United States, or our allies, or our vital

interests, concludes that the risks to him outweigh any potential gains. Once

he understands that, he won't attack. We maintain the peace through our

strength; weakness only invites aggression."

-- Ronald Reagan



Americans are not a perfect people, but we are called to a perfect mission.

--Andrew Jackson



It's passionately interesting for me that the things that I learned in a

small town, in a very modest home, are just the things that I believe

have won the election.

-- Margaret Thatcher



The planter, the farmer, the mechanic, and the laborer... form the

great body of the people of the United States, they are the bone and

sinew of the country men who love liberty and desire nothing but

equal rights and equal laws.

-- Andrew Jackson



"The Founding Fathers established a system which meant a radical

break from that which preceded it. A written constitution would

provide a permanent form of government, limited in scope, but

effective in providing both liberty and order. Government was not

to be a matter of self-appointed rulers, governing by whim or harsh

ideology. It was not to be government by the strongest or for the

few. Our principles were revolutionary. We began as a small, weak

republic. But we survived. Our example inspired others, imperfectly

at times, but it inspired them nevertheless. This constitutional

republic, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition

that all men are created equal, prospered and grew strong. To this

day, America is still the abiding alternative to tyranny. That is

our purpose in the world -- nothing more and nothing less."

-- Ronald Reagan

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:38 am Post subject: Kreem Problem Again

Good post Paul.  Do you have any documentation that MEK is toxic, or at 

least any more than Acetone?  I haven't been able to find anything other 

than anecdotal.  No, I don't plan on making any mixed drinks with it, but 

I've smelled a lot of that stuff and I'm still here.  Then again, I don't 

let any more get on my skin that I have to.  Just being cautious.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 425+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert

 	  Quote: 	

 <paul(at)eucleides.com>

 On Sun, July 12, 2009 6:07 am, pperrynas wrote:

> 

 clip clip

> 1) Which is the better solvent for the Kreem, MEK or acetone?

 MEK - methyl ethyl ketone is probably a little better as regards to 

 saturation and

 hence is a little faster acting than acetone and should require fewer 

 slosh, rinse

 drain cycles than acetone. Prolonged MEK exposure to some composites can 

 cause

 swelling and softening. MEK is probably at least twice the unit cost of 

 acetone but

 should require about a third less. Now here is the real kicker - MEK is 

 very toxic and

 exposure effects are cumulative. One should not breathe any vapors and it 

 passes right

 through your bare skin into your bloodstream. You can die from a single 

 exposure

 event. You must be very careful using it and have a safety plan. MEK is 

 very flammable

 too and the flames are totally invisible. Acetone is less flammable but 

 still it

 presents a risk.

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:41 pm Post subject: Kreem Problem Again

On Sun, July 12, 2009 12:29 pm, fox5flyer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Good post Paul.  Do you have any documentation that MEK is toxic, or at

 least any more than Acetone?  I haven't been able to find anything other

 than anecdotal.


	


No, other than the allegation that there have been cases of a toxic shock nature that

were fatal.



 	  Quote: 	
		   No, I don't plan on making any mixed drinks with it, but

 I've smelled a lot of that stuff and I'm still here.  Then again, I don't

 let any more get on my skin that I have to.  Just being cautious.


	


MEK is regarded by PNL (Battelle, Richland) to have significant exposure risk as

compared to acetone.



I did not refer to any MSDS for my posting and should have as Lowell has pointed out.

-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA



"In Washington, one person's waste is another person's pork. Every

dime spent by the federal government has well-connected advocates

who swear the money is vital to the national interest. ... It's not

that people in government aren't as good or competent as those in

the private sector (though that may be true). The difference lies in

the incentives and feedback they face. Bureaucracies have little

check on what they do, no bottom line, no market prices for their

'output.' What they do have is an incentive to spend all the money

budgeted or risk getting less next year. As Milton Friedman used to

say, no one spends other people's money as carefully as he spends

his own. It is absurd to think the humongous constellation of

federal bureaucracies is going to identify and root out 'waste' in

any significant way. It's just not in the nature of the beast."

-- ABC's "20/20" co-anchor John Stossel



Plan your work for today and every day, then work your plan.

-- Margaret Thatcher

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

MDKitfox(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:58 pm Post subject: Kreem Problem Again

Here's an MSDS link for MEK.  It's not a friendly chemical, but handled properly it's okay.



Just wear protective gloves and safety glasses (in case of it splashes) and you should be fine.

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/m4628.htm



 Rick Weiss

N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS

SkyStar S/N 1

Port Orange, FL



 



On Jul 12, 2009, at 5:30 PM, Paul Franz - Merlin GT wrote:

[quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" <paul(at)eucleides.com (paul(at)eucleides.com)>



On Sun, July 12, 2009 12:29 pm, fox5flyer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net (fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net)>



Good post Paul.  Do you have any documentation that MEK is toxic, or at

least any more than Acetone?  I haven't been able to find anything other

than anecdotal.

	


No, other than the allegation that there have been cases of a toxic shock nature that

were fatal.



 	  Quote: 	
		  No, I don't plan on making any mixed drinks with it, but

I've smelled a lot of that stuff and I'm still here.  Then again, I don't

let any more get on my skin that I have to.  Just being cautious.

	


MEK is regarded by PNL (Battelle, Richland) to have significant exposure risk as

compared to acetone.



I did not refer to any MSDS for my posting and should have as Lowell has pointed out.

-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA



"In Washington, one person's waste is another person's pork. Every

dime spent by the federal government has well-connected advocates

who swear the money is vital to the national interest. ... It's not

that people in government aren't as good or competent as those in

the private sector (though that may be true). The difference lies in

the incentives and feedback they face. Bureaucracies have little

check on what they do, no bottom line, no market prices for their

'output.' What they do have is an incentive to spend all the money

budgeted or risk getting less next year. As Milton Friedman used to

say, no one spends other people's money as carefully as he spends

his own. It is absurd to think the humongous constellation of

federal bureaucracies is going to identify and root out 'waste' in

any significant way. It's just not in the nature of the beast."

-- ABC's "20/20" co-anchor John Stossel



Plan your work for today an================================================-=   -->

KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:33 pm Post subject: Kreem Problem Again

I think MEK is the best choice for cleaning Kreem coated tanks simply  because of the fact that Kreem is MEK based. 

  

 However, listen up!

  

 I believe MEK killed my brother.  Please use MEK with all reasonable  protective measures available.  Do not breath the stuff, get it on your  skin or expose your eyes to it's vapors.

  

 I have written about this death to the list in the past.  MEK causes  permanent damage to the brain, nervous system, kidneys, eyes and  liver.  These warnings are right on the MEK container.

  

 My brother Tom was a licensed  A&P mechanic.  He chose to  overlook all of the warnings and used MEK almost daily without protecting  himself.  He said: "You don't even smell the stuff after awhile".  He  loved the superior solvent that it is and used it to soak engine fuel injection  system parts in.  I can still picture him pouring a few gallons of the  stuff in the parts washing tub and scrubbing fuel injectors with a brush and his  bare hands.  He'd hook up an injector to pressure with MEK as a medium and  watch the perfect conical spray pattern in the bright light.  He enjoyed  doing the typical hanger rash repairs to aircraft by wet sanding wing tips,  wheel pants etc. with MEK.  He did a final wipe down with an MEK soaked  rag, mixed the paint with MEK for thinning and sprayed on the paint.   He had all of the hanger exhaust fans running and thought the concentrations  that he exposed himself to were small.

  

 At the end of his day he would wash the grease out of his hands and finger  nails with a wash up session at the parts washing tank.  He used to laugh  at my concerns that he should use more caution.  He was just 29 years old  and a pretty cocky but, very talented guy.  Pretty bull headed!

  

 Tom's work was stressfull much of the time.  He had to be right with  his troubleshooting and quick with emergency repairs.  Aircraft owners  want things done yesterday.  Tom began to experience heart burn problems  and indigestion pains.  The human liver produces enzymes for  digestion.  No one saw it coming.  I told him to stop eating the  beanie weinnies out of the machine in the hanger.  I told him to take time  to eat a balanced meal.  The pain persisted and his gut began to  swell.  I teased him about too much beer even though he drank little of  it.

  

 Inside of two years time he was dead from liver failure.  His death  came on the morning of his 30th birthday June 19, 1992.  His only daughter  graduated from high school this year, 2009.  She is a straight A student  and beautiful.  I wish she had known her daddy.  He was a terrific  guy!

  

 No autopsy was performed due to the shock that the whole family was  in.  His doctor told me MEK was the likely culprit.

  

 People can smoke their entire lives and not get lung cancer.  You can  lay in the sun for days and not get skin cancer.  You can use MEK to slosh  your tanks and not damage your eyes or liver.  Tom saturated himself with  the stuff.  For me, I think I'll use a pressurized  fresh air  supply mask and gloves.

  

 John P. Marzluf

 Outback 912S

 Columbus, Ohio

  

         

  

  In a message dated 7/12/2009 2:16:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  paul(at)eucleides.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT"    <paul(at)eucleides.com>



On Sun, July 12, 2009 6:07 am, pperrynas    wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "pperrynas"    <pperryrph(at)sbcglobal.net>

clip clip
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   1) Which is the better    solvent for the Kreem, MEK or acetone?


	


MEK - methyl ethyl ketone is    probably a little better as regards to saturation and

hence is a little    faster acting than acetone and should require fewer slosh, rinse

drain    cycles than acetone. Prolonged MEK exposure to some composites can    cause

swelling and softening. MEK is probably at least twice the unit cost    of acetone but

should require about a third less. Now here is the real    kicker - MEK is very toxic and

exposure effects are cumulative. One should    not breathe any vapors and it passes right

through your bare skin into your    bloodstream. You can die from a single exposure

event. You must be very    careful using it and have a safety plan. MEK is very flammable

too and the    flames are totally invisible. Acetone is less flammable but still    it

presents a risk.



 	  Quote: 	
		   2) Approx how long(solvent in contact with    kreem)  does it take to dissolve (talking

 minutes, hours or    days?)


	


Both MEK and acetone start to soften and dissolve the kreem    surface immediately. The

one time I watched the process was on aluminum    tanks with rivet construction. The

tanks were going to be modified for more    capacity. The tank size started at 11 gallons

and was expanded to 17    gallons. The tanks were removed from the wing, openings sealed

and first    flushed with under a quart of MEK for 5 to 10 minutes of rotation then    left

to sit about 20 minutes or so then rotated again for 5 minutes after    opening to the

fill cap to release the pressure. That process exposed the    cap seal to MEK and it

began to leak. Then the tank was drained and I was    surprised that what was drained out

was about the thickness of latex wall    paint. The process would have continued but by

now the tank filler cap    gasket was totally destroyed and a temporary fix had to be

done to    continue. The solution was a leather gasket made from an old work shoe.    The

second rinse was repeated with close to a quart and a half of MEK and    the drainage was

not thick and the inside of the aluminum tank looked    pretty clean with sort of a

frosting everywhere and a tiny bit of kreem    remaining at the edge of some of the

rivets but it might have been liquid    there too. The third rinse was with about a pint

of MEK and that was done    for three sessions of rotating at least 5 minutes and a rest

of 1 to 20    minutes. There was nearly nothing discoloring the drained MEK and    the

inside of the tanks appeared shiny clean.



After the tanks were    opened, welded and rivets added they were resloshed and the

result appears    to be permanent.



I don't know if you could follow this same procedure    with fiberglass tanks or not.

Might have to not soak them so long. At the    time I saw this done, I was not aware of

the level of toxicity of MEK    although I used some kind of plastic gloves and a

respirator when I helped.    I didn't get any on my skin but I sure got to know the smell

of it.    Painters using MEK use a forced fresh air supply piped into their clothes    so

they get zero exposure to it.



I was lead to believe that even    though the MEK was more expensive, you needed less and

the dissolving time    was faster. I don't know from experience though.



 	  Quote: 	
		                                                    2) Has    anyone

 successfully re-sloshed a tank after it had been in use for    several years?


	


I have no experience with fiberglass tanks at all. It's    sure been reported to occur

plenty of times over the years on this mail    list though.

-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin    GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA



"To take from one,    because it is thought his own industry and that

of his fathers has acquired    too much, in order to spare to others,

who, or whose fathers, have not    exercised equal industry and

skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first    principle of

association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of    his

industry and the fruits acquired by it."

-- Thomas    Jefferson



"We maintain our strength in order to deter and defend    against aggression -- to

preserve freedom and peace. Since the dawn of the    atomic age, we've sought to

reduce the risk of war by maintaining a strong    deterrent and by seeking genuine

arms control. 'Deterrence' means simply    this: making sure any adversary who

thinks about attacking the United    States, or our allies, or our vital

interests, concludes that the risks to    him outweigh any potential gains. Once

he understands that, he won't    attack. We maintain the peace through our

strength; weakness only invites    aggression."

-- Ronald Reagan



Americans are not a perfect people,    but we are called to a perfect mission.

--Andrew Jackson



It's    passionately interesting for me that the things that I learned in a

small    town, in a very modest home, are just the things that I believe

have won    the election.

-- Margaret Thatcher



The planter, the farmer, the    mechanic, and the laborer... form the

great body of the people of the    United States, they are the bone and

sinew of the country men who love    liberty and desire nothing but

equal rights and equal laws.

-- Andrew    Jackson



"The Founding Fathers established a system which meant a    radical

break from that which preceded it. A written constitution    would

provide a permanent form of government, limited in scope,    but

effective in providing both liberty and order. Government was not

to    be a matter of self-appointed rulers, governing by whim or harsh

ideology.    It was not to be government by the strongest or for the

few. Our principles    were revolutionary. We began as a small, weak

republic. But we survived.    Our example inspired others, imperfectly

at times, but it inspired them    nevertheless. This constitutional

republic, conceived in liberty and    dedicated to the proposition

that all men are created equal, prospered and    grew strong. To this

day, America is still the abiding alternative to    tyranny. That is

our purpose in the world -- nothing more and nothing    less."

-- Ronald  ===============================================

_-=    the  ties  Day  ================================================               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  ================================================             - List Contribution Web Site  sp;                             ===================================================



	


 An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!

  [quote][b]

paul perry

Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 36

Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Kreem Problem Again

I want to thank everyone who has responded to my questions as the input has been very helpful. I checked the msds sheets on both acetone and the mek and they were very similar..both rate the health risks as a "2" . I checked Lowes website and they show mek in 5gal for $99 and acetone in 1 gal for $16.98, so if they actually have them in the stores for those prices, there isn't much difference as far as cost. Again, thanks to everyone, but if someone else has personal experience with this type problem, please go ahead and reply as I will take all the advice I can get. 

Paul P.

Last edited by paul perry on Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:06 am; edited 1 time in total

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:57 am Post subject: Kreem Problem Again

Personal experience based on advice from the former head honcho at  

the former Kitfox builder, Skystar:  I had 12-year old tanks that  

WERE NEVER USED, but had been Kreeme'd.

I rinsed both (13-gallon wing tanks)...already installed in the  

wings, by the way... with acetone, using 3 gallons in the process,  

until the final application of acetone came out nearly clear. I  

diluted the Kreeme with MEK as suggested, but not sure of exact  

ratio, and applied by rotation. That was about 4 years ago. I've been  

flying with 100LL for the past three-plus years, and no sign of any  

flaking, peeling, or any other type of loss of the Kreeme.



Note:   I followed the instructions on the can of Kreeme to the  

letter, but did NOT use the tank prep material the the can  

instructions refer to, just the acetone for the cleaning.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 701.3 hrs

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Jul 12, 2009, at 9:43 PM, pperrynas wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <pperryrph(at)sbcglobal.net>



 I want to thank everyone who has responded to my questions as the  

 input has been very helpful. I checked the msds sheets on both  

 acetone and the mek and they were very similar..both rate the  

 health risks as a "2" . I checked Lowes website and they show mek  

 in 5gal for $99 and acetone in 1 gal for $16.98, so if they  

 actually have them in the stores for those prices, there isn't much  

 difference as far as cost. Again, thanks to everyone, but if  

 someone else has personal experience with this type problem, please  

 go ahead and reply and will take all the advice I can get.

 Paul P.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 52734#252734

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

napierm(at)cisco.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:42 am Post subject: Kreem Problem Again

Hi Paul,



I re-sloshed my left tank a couple of years back because it was leaking.



1st step was to spray on a water based masking compound onto nearby

areas of the wing to prevent damaging the paint.



Next was to make a simple jig to raise up the wing with ropes so I could

be sure that the new Kreem coated the inboard and outboard walls.



I rinsed the tank with acetone until it ran mostly clear.  It still has

some white in it.



Last was to use the Kreem un-thinned, a lot of it.  I got two quart

sized cans directly from Kreem.  It's on their web site.  Most all came

back out afterwards.  Overkill but at least it worked -> the leak was

gone.



I just left the regular gas cap on for the rinse and the slosh and

cleaned up later.



The new Kreem *is* different from what was used in 1992.  I don't know

when the change happened.  Trying to clean up the cap and a couple of

fittings after the Kreem set up for a few days was interesting.  It

whitened a little but didn't dissolve like the old stuff.  Not in

acetone, MEK or denatured alcohol.



Now I have a different problem.  I want to make my tanks alcohol-proof

and don't know how to do it short of buying new tanks from Kitfox.  Not

sure if any of the tank sealing products are really up to it.  There are

internal surfaces in the tank that will never be reached by a sloshing

operation so to do it right would mean taking the top off of the tank

and coating it inside with something.  What that something is I don't

know.



Any one have some solid leads?



Thanks,



Mark Napier

Time: 07:00:32 AM PST US

Subject: Re: Kreem Problem Again

From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com>

Hi Paul,



MEK not acetone. You will not dissolve the Kreem. It is meant to stand

up to most

all fluids or it wouldn't be any good. Sounds like some one didn't do a

good

job of pre-cleaning or sloshing the tank the first time. It should not

peal

or flake.

Get as much of the loose Kreem out as possible. Use the MEK to clean the

tank,

but it is not necessary to leave it in long periods and depending on the

tank

material might be harmful to do so. You can re-slosh your tank with out

any problems.

Just do a good job of sloshing and rotating the tank. Do it at least

three

times in one day. Rotate slowly and completely.



--------

Roger Lee

Tucson, Az.

Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

Rotax Service Center

520-574-1080

Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 52639#252639

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:24 am Post subject: Kreem Problem Again

No leads on an alcohol-proof sealer, but just curious about your  

statement "There are internal surfaces in the tank that will never be  

reached by a sloshing operation"....I'm not sure what you mean by  

this. And if you took the top off the tank, how would you ever seal  

the inside seam where you re-joined the tank top?



All this worry about resisting the alcohol in mogas makes me wonder  

why people don't bite the bullet and use 100LL....it's safe,  

convenient to airports, doesn't eat through (most) fuel  tanks, and  

until they do, it's the fuel that the Feds haven't mucked around  

with...YET!  I'm not rich, but I'd rather pay the little extra for  

100LL, and FLY, rather than putz around with fuel tank problems.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 701.3 hrs

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Jul 13, 2009, at 1:30 PM, Mark Napier (napierm) wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <napierm(at)cisco.com>



 Hi Paul,



     (snip)
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Now I have a different problem.  I want to make my tanks alcohol-proof

 and don't know how to do it short of buying new tanks from Kitfox.   

 Not

 sure if any of the tank sealing products are really up to it.   

 There are

 internal surfaces in the tank that will never be reached by a sloshing

 operation so to do it right would mean taking the top off of the tank

 and coating it inside with something.  What that something is I don't

 know.



 Any one have some solid leads?



 Thanks,



 Mark Napier

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

vadert(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:59 am Post subject: Kreem Problem Again

Mark

  6nbsp;

 I used this product E 6nbsp; I phoned Caswell 6nbsp;and they assured me that it was ethanol resistant E 6nbsp; Methanol C they weren 7t so sure about E

  6nbsp;

 http://www Ecaswellplating Ecom/aids/epoxygas Ehtm

  6nbsp;

 Tim Vader

 Kitfox 6nbsp;IV

 GPASC 6nbsp;VW

 



---

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:03 pm Post subject: Kreem Problem Again

Lynn C What is your Oshkosh schedule? do not archive

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net

 Subject: Re: Re: Kreem Problem Again

 Date: Mon C 13 Jul 2009 14:22:20 -0400

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 

 No leads on an alcohol-proof sealer C but just curious about your 

 statement "There are internal surfaces in the tank that will never be 

 reached by a sloshing operation"....I'm not sure what you mean by 

 this. And if you took the top off the tank C how would you ever seal 

 the inside seam where you re-joined the tank top?

 

 All this worry about resisting the alcohol in mogas makes me wonder 

 why people don't bite the bullet and use 100LL....it's safe C 

 convenient to airports C doesn't eat through (most) fuel tanks C and 

 until they do C it's the fuel that the Feds haven't mucked around 

 with...YET! I'm not rich C but I'd rather pay the little extra for 

 100LL C and FLY C rather than putz around with fuel tank problems.

 

 

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster C taildragger

 Jabiru 2200 C #2062 C 701.3 hrs

 Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

 Electroair direct-fire ignition system

 Status: flying

 

 

 

 

 On Jul 13 C 2009 C at 1:30 PM C Mark Napier (napierm) wrote:

 

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Mark Napier (napierm)" 

 > <napierm(at)cisco.com>

 >

 > Hi Paul C

 >

 (snip)

 

 

 > Now I have a different problem. I want to make my tanks alcohol-proof

 > and don't know how to do it short of buying new tanks from Kitfox. 

 > Not

 > sure if any of the tank sealing products are really up to it. 

 > There are

 > internal surfaces in the tank that will never be reached by a sloshing

 > operation so to do it right would mean taking the top off of the tank

 > and coating it inside with something. What that something is I don't

 > know.

 >

 > Any one have some solid leads?

 >

 > Thanks C

 >

 > Mark Napier

 

&==========
	


[quote] 

 

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:50 pm Post subject: Kreem Problem Again

This subject is very timely for me.  I was planning on covering the left 

wing soon and my tanks are 1992 vintage with vintage Kreem.  I guess I 

should be thinking of a re-do of the liner to a more up to date version.  I 

was very tempted to try the epoxy liner that Tim used and did a bit of 

looking and found a discussion board where one guy used it and if flaked - 

metal tank and definitely not our issue - but the point of his post was that 

he can't find anything that will remove it.  He's looking at new tanks. 

Then, the application of the epoxy liner requires total removal of Kreem 

with a paint remover type compound after the Acetone/MEK treatment and like 

Paul I my tanks are in a flying configuration with lots of effort to reslosh 

and get the liner everywhere - been there done that once already!



The permanence of the phenol novolac epoxy is interesting to me because I 

like to think anything on my airplane is serviceable to some extent.  I 

suppose that surface preperation is what caused the flaking on the metal 

tank but the multistep prep on my already Kreemed tanks gives me pause 

because if my prep is not perfect, I am looking at two entire wing rebuilds.



I need some input - encouragement or discouragement - Any wisdom would be 

appreciated at this point.



Lowell Fitt

Cameron Park, CA

Model IV-1200 R-912 UL

Covering

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:26 pm Post subject: Kreem Problem Again

Lowell C If it was me C and my wing wasn't covered C I would attempt to secure tanks that didn't require Kreem or similar coating. I had an experience with a streetrod C 47 Ford coupe C that I built using the original tank that I had Kreemed. The tank prep was probably lacking I will admit. But the Kreem let go in big flakes that didn't pass through the pickup tube so that none was picked up in the filters. I thought I had a vaporlock problem because the fuel line did run closer to the exhaust than I wanted. It took me a long C long time to realize that the pickup tube was being blocked intermitently by big pieces of Kreem. I now have a brand new plastic rotomolded tank in that car. I swore I'd never use Kreem again. I'll bite the bullet and purchase new tanks for any projects in the future C and that includes aircraft projects. That's just me though.

 do not archive

  

 P.S. Got the bush gear completely mounted with wheels and on the ground. I need to make some cuffs at fuselage. That gear sure looks good on a KF. I never thought Grove gear looked period correct on a KF and am glad I didn't purchase it prior to your development of bush gear. And C thanks for desigining that fairing set up C absolutely beautiful! Your suggestion of using a 4x30 tap to align the fairing worked as described. I only had to use it on 4 or 5 holes so your apology was not warrented. I don't think the fairing holes could have been aligned any better. I will post pictures of the plane in a couple of weeks.

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford CIL

 

[quote] From: lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Kreem Problem Again

 Date: Mon C 13 Jul 2009 14:45:04 -0700

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>

 

 This subject is very timely for me. I was planning on covering the left 

 wing soon and my tanks are 1992 vintage with vintage Kreem. I guess I 

 should be thinking of a re-do of the liner to a more up to date version. I 

 was very tempted to try the epoxy liner that Tim used and did a bit of 

 looking and found a discussion board where one guy used it and if flaked - 

 metal tank and definitely not our issue - but the point of his post was that 

 he can't find anything that will remove it. He's looking at new tanks. 

 Then C the application of the epoxy liner requires total removal of Kreem 

 with a paint remover type compound after the Acetone/MEK treatment and like 

 Paul I my tanks are in a flying configuration with lots of effort to reslosh 

 and get the liner everywhere - been there done that once already!

 

 The permanence of the phenol novolac epoxy is interesting to me because I 

 like to think anything on my airplane is serviceable to some extent. I 

 suppose that surface preperation is what caused the flaking on the metal 

 tank but the multistep prep on my already Kreemed tanks gives me pause 

 because if my prep is not perfect C I am looking at two entire wing rebuilds.

 

 I need some input - encouragement or discouragement - Any wisdom would be 

 appreciated at this point.

 

 Lowell Fitt

 Cameron Park C CA

 Model IV-1200 R-912 UL

 Covering 

 <========================> 

 

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject: Kreem Problem Again

I'm probably going to leave here on Sat or Sun, the weekend before  

they open, and stay for 4-5 days. I like to get there before the good  

spots in homebuilt camping are all gone. By good spots, that means  

close to the showers/johns, but more importantly the ICE!



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 702 hrs

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying

do not archive



On Jul 13, 2009, at 3:59 PM, patrick reilly wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn, What is your Oshkosh schedule? do not archive



 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL



 > From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net

 > Subject: Re: Re: Kreem Problem Again

 > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:22:20 -0400

 > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 >

 > 

 >

 > No leads on an alcohol-proof sealer, but just curious about your

 > statement "There are internal surfaces in the tank that will  

 never be

 > reached by a sloshing operation"....I'm not sure what you mean by

 > this. And if you took the top off the tank, how would you ever seal

 > the inside seam where you re-joined the tank top?

 >

 > All this worry about resisting the alcohol in mogas makes me wonder

 > why people don't bite the bullet and use 100LL....it's safe,

 > convenient to airports, doesn't eat through (most) fuel tanks, and

 > until they do, it's the fuel that the Feds haven't mucked around

 > with...YET! I'm not rich, but I'd rather pay the little extra for

 > 100LL, and FLY, rather than putz around with fuel tank problems.

 >

 >

 > Lynn Matteson

 > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 701.3 hrs

 > Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

 > Electroair direct-fire ignition system

 > Status: flying

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > On Jul 13, 2009, at 1:30 PM, Mark Napier (napierm) wrote:

 >

 > > 

 > > <napierm(at)cisco.com>

 > >

 > > Hi Paul,

 > >

 > (snip)

 >

 >

 > > Now I have a different problem. I want to make my tanks alcohol- 

 proof

 > > and don't know how to do it short of buying new tanks from Kitfox.

 > > Not

 > > sure if any of the tank sealing products are really up to it.

 > > There are

 > > internal surfaces in the tank that will never be reached by a  

 sloshing

 > > operation so to do it right would mean taking the top off of  

 the tank

 > > and coating it inside with something. What that something is I  

 don't

 > > know.

 > >

 > > Any one have some solid leads?

 > >

 > > Thanks,

 > >

 > > Mark Napier

 >

 &==========

 >

 >

 >

 ============================================================ _- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 contribution_- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:26 pm Post subject: Kreem Problem Again

Lowell-

My tanks were January 1994 vintage, and Frank Miller suggested that I  

slosh out the old Kreeme and *install* a fresh coating. I had already  

glued the tanks into the wings, so I had to rotate the entire wing on  

the jig, AND turn it end-for-end...by myself....so it can be done.  

This was no small feat with a 12-foot wing and an 11-foot 10-inch or  

so, ceiling. It was cold weather here, and you don't have that  

problem. : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 702 hrs

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Jul 13, 2009, at 5:45 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>



 This subject is very timely for me.  I was planning on covering the  

 left wing soon and my tanks are 1992 vintage with vintage Kreem.  I  

 guess I should be thinking of a re-do of the liner to a more up to  

 date version.  I was very tempted to try the epoxy liner that Tim  

 used and did a bit of looking and found a discussion board where  

 one guy used it and if flaked - metal tank and definitely not our  

 issue - but the point of his post was that he can't find anything  

 that will remove it.  He's looking at new tanks. Then, the  

 application of the epoxy liner requires total removal of Kreem with  

 a paint remover type compound after the Acetone/MEK treatment and  

 like Paul I my tanks are in a flying configuration with lots of  

 effort to reslosh and get the liner everywhere - been there done  

 that once already!



 The permanence of the phenol novolac epoxy is interesting to me  

 because I like to think anything on my airplane is serviceable to  

 some extent.  I suppose that surface preperation is what caused the  

 flaking on the metal tank but the multistep prep on my already  

 Kreemed tanks gives me pause because if my prep is not perfect, I  

 am looking at two entire wing rebuilds.



 I need some input - encouragement or discouragement - Any wisdom  

 would be appreciated at this point.



 Lowell Fitt

 Cameron Park, CA

 Model IV-1200 R-912 UL

 Covering

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:37 pm Post subject: Kreem Problem Again

Just like sex, preparation is everything, Patrick.....maybe you  

didn't talk sweet enough to that hot rod tank. : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 702 hrs

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying

do not archive



On Jul 13, 2009, at 6:23 PM, patrick reilly wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   The tank prep was probably lacking I will admit.

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

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