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Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition

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captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:53 pm Post subject: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition

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kugelair.com



=============

Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:48:14 -0400

From: "Ron  (at)  KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Spark Plugs Condition



I am attaching a couple of pics of the plugs. They have some specs of carbon on them I think.

can experienced 2 cycle drivers tell me what they think.

I am not sure if its running too rich or too much oil, I am at about 38/1 on the oil mix because I calculated 124 fluid ounces per gallon as opposed to 128 oz per gallon. So I am a bit rich on the oil side, not by much though and I am using none synthetic as I had some bottles of it I want to use up. The motor is running fine, just finished a 1.5 hr mission without any negative events.=============

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williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:42 am Post subject: Fwd: Spark plugs condition

Ron- The first thing I noticed was the spark plug number.  What engine do you have?  I thought most of the two stroke Rotax engines used a B8 or B8ES.  

  

                                                   Bill Sullivan

                                                   Windsor Locks, Ct.

                                                   FS 447

 [quote][b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:50 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition

 	  captainron1(at)cox.net wrote: 	
		  --

kugelair.com



=============

Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:48:14 -0400

From: "Ron  (at)  KFHU" <captainron1>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Spark Plugs Condition



I am attaching a couple of pics of the plugs. They have some specs of carbon on them I think.

can experienced 2 cycle drivers tell me what they think.

I am not sure if its running too rich or too much oil, I am at about 38/1 on the oil mix because I calculated 124 fluid ounces per gallon as opposed to 128 oz per gallon. So I am a bit rich on the oil side, not by much though and I am using none synthetic as I had some bottles of it I want to use up. The motor is running fine, just finished a 1.5 hr mission without any negative events.============= 	




Well it won't be running fine for too much longer with plugs like that......... They're practically fully oil-fouled........ This is a Rotax motor?



You already know you're running too much oil (because 50:1 is the required amount) and perhaps you're running to rich too.



As someone else said, the plugs are the wrong ones also, if you're running the Rotax you need to use the B8ES/BR8ES (I think the 7 is a colder plug).



Here's what I'd do _before flying again_:



- pull the exhaust manifold and check for stuck rings. Turn the crank until the rings are visible in the exhaust port. Rock the crank back and forth very slightly and check for play in the rings. They should move minutely in the grooves. If you don't see this, I'd take the motor out of service and do a teardown/decarb.



- if that checks out, new set of plugs.

- go to 50:1 on the oil.

- reset the jetting for your altitude and temp according to the rotax jetting chart (if you changed it from stock).



I wouldn't fly that engine again until you've done at least these steps....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:00 am Post subject: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition

> I wouldn't fly that engine again until you've done at least these 

steps....

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 LS


	


Before I did all that, I'd check to see what engine we are talking about and 

if a proper plug check was done.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:16 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  > I wouldn't fly that engine again until you've done at least these 

steps....

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 LS



	


Before I did all that, I'd check to see what engine we are talking about and 

if a proper plug check was done.



john h

mkIII 	




Actually, I wouldn't want to see plugs like that come out of a 2-stroke of any make, much less one running on an airplane........



But then again, as we all know, my bravery as a pilot is towards the lower end of the scale so... take my advice for what it's worth (i.e. what you paid for it)......



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:39 am Post subject: Fwd: Spark plugs condition

It's a Cuyuna 430. The recommended range for light duty cycle is B7,  B8 is good if you keep the power in as in heavier machines. In the Dac I fly it at about 50-60% throttle most of the time.



================

 

---- william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net> wrote: 



=============

Â  Ron- The first thing I noticed was the spark plug number.Â  What engine do you have?Â  I thought most of the two stroke Rotax engines used a B8 or B8ES.Â  

Â 

Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  Bill Sullivan

Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  Windsor Locks, Ct.

Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  FS 447

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kugelair.com

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:43 am Post subject: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition

At 12:44 AM 7/14/09 -0400, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --

Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:48:14 -0400

From: "Ron  (at)  KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net>


	


Ron,



What ever engine you are using, it is running much too rich.  Richard Pike 

has a very good explaination of how to read plugs on his web site at:



http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg11.htm



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:53 am Post subject: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition

Right John

It's the recommended heat range for the duty on the Cuyuna. It may be running rich a bit, I may play with the valve needle this weekend when the tower is closed here. I will also try the synthetic oil that I have to see how it looks. I know it kept my Yamaha clean from carbon. I have only one mission left and I sure don't want to screw around with that more than I minimally have to. Once I am done with this job for all I care they can recycle this lawn chair into beer cans (even though it's getting to be fun flying this weird contraption).

===============================





---- John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote: 



=============


 > I wouldn't fly that engine again until you've done at least these 

steps....

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 LS


	


Before I did all that, I'd check to see what engine we are talking about and 

if a proper plug check was done.



john h

mkIII



--

kugelair.com

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:11 am Post subject: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition

Thanks Jack

I'll move the clip one notch up on the scale. It's a Cuyuna 430 with a Mikuni carb.

This will be todays project I guess. Density altitude is around 8K nowadays, and best I know the old boy that owned it was from PHX about 1K msl or at most 3K in summer. Right now the clip is attached on the second groove from the bottom, so its fairly rich I guess?

============================





---- "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net> wrote: 



=============




At 12:44 AM 7/14/09 -0400, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --

Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:48:14 -0400

From: "Ron  (at)  KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net>


	


Ron,



What ever engine you are using, it is running much too rich.  Richard Pike 

has a very good explaination of how to read plugs on his web site at:



http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg11.htm



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

--

kugelair.com

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:11 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition

 	  captainron1(at)cox.net wrote: 	
		  Right John

It's the recommended heat range for the duty on the Cuyuna. It may be running rich a bit, I may play with the valve needle this weekend when the tower is closed here. I will also try the synthetic oil that I have to see how it looks. I know it kept my Yamaha clean from carbon. I have only one mission left and I sure don't want to screw around with that more than I minimally have to. Once I am done with this job for all I care they can recycle this lawn chair into beer cans (even though it's getting to be fun flying this weird contraption).



	




The pictures of the plugs in the link Jack sent are pretty much spot on on what you want to see in any 2-stroke, cuyuna, Rotax or otherwise. You want a dry, chocolate brown and not a wet, black plug. 

This will be the same regardless of the type of oil used (i.e. dino vs synthetic).



I stand by my recommendations for basic checks before flying again, particularly if the motor has been operated this rich for an extended period of time. 



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

dalewhelan

Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:59 pm Post subject: Re: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition

B7ES is Hotter than B8ES.

The heat range is about the plugs ability to transfer heat from the combustion chamber to the head.

The plugs look rich. I could guess and say at all throttle openings but that is dangerously presumptuous. The reality is you need to know how the motor was being run when that color developed.

The plug temperature was too cold at shut down for me to be able to determine if you ignition timing/ fuel octane is correct.

Correct this with jetting first, changing to a hotter plug could be disastrous.

My experience is that most people on this board will tell you you are running too much oil. I don't want to revisit that, I can tell you that the amount of oil you are running is not causing the problem you are having.

I have seen it at 50:1 on motors with too large a needle jet.

There are many pitfalls in jetting a motor, especially 2 strokes. For example, needle jets wear, you may be skilled enough to figure out that you are rich on the needle jet and change from a worn out one to a good one a step leaner. Now you are too lean. There are many good sources about jetting. If you want you can contact me and I will help. If you want you can google my name to see if you think I can be of any help to you.

I used to teach carbeuration

_________________
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II, Luscombe 8A
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:22 am Post subject: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition

Well, after reading the postings, I adjusted the jetting to a leaner clip. Density alt around here is around 8K. A too rich a mixture obviously automatically means too rich an oil as its introduced alongside with the fuel, and of course leaves more oil on the internals . I'll keep the oil ratio at least what I already prepared as is and see how it works out with the leaner needle settings.

I also peeked into the motor by removing the muffler and it looks just fine in there the rings are free in their grooves. So that pretty much reinforces the observation that it's simply too rich mixture and probably running too cold because of it. So the hotter plugs probably is a very good idea. I have no instruments so all I can do is deduce from what I see. This weekend (tower is closed) or afternoon if the wind is low I am going to take it up and see  how it performs with the needle at its new setting. Its real easy working on this motor as compared with my usual working on Lycomings. No need for a cherry picker can do everything with my own strength and very quick. Its kinda fun working on this toy like motor.



=================================

---- dalewhelan <dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net> wrote: 



=============




B7ES is Hotter than B8ES.

The heat range is about the plugs ability to transfer heat from the combustion chamber to the head.

The plugs look rich. I could guess and say at all throttle openings but that is dangerously presumptuous. The reality is you need to know how the motor was being run when that color developed.

The plug temperature was too cold at shut down for me to be able to determine if you ignition timing/ fuel octane is correct.

Correct this with jetting first, changing to a hotter plug could be disastrous.

My experience is that most people on this board will tell you you are running too much oil. I don't want to revisit that, I can tell you that the amount of oil you are running is not causing the problem you are having.

I have seen it at 50:1 on motors with too large a needle jet.

There are many pitfalls in jetting a motor, especially 2 strokes. For example, needle jets wear, you may be skilled enough to figure out that you are rich on the needle jet and change from a worn out one to a good one a step leaner. Now you are too lean. There are many good sources about jetting. If you want you can contact me and I will help. If you want you can google my name to see if you think I can be of any help to you.

I used to teach carbeuration



--------

Dale Whelan

503 powered Firestar II

Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 53076#253076



--

kugelair.com

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition

 	  captainron1(at)cox.net wrote: 	
		  Well, after reading the postings, I adjusted the jetting to a leaner clip. Density alt around here is around 8K. A too rich a mixture obviously automatically means too rich an oil as its introduced alongside with the fuel, and of course leaves more oil on the internals . I'll keep the oil ratio at least what I already prepared as is and see how it works out with the leaner needle settings.

I also peeked into the motor by removing the muffler and it looks just fine in there the rings are free in their grooves. So that pretty much reinforces the observation that it's simply too rich mixture and probably running too cold because of it. So the hotter plugs probably is a very good idea. I have no instruments so all I can do is deduce from what I see. This weekend (tower is closed) or afternoon if the wind is low I am going to take it up and see  how it performs with the needle at its new setting. Its real easy working on this motor as compared with my usual working on Lycomings. No need for a cherry picker can do everything with my own strength and very quick. Its kinda fun working on this toy like motor.

	




That's one of the main niceties of flying a 2-stroke - mere mortals like myself can actually work on them. Toolsets are cheaper, training is easier etc .



Back in TX we had a fair number of Cuyana's flying on various planes and they seemed to give pretty decent service. The only problem was overheating of the rear cylinder if run too hard. Many were replaced with the 447 which usually fixed the problem tho....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:41 am Post subject: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition

Yeah I am hearing about the running too hot, but that's not a problem with the contraption I am flying right now. If I were to keep it I would instrument it more. But then it would ruin a perfectly good flying session. I have already stepped up to high tech by buying and installing a Hal speed indicator $25. Seems right on the money if I cross check it to the GPS. Hell I scared myself on the last flight when I noticed I was actually cruising at around 45 MPH. I blame the new trim gizmo I installed, a brand new Walmart bungee cord that takes the strain off my arm. It keep the contraption from climbing on 55% power so now its actually moving faster than the little biting bugs around here.



============================================



---- lucien <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> wrote: 



=============


captainron1(at)cox.net wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Well, after reading the postings, I adjusted the jetting to a leaner clip. Density alt around here is around 8K. A too rich a mixture obviously automatically means too rich an oil as its introduced alongside with the fuel, and of course leaves more oil on the internals . I'll keep the oil ratio at least what I already prepared as is and see how it works out with the leaner needle settings.

 I also peeked into the motor by removing the muffler and it looks just fine in there the rings are free in their grooves. So that pretty much reinforces the observation that it's simply too rich mixture and probably running too cold because of it. So the hotter plugs probably is a very good idea. I have no instruments so all I can do is deduce from what I see. This weekend (tower is closed) or afternoon if the wind is low I am going to take it up and see  how it performs with the needle at its new setting. Its real easy working on this motor as compared with my usual working on Lycomings. No need for a cherry picker can do everything with my own strength and very quick. Its kinda fun working on this toy like motor.

 


	




That's one of the main niceties of flying a 2-stroke - mere mortals like myself can actually work on them. Toolsets are cheaper, training is easier etc .



Back in TX we had a fair number of Cuyana's flying on various planes and they seemed to give pretty decent service. The only problem was overheating of the rear cylinder if run too hard. Many were replaced with the 447 which usually fixed the problem tho....



LS



--------

LS

Titan II SS





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 53173#253173



--

kugelair.com

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition

 	  captainron1(at)cox.net wrote: 	
		  Yeah I am hearing about the running too hot, but that's not a problem with the contraption I am flying right now. If I were to keep it I would instrument it more. But then it would ruin a perfectly good flying session. I have already stepped up to high tech by buying and installing a Hal speed indicator $25. Seems right on the money if I cross check it to the GPS. Hell I scared myself on the last flight when I noticed I was actually cruising at around 45 MPH. I blame the new trim gizmo I installed, a brand new Walmart bungee cord that takes the strain off my arm. It keep the contraption from climbing on 55% power so now its actually moving faster than the little biting bugs around here.

	




I know we're drifting off topic a bit but... 

The Halls gauges are actually astonishingly accurate, the only drawback being they they have to be dangling out in the wind, kind of along with the pilot.... I used a halls on a couple of my ultralights and they always worked very well.



The bungee cord method of trim is time-honored and works fine. I trim my titan with one wrapped around the bottom of the right rudder pedal, still the one JD put there when he built the plane. I'm told that's actually a slightly less draggy method of trimming than putting on a trim tab as well.



Speaking of that, I adhere to the corkscrewing air theory on the titan as well, as it has left-going tendency with power applied which is the reason for the bungee. Yet it's a LH pusher which should go to the right due to torque and, at high AoA's, P-factor......



LS

LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

dalewhelan

Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: Fwd: Spark Plugs Condition

A little about mid range jetting.

Moving the clip has most effect from about 1/2 to 3/4 throttle.

Changing the needle jet effect from about 1/8 to 3/4 throttle.

The reason this works is that the clip only changes when the needle starts to taper in the jet. This does not happen until the throttle is opened a bit.

Changing the needle jet diameter effects the fuel flowing past the needle at all positions.

_________________
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II, Luscombe 8A
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept

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