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frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
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 Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:47 am Post subject: throttle cable greensky |
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I bought a throttle cable kit for a HKS from jerry at greensky at 81
hrs -yesterday - the
cable broke . lucky for me , I was doing a touch and go and was
climbing through about
50 ft. when it let go and I had plenty of runway left. the engine went
to idle I landed ,end of
problelm except for a long push to get off the runway. I haven't found
why it broke.when i do
i'll post it. May go back with a larger cable
Frank Goodnight
Firestar 2
Brownsville ,TX
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aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:21 pm Post subject: throttle cable greensky |
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Frank, This is something I've thought about since I started flying the HKS. I think I'm going to get the 912 cable linkage and install it this winter. It works as an aircraft should and sends the engine to full power if the throttle cable breaks.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 6:46 AM, frank.goodnight <frank.goodnight(at)att.net (frank.goodnight(at)att.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "frank.goodnight" <frank.goodnight(at)att.net (frank.goodnight(at)att.net)>
I bought a throttle cable kit for a HKS from jerry at greensky at 81 hrs -yesterday - the
cable broke . lucky for me , I was doing a touch and go and was climbing through about
50 ft. when it let go and I had plenty of runway left. the engine went to idle I landed ,end of
problelm except for a long push to get off the runway. I haven't found why it broke.when i do
i'll post it. May go back with a larger cable
Frank Goodnight
Firestar 2
Brownsville ,TX
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frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
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| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:12 pm Post subject: throttle cable greensky |
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Rick who would one see about getting a 912 type setup?
Frank Goodnight
do not archive
On Jul 18, 2009, at 10:16 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
[quote]Frank, This is something I've thought about since I started flying the HKS. I think I'm going to get the 912 cable linkage and install it this winter. It works as an aircraft should and sends the engine to full power if the throttle cable breaks.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 6:46 AM, frank.goodnight <frank.goodnight(at)att.net (frank.goodnight(at)att.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution [/b] |
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Thom Riddle
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:12 am Post subject: Re: throttle cable greensky |
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I can't say for sure about the Bings on the HKS but the Bing 64 carbs on the 912 series, you can move the lower end of the spring to switch the spring action direction. I do this when installing new cables to make sure the throttles are closed against the idle stop during initial connection of the cable, then move them back to the normal hold open position.
Ever try to push a rope?
If you want the cable to push the throttle against spring tension, the throttle cable should be the solid wire type. For pulling against the tension spring the wire rope type can be used and is more flexible.
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Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
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aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:23 am Post subject: throttle cable greensky |
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Frank, I haven't researched it to find if it is a Rotax part or a Bing part. I'll give Charlie at the Bing Agency in Council Grove a call in the morning and let you know.
Rick
do not archive
On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 11:11 PM, frank.goodnight <frank.goodnight(at)att.net (frank.goodnight(at)att.net)> wrote:
[quote] Rick who would one see about getting a 912 type setup?
Frank Goodnight
do not archive
On Jul 18, 2009, at 10:16 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
| Quote: | Frank, This is something I've thought about since I started flying the HKS. I think I'm going to get the 912 cable linkage and install it this winter. It works as an aircraft should and sends the engine to full power if the throttle cable breaks.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 6:46 AM, frank.goodnight <frank.goodnight(at)att.net (frank.goodnight(at)att.net)> wrote:
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frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:51 am Post subject: throttle cable greensky |
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Rick, thanks for your help . The way its rigged now , when the cable breaks it's the same as a total engine failure. I want to change to something better.
Frank Goodnight
do not archive
On Jul 19, 2009, at 1:23 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
[quote]Frank, I haven't researched it to find if it is a Rotax part or a Bing part. I'll give Charlie at the Bing Agency in Council Grove a call in the morning and let you know.
Rick
do not archive
On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 11:11 PM, frank.goodnight <frank.goodnight(at)att.net (frank.goodnight(at)att.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Rick who would one see about getting a 912 type setup?
Frank Goodnight
do not archive
On Jul 18, 2009, at 10:16 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
| Quote: | Frank, This is something I've thought about since I started flying the HKS. I think I'm going to get the 912 cable linkage and install it this winter. It works as an aircraft should and sends the engine to full power if the throttle cable breaks.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 6:46 AM, frank.goodnight <frank.goodnight(at)att.net (frank.goodnight(at)att.net)> wrote:
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href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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dalewhelan
Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: throttle cable greensky |
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Frank, glad you are safe.
I used to make throttle cables and such for motorcycles.
I think aircraft Spruce may have the tools and parts you need.
I had great success with dipping the part in some chemical they offered (an acid?) and then into a solder pot.
Just fray the ends so they can't fit through the fittings and fill the void with the solder.
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Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II, Luscombe 8A
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept |
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aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:23 pm Post subject: throttle cable greensky |
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If anyone is looking around for a solder pot, DO NOT go to an aircraft supply outfit for it, go to an electronics supplier. I got exactly the same solder pot for about $30 less. Yes the flux used is an acid flux. See if you can find a local stained glass shop for it, otherwise shipping companies want a hazardous material fee that jacks up the shipping cost, too.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 5:12 PM, dalewhelan <dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net (dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "dalewhelan" <dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net (dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net)>
Frank, glad you are safe.
I used to make throttle cables and such for motorcycles.
I think aircraft Spruce may have the tools and parts you need.
I had great success with dipping the part in some chemical they offered (an acid?) and then into a solder pot.
Just fray the ends so they can't fit through the fittings and fill the void with the solder.
--------
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253777#253777
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Jim Baker
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 181
Location: Sayre, PA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:55 pm Post subject: throttle cable greensky |
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X-SpamReason %%SpamReason%%:
| Quote: | If anyone is looking around for a solder pot, DO NOT go to an aircraft
supply outfit for it, go to an electronics supplier.
|
My pot was created out of a spare piece of AL tube and judicious use
of a propane torch...not too much heat, just enough to keep the
solder shiny. All of $1.00 invested.
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
405. 426.5377 cell
Elmore City, OK
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aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:10 pm Post subject: throttle cable greensky |
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Thom, No need to push with a cable, just make the change from pulling the throttle open to pulling it closed.
Rick
do not archive
On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 6:12 AM, Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)>
I can't say for sure about the Bings on the HKS but the Bing 64 carbs on the 912 series, you can move the lower end of the spring to switch the spring action direction. I do this when installing new cables to make sure the throttles are closed against the idle stop during initial connection of the cable, then move them back to the normal hold open position.
Ever try to push a rope?
If you want the cable to push the throttle against spring tension, the throttle cable should be the solid wire type. For pulling against the tension spring the wire rope type can be used and is more flexible.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
http://riddletr.googlepages.com/sportpilot-cfi
http://riddletr.googlepages.com/a%26pmechanix
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.
- John Gaule
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253697#253697
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Thom Riddle
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:40 am Post subject: Re: throttle cable greensky |
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Rick,
You are correct about pulling either way if the installation has room for doing that. In some, the space allows only for the throttle installation to go one way. In that situation if you must PUSH to get the spring action in the direction you want, then a solid wire type throttle should be used. It also depends upon the type of throttle used, lever, or push/pull etc. I was just indicating the need for solid wire if pushing.
do not archive
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Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
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aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:52 pm Post subject: throttle cable greensky |
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Frank, Called the Bing Agency this afternoon and Charlie, the owner, was out. He'll be back on Wednesday and I'll try again. The light bulb went off this evening and I thought of the 912 / 914 Illustrated Parts Catalog. Sure enough in section 22, Bing Carb, I found all the parts. If you don't have a copy it can be had from R.O.A.N. Rather long download. You'll also want a copy of the 912 Installation Manual. On page 96 it shows how the various parts work together and giving instructions for proper set up.
IPC # Rotax Part # Side # RQD Description
45 963025 cyl 1 1 Throttle valve lever
45 963020 cyl 2 1 " " "
46 241847 2 Allen Screw M5 X 12
47 847740 2 Graduated Sleeve
48 827800 2 Washer A 5.5
49 842030 4 Lock Nut M5
50 938289 2 Return Spring
56 851071 cyl 1 1 Support
56 851073 cyl 2 1 "
58 241440 2 Adjustment Screw M6 X .75
59 942541 4 Hex Nut M6 X .75 height 3mm
NOTE: The return spring may be the same on both engines, I have no way of telling
Well, that should be all the parts required to change over from a pull open throttle to a pulled closed one.
Rick Girard
On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 1:50 PM, frank.goodnight <frank.goodnight(at)att.net (frank.goodnight(at)att.net)> wrote:
[quote]Rick, thanks for your help . The way its rigged now , when the cable breaks it's the same as a total engine failure. I want to change to something better.
Frank Goodnight
do not archive
On Jul 19, 2009, at 1:23 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
| Quote: |
Frank, I haven't researched it to find if it is a Rotax part or a Bing part. I'll give Charlie at the Bing Agency in Council Grove a call in the morning and let you know.
Rick
do not archive
On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 11:11 PM, frank.goodnight <frank.goodnight(at)att.net (frank.goodnight(at)att.net)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Rick who would one see about getting a 912 type setup?
Frank Goodnight
do not archive
On Jul 18, 2009, at 10:16 PM, Richard Girard wrote:
| Quote: | Frank, This is something I've thought about since I started flying the HKS. I think I'm going to get the 912 cable linkage and install it this winter. It works as an aircraft should and sends the engine to full power if the throttle cable breaks.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 6:46 AM, frank.goodnight <frank.goodnight(at)att.net (frank.goodnight(at)att.net)> wrote:
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:33 am Post subject: Re: throttle cable greensky |
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I like the fail - open throttle setup that the 912 uses, is there any easy way to do the same thing on a Rotax 503 ???
Mike
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"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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Thom Riddle
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:46 am Post subject: Re: throttle cable greensky |
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Mike,
The Bing 54 carbs have springs in the cup that apply pressure toward the closed throttle position. These springs are internal to the carb. The only way I can imagine making this carb go to full open when the cable breaks is to have a stronger external spring arrangement of some sort. If you could rig this sort of thing then the throttle cable would have to push (toward closed position) rather than pull toward open position. A pushing throttle cable should be (as I said before) a solid wire type rather than the flexible wire rope type for pulling.
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_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous |
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frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:43 am Post subject: throttle cable greensky |
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Hi Thom,
Rotax has all the parts to make the carb so the engine will go to full
power if the pull cable breaks . they cost about $250 this will be the
way I'll go if all else fails . I will take my carb off and get it in
the shop so I can
play with it and see what I can figure out. I can't think of any
reason not to use a solid wire type if that turns out to be the best
way to go.
I'm sending this info to everyone that I know that flys a HKS.
Frank Goodnight
Firestar2
HKS
Brownsville TX
On Jul 21, 2009, at 11:46 AM, Thom Riddle wrote:
| Quote: |
Mike,
The Bing 54 carbs have springs in the cup that apply pressure toward
the closed throttle position. These springs are internal to the
carb. The only way I can imagine making this carb go to full open
when the cable breaks is to have a stronger external spring
arrangement of some sort. If you could rig this sort of thing then
the throttle cable would have to push (toward closed position)
rather than pull toward open position. A pushing throttle cable
should be (as I said before) a solid wire type rather than the
flexible wire rope type for pulling.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
http://riddletr.googlepages.com/sportpilot-cfi
http://riddletr.googlepages.com/a%26pmechanix
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from
a simple system that works.
- John Gaule
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 54130#254130
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Thom Riddle
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:53 am Post subject: Re: throttle cable greensky |
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Frank,
That is news to me, but I learn something everyday, so that is good thing. Can you point us to the kit that does this reversal, hopefully with diagrams or photos of what it all looks like?
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Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous |
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lucien
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:23 am Post subject: Re: throttle cable greensky |
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| JetPilot wrote: | I like the fail - open throttle setup that the 912 uses, is there any easy way to do the same thing on a Rotax 503 ???
Mike |
I'd like this less on the 2-strokes than I already dislike it on the 912  . A likely failure if the cable isn't made right is at the ferrule on the end where it fits into the stop in the slide. If the ferrule comes off, there's a good change it'll pop into the engine through the intake. You'd be looking at the ol' "sudden stoppage" there anyway.......
A good normally-closed installation I've seen on one of the local trikes involves threading the cable housing vertically through the hole in the carb housing right above the area of the throttle arm. This hole is threaded, presumeably specifically for this purpose. The normal throttle arm is replaced with a different one with the hole on the other side (I suppose you could reuse the one that's on there stock, but I don't see a good way to attach the spring without mods and the hole is bizarrely too big to put a swivel in). Then a cable swivel is attached through the hole in the replacement arm and the spring attaches onto the arm underneath.
As I've said, if it weren't major surgery on my plane involving a complete overhaul of the whole throttle system, I'd convert mine over in 2 seconds without a second thought.....
LS
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LS
Titan II SS |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:54 am Post subject: throttle cable greensky |
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| Quote: | That is news to me, but I learn something everyday, so that is good thing.
Can you point us to the kit that does this reversal, hopefully with
diagrams or photos of what it all looks like?
--------
Thom Riddle
|
Thom:
If I remember correctly, RANS has shipped their 912 engine with "pull open"
throttle system. Seems they flip flop the throttle lever, and... cable and
spring positions. Also where the cable housing mounts. May be a little
more to it than that, but that is the way I remember it.
However, I have always been a fan of "spring loaded to wide open" in case of
cable failure. I once broke a throttle lever on short final into my
confined grass strip at night (pitch black). The spring loaded to wide open
throttle assisted me in rotating what was left of the throttle control (the
flat plate) for enough power to nurse the mkIII out of the black hole and
back to 08A for a safe dead stick landing with runway lights.
john h
mkIII
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:56 am Post subject: throttle cable greensky |
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Thom,
All the info I have came from the post by Richard Girard of july 20 .
It calls out the part numbers and nomenclature.
He is going to try and get more info from bing. I'm sure this is of
interest to anyone who flys a HKS.
I talked to Frank Porter today ,Frank is the engine importer. He is
going to get in touch with the factory and see if they will make the
change there. It won't help those of
us that already have an engine but it would help people in the future.
ps Richard will let us know what he finds out. If I can find a easy
(cheap) way I'll post it.
Frank Goodnight
On Jul 21, 2009, at 12:53 PM, Thom Riddle wrote:
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Thom Riddle
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:12 am Post subject: Re: throttle cable greensky |
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John,
I've seen some 912 installations with the pull-open-with-cable and spring close, and that is pretty simple to do but I agree with you that the full open in fail mode is preferable, like most 912 installations. What I would not like is for one of the two cables to break on the carb side of the splitter. This would be 1/2 engine full throttle and the other 1/2 not, unless the pilot gave it full throttle too. Zenith uses a single throttle cable to operate a rigid lever are that moves both carb throttle arms simultaneously. As long as the engine does not move much under torque loads, this is a good design, in my opinion. It makes mechanical carb synching simple too.
If I remember correctly, the question was about a 503 with Bing 54 carbs.... i.e. how do you rig them to spring open when a cable breaks? Someone said that Rotax makes a rig for doing just that. I'd like to see it and how it works.
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_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
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