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Aux fuel tanks
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rngurley

Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 18
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:12 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

It has been a few years now that some of you have been flying.  Has anyone installed or wish they have installed aux fuel tanks.  I am currently planning the items to be installed my wings and was wondering what the consensus was.  

   

Thank you in advance.  

   

Dick Gurley  

       [quote][b]

Ron.McGann(at)thalesgroup
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:14 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

Hi Dick,



I flew from Adelaide South Australia to Sydney last weekend (~800nm).

Refuelled at 650nm mark to ensure I had required reserves for alternates

(weather was not favourable in Sydney), but could easily have made the

distance and maintained fixed reserves.  YMMV, but my bladder would not

have held for the full 5 hrs flight time and the fuel stop was a relief.



Just one data point, but effectively leaned this plane can fly for quite

a while (and cover a serious distance) on standard tanks.

Cheers,

Ron

VH-XRM

Flying in Oz



--

dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 454
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:22 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

I installed the Safeair1 extended range tanks. I now have about 140 hours on the airplane and am very happy with them. They give the airplane at least 7 hours of fuel if you are running LOP. Very nice kit, well built and good instructions.



David Maib

40559



 



 



On Jul 21, 2009, at 7:06 PM, Richard Gurley wrote:

It has been a few years now that some of you have been flying.  Has anyone installed or wish they have installed aux fuel tanks.  I am currently planning the items to be installed my wings and was wondering what the consensus was.



 Thank you in advance.



 Dick Gurley



 	  Quote: 	
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blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://forums.matronics.com

style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

Albert Gardner

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 455
Location: Yuma, AZ

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:55 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

I plumbed my aircraft to make it easy to add tip tanks later on but have lost interest. Over the last 160 hours my RV-10 has averaged 10.6 gph. That’s over 5 hours of flying and I normally plan 3-3.5 hr legs. This includes some long flights as well as short local legs. Cross country flights are at 11.5 and 12.5 at 2300 rpm. Local flights usually at 19 or 21 sq. to keep up with the group. Engine is I0-540 10:1, 1 mag, 1 Lightspeed with Aero-Composits 3 blade. When I run into cheap gas I always wish I could haul some home but I no longer feel I need more capacity.   

Albert Gardner  

N991RV  

Yuma, AZ  

   

--

_________________
RV-9A N872RV
RV-10 N991RV

lbgjb10

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 67

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Aux fuel tanks

have 15 gal aux tanks built into wings (basically splitting a regular tank) and with transfer pumps, have 90 gal.  having ability to have extra fuel, or to tanker cheaper fuel is very nice.  If you run 75% power and run ROP you will wish you had more fuel sometime.  larry b.

_________________
Larry and Gayle N104LG

lbgjb10

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 67

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Aux fuel tanks

have 15 gal aux tanks built into wings (basically splitting a regular tank) and with transfer pumps, have 90 gal.  having ability to have extra fuel, or to tanker cheaper fuel is very nice.  If you run 75% power and run ROP you will wish you had more fuel sometime.  larry b.

_________________
Larry and Gayle N104LG

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:12 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

While traveling to TX in June I met an RV10 builder at Bulverde

airpark/airport (1T8) who was building a wet wing with 120 gal total. If

anyone is interested I am sure that the FBO there knows of the build. 



--

AirMike

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:02 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

No disrespect intended, but didn't Vans issue some kind of admonition warning people NOT to install aux tanks in the wings as the engineering had not accounted for the extra loading????????



I am wondering why nobody has installed a tank in the baggage area. It could easily hold 20 gallons. The floor is rated for the weight. It could feed by gravity to the wings with the simple turn of a petcock fitting tee'd into the supply line at the wing root. A baggage tank would be relatively safe, could vent outside and would avoid the overloaded wing issue.

_________________
See you OSH '18
Q/B - sold.

vhicy(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:50 am Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

Ron what power settings do you use and what height were you flying. Just 

want to compare to miine.



Chris ICY

---

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:39 am Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

The baggage area would seem to be the easiest retrofit. I haven't got an

aerospace engineering opinion of the wing aux tanks but it would seem that

the wing tanks extended would not affect bending moment on the spar nor CG.

A baggage area tank would probably require a battery on the firewall to be

comfortable with CG and CG movement with fuel burn. 



--

dan.masys(at)Vanderbilt.E
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:35 am Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

 	  Quote: 	
		   Time: 04:12:57 PM PST US

 From: "Richard Gurley" <rngurley(at)att.net>

 Subject: Aux fuel tanks

 

 It has been a few years now that some of you have been flying.  Has

anyone
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   installed or wish they have installed aux fuel tanks.  I am currently

 planning the items to be installed my wings and was wondering what the

 consensus was.

 

 Thank you in advance.

 

 Dick Gurley


	


I added the SafeAir1 tanks to my -10 after flying about 18 months and

although it was a mess to go back in and retrofit the plane (and I

dreaded taking the cutoff wheel to make an access door in those

beautiful painted wingtips) it was easily the best modification I have

made to the -10 and I wish I had just built it that way to begin with.



Having that extra 15 gals (read 1 hour of IFR reserve) helps a lot on my

most common route, which is between Washington DC and Nashville TN --

about 550 nm southwest bound against prevailing winds.  It was often

dicey to plan a nonstop IFR flight that direction if the destination

weather was not good, and now there is always lots of fuel for loitering

and alternates.



I also use the extra fuel to tanker fuel to locations where it is

expensive to buy even if not needed for range.  In those cases, I

usually pump the tips into the mains just before landing, making it a

smaller fuel bill when telling the line guy to top off the mains for the

return.



Bottom line: great addition to the flexibility of configuration, since

the tanks only weigh 15 lbs empty and sit right on the CG line so they

don't change the basic capability and loading configuration of the

plane, while adding range, safety and cost avoidance options.



But do put them in during the original build if you can, rather than

retrofitting.  Installation not that much fun later on.



-Dan Masys



RV-7A sold

RV-10 flying 

RV-12 in progress...

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:42 am Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

Another no cost/low cost alternative is running LOP. I have had multiple

trips of 550-600 NM over the last  two months. These include FFZ-CNW,

CNW-FFZ, FFZ-MEV, RTS-FFZ each trip left 20-25 gallons in the tanks. Flying

at 10-13000 at 50-55 power, I burned 8.5-9.0 gph. This is about 6:40 to dry

tanks. KTAS was approximately 150. With 5 hours enroute and possible 750nm,

this allows 1:40 at the destination. These were all IFR plans in mostly VMC.

--

vhicy(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:39 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

Dick we have just come back from a 42 hour trip in  outback Australia. Most of the time we were fine with fuel but as another has  pointed out fuel in some areas can be extremely expensive. An extra hour range  would be great here. The option of filling further on would be  great.

 I have spoken to an engineer at Vans regarding  making the the outer bay of wing also fuel and his response was like other RV's  it actually strengthens the wing however other areas have to be considered like  Max weight. He would not put anything on paper.

 An extra hour would be good but I don't know about  an extra 60 gallons unless you few at gross weight or under but you know what  people would do!

 With two 10's with gear leg collapses We do not  want to fly over gross.

 So Yes I would add an extra 1 hour of fuel if I  were to build again for out back flying.

  

 Chris

 [quote]   ---

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:34 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

If you must have extra fuel and you are SB wings, then the  obvious solution is to enlarge the main tanks by moving the outboard  bulkhead out a bay or two. The  CG won't shift and the wing will place less  bending moment on the spar and center carry through. Even certified aircraft can  be successfully flown and landed 10% over gross given the FAAs own rules for  Alaska operations. My understanding is that Alaska operations will almost always  have lower than standard temperatures and therefore more power available to lift  the load. The 10 is not power limited. My 10 lifted off KPRC at 5000 MSL (at) 80F  in 1500 ft ground roll at weight of 2750. Distance was calculated by the tower  staff.

   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris and  Susie

Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 2:29 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)    

Subject: Re: Aux fuel  tanks

 Dick we have just come back from a 42 hour trip in  outback Australia. Most of the time we were fine with fuel but as another has  pointed out fuel in some areas can be extremely expensive. An extra hour range  would be great here. The option of filling further on would be  great.

 I have spoken to an engineer at Vans regarding  making the the outer bay of wing also fuel and his response was like other RV's  it actually strengthens the wing however other areas have to be considered like  Max weight. He would not put anything on paper.

 An extra hour would be good but I don't know about  an extra 60 gallons unless you few at gross weight or under but you know what  people would do!

 With two 10's with gear leg collapses We do not  want to fly over gross.

 So Yes I would add an extra 1 hour of fuel if I  were to build again for out back flying.

 Chris

 [quote]   ---

Ron.McGann(at)thalesgroup
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:49 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

Hi Chris,



YPPF-YLOX-YROB-YBRN-YHAY-YTEM-YWBN at 5500'.



Mostly at 2400 22.9" - gave ~152KTAS if I recall.  50F LOP => 45lph



Did not concentrate too much on speeds during the flight, more

interested in finding a range/speed sweet spot for the altitude - still

hunting, but happy with what I got.



Cheers,

Ron

VH-XRM, flying in Oz



Do not archive

--

vhicy(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:03 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

Thanks Ron I emailed you direct and email just bounces



Chris

---

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:12 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

The Alaskan gross wt rule is NOT available to anyone, anytime. It

requires FSDO approval, generally for commercial freight, fuel and

fire fighting operations. It also has consequences. A Beech 1900, IIRC

crashed in Homer, a little over gross, with a load of ice picked up on

approach.

It is one thing to use for tankering fuel, like trans-oceanic flight

where there is no intent to land overgross, and quite another to both

takeoff and land overgross. One also does not know how much an

acceptable flight envelope exists above the published forward and aft

limits, how much narrower the range might be. Yes, you can experiment

with your experimental, declare a higher gross than Van's recommends

and play test pilot. Unfortunately, one -10 has already been lost,

along with the builder, by making hasty changes to what was already a

non-standard variant. We really need to minimize risks, lest our

favorite aircraft become uninsurable.



On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 3:29 PM, David McNeill<dlm46007(at)cox.net> wrote:

[quote] If you must have extra fuel and you are SB wings, then the obvious solution

 is to enlarge the main tanks by moving the outboard bulkhead out a bay or

 two. The  CG won't shift and the wing will place less bending moment on the

 spar and center carry through. Even certified aircraft can be successfully

 flown and landed 10% over gross given the FAAs own rules for Alaska

 operations. My understanding is that Alaska operations will almost always

 have lower than standard temperatures and therefore more power available to

 lift the load. The 10 is not power limited. My 10 lifted off KPRC at 5000

 MSL (at) 80F in 1500 ft ground roll at weight of 2750. Distance was calculated

 by the tower staff.

 ________________________________

 From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com

 [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris and Susie

 Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 2:29 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Aux fuel tanks



 Dick we have just come back from a 42 hour trip in outback Australia. Most

 of the time we were fine with fuel but as another has pointed out fuel in

 some areas can be extremely expensive. An extra hour range would be great

 here. The option of filling further on would be great.

 I have spoken to an engineer at Vans regarding making the the outer bay of

 wing also fuel and his response was like other RV's it actually strengthens

 the wing however other areas have to be considered like Max weight. He would

 not put anything on paper.

 An extra hour would be good but I don't know about an extra 60 gallons

 unless you few at gross weight or under but you know what people would do!

 With two 10's with gear leg collapses We do not want to fly over gross.

 So Yes I would add an extra 1 hour of fuel if I were to build again for out

 back flying.



 Chris



 ---

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

rebrunk42(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

Kcvb kelp kffz 10500' 21"  2350  20 lop.  10 gph 750 nm

Kffz kfst kcvb.  9500'.  21" 2350.  20 lop. 10 gph.  1350 egt 370 cht.  

200.deg. Oil temp. Io540 1lite speed 1 mag. Hope that helps. Robert  

Brunkenhoefer  rv10 145 hrs



Sent from my iPhone



Robert E. Brunkenhoefer

Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C.

520 Lawrence St.

Corpus Christi, Texas 78401

Phone: 361-888-8808

Facsimile: 361-888-6753

robert(at)brunklaw.com



On Jul 22, 2009, at 5:58 PM, "Chris and Susie" <vhicy(at)bigpond.com>  

wrote:



[quote] 



 Thanks Ron I emailed you direct and email just bounces



 Chris

 ---

rebrunk42(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: Aux fuel tanks

148 kts true 126 kts indicated as



Sent from my iPhone



Robert E. Brunkenhoefer

Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C.

520 Lawrence St.

Corpus Christi, Texas 78401

Phone: 361-888-8808

Facsimile: 361-888-6753

robert(at)brunklaw.com



On Jul 22, 2009, at 5:58 PM, "Chris and Susie" <vhicy(at)bigpond.com>  

wrote:



[quote] 



 Thanks Ron I emailed you direct and email just bounces



 Chris

 ---

doctornigel

Joined: 18 Feb 2009
Posts: 11
Location: Indian Harbour Beach, FL

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: Aux fuel tanks

I'm not sure how the aux tanks can be on the CG line as that changes with airplane loading, they could be on the CG line for only one configuration.  If they are within the forward and aft limits of CG, then they will have less of an effect on CG as far as knocking it out of range.  Gross weight of an airplane is calculated to keep the stall speed below a certain speed, to not stress the landing gear during landing, for the g force loading limits, and take-off landing speeds.   Most planes can fly WAY over gross as long as CG is within range and as long as you realize stall speeds will be increased, acceptable g loading decreased, take-off and landing distances will be increased, speeds will decrease, and you may damage the landing gear, etc.  For me I won't need more than 60 gallons for 95% of my flights.  For the other 5% I am going to fabricate a removable 20 gallon tank that I can easily secure in the space of one of my rear seats.  I plan on a 60/40 rear seat with the 60 side removable and the tank will secure on the seat attachment points.   The 120 lbs of fuel will be where one small passenger would be so no CG concerns.  Should be easily, temporarily plumbed into the fuel system, it may not even need a aux fuel pump.

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