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EV200

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al38kit

Joined: 13 Jul 2009
Posts: 21

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:31 am Post subject: EV200

It appears the EV200 is a good master relay...anyone know why it should not be used as a starter relay...also...?



Al

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:31 pm Post subject: EV200

At 11:31 AM 7/22/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



It appears the EV200 is a good master relay...anyone know why it 

should not be used as a starter relay...also...?


	


   To what advantage? This is a contactor that operates for

   a few seconds per flight cycle. The el-cheeso parts

   have performed well and demonstrated good value. The

   EV200 may function well too . . . but what's the

   expected return on investment for the more expensive

   purchase?

        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

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al38kit

Joined: 13 Jul 2009
Posts: 21

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: EV200

If I could get the parts cheap enough, the benefit for me, with two planes, would be interchangeability...or just having one spare on the shelf.



Thanks for the initial lead, it looks like a great relay, but like you say, can be pricey...I think I can get them at a little over $40.



Cheers,



Al

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retasker(at)optonline.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:10 pm Post subject: EV200

Uuuh...  Because a much cheaper and perfectly adequate solution is 

available - the normal el-cheapo starter relay.



The only reason I can see for ever using the EV200 is that it uses less 

current when it is energized which might be justifiable for the master 

relay.  But for the starter relay - how long would it be on when 

starting - 2-5 seconds?



Save the money and spend it on gas...



My $0.02



Dick Tasker



al38kit wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 It appears the EV200 is a good master relay...anyone know why it should not be used as a starter relay...also...?



 Al

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Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: Contactors

(some repost here...) I have railed against these Type-70 contactors for years. But they are almost obsolete. Most electronics distributors have dropped them from their lines. 



Problems--



1) Low Temperature rating. Only 122F max. You could land at Furnace Creek in Death Valley in May and take off in October. Maybe. This is primarily due to the Nylon innards. This is a drop-dead reason to avoid the part.



2) Not sealed. Not dust proof, or fuel proof. 



3) Low interrupt capacity. 



4) High hold current---16 ohm coil. Almost one amp.



5) Low hold force. The specifications call for specific orientation. 2G rating?



6) Wildly wrong for B&C to use coil suppression diodes on these. This causes short lifetimes on the B&C parts. 



7) Not designed to open against voltages above 36 volts. (So forget the B-lead applications)



See: www.stancor.com



There are better ways to go. Omron's line of automotive contactors (CHEAP) and Kilovac's EV200 series, Blue Sea 9012, Gigavac's GX-11. Expensive but preferred.



Can you use them? Sure. Should you use them?....not on my bird, Bubela.



Better yet, avoid all contactors and use manual switches if you can. 



"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."   

          ---Aldous Huxley

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_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:31 am Post subject: EV200

At 04:03 PM 7/23/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



(some repost here...) I have railed against these Type-70 contactors 

for years. But they are almost obsolete. Most electronics 

distributors have dropped them from their lines.


	


   Really? Who used to carry them that doesn't any

   more. My preferred sources are still offering

   them. I think the Cole-Hersey guys are still

   cranking out their equivalent parts in volume.

   I think these are the devices that Van's offers.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Problems--



1) Low Temperature rating. Only 122F max. You could land at Furnace 

Creek in Death Valley in May and take off in October. Maybe. This is 

primarily due to the Nylon innards. This is a drop-dead reason to 

avoid the part.


	


   And hundreds of thousands of el-cheeso contactors

   have been used in airplanes for decades and for

   some reason, they never seem to have bubbled up

   high enough on the "problems list" to have been

   replaced. The max temperature ratings for cited

   for the purpose of meeting specified design goals

   over a products service lifetime. The 122F max

   does not mean that the critter goes into destructive

   meltdown at 123, 153 or even 200F.



   We've had numerous discussions on the List concerning

   ratings vs. limits vs. service life, on a host

   of products. The physics of the matter haven't

   changed. That 122F figure is not a drop-dead

   reason for doing anything. It's a reason to consider

   the product's suitability to task using a combination

   of understanding what the ratings mean -AND-

   demonstrated field history.

 	  Quote: 	
		  2) Not sealed. Not dust proof, or fuel proof.


	


   No, not hermetically sealed. But those cans

   are steel and the caps are swaged on with

   hydraulics or some form of rolling press. I've

   opened dozens (not easy to do) for various reasons

   and have yet to discover a spec of dust. And how many

   contactors are expected function as advertised

   while sloshed with fuel?  The venerable Cutler-

   Hammer 6041 series contactors have been around

   since the late 30's and are less "sealed"

   or "fuel proof" than the el-cheeso RPM/W-H/Stancor

   devices. Yet they are still in current production on

   many of the Hawker-Beech products. What part would

   you recommend that HBC consider for upgrading their

   choice of contactors? I'd be pleased to forward

   your recommendations to their VP of Engineering.



 	  Quote: 	
		  3) Low interrupt capacity.


	


   And what current levels do you propose to interrupt?

   A battery contactor opens just before shutdown

   of the airplane when it's parked. How much current

   does the contactor carry under these conditions?

   If the service life at full rated current is in

   the tens of thousands of operations, how much will

   it go up if you only open it during shutdown

   of the airplane? 10 Amps? Gee, that's a killer.

 	  Quote: 	
		  4) High hold current---16 ohm coil. Almost one amp.


	


   Yes . . . it's "higher" than the EV200, but not

   nearly one amp. See:



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Battery_Contactor_Temps_2.jpg



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Battery_Contactor_Temps_1.jpg

 	  Quote: 	
		  5) Low hold force. The specifications call for specific orientation. 

2G rating?


	


    I've not seen that. Please cite the page and paragraph

    where this is offered. I've done linear g-loading tests

    on these contactors and was unable to open them at the

    limits of my centrifuge . . . 10+ G

 	  Quote: 	
		  6) Wildly wrong for B&C to use coil suppression diodes on these. 

This causes short lifetimes on the B&C parts.


	


    Absolute BS. I've demonstrated many times that the

    assessment that you and others have offered on the

    diode suppression issue is without foundation in the

    simple ideas and physics behind the design and

    incorporation of these devices. You guys read specs,

    and then demonstrate your lack of understanding by

    posting a "doom-n-gloom of the day" article that

    does NOT demonstrate or explain where I'm wrong.



 	  Quote: 	
		  7) Not designed to open against voltages above 36 volts. (So forget 

the B-lead applications)


	


    For normal operations, the b-lead contactor is not

    subjected to more than 36 volts. When operated as

    recommended, the service life on an el-cheeso

    contactor in the b-lead is not at risk. However,

    during an OV runaway, you damn betcha the contactor

    is expected to open at more than 36 volts . . . and

    why should we care? If the OV protection system

    does it's job . . . and just assuming that a couple

    of high-energy opening events for the contactor

    is going to trash it . . . do I care?

 	  Quote: 	
		  See: www.stancor.com



There are better ways to go. Omron's line of automotive contactors (CHEAP)


	


   Which OMRON part would you recommend?



 	  Quote: 	
		    and Kilovac's EV200 series, Blue Sea 9012, Gigavac's GX-11. 

 Expensive but preferred.



Can you use them? Sure. Should you use them?....not on my bird, Bubela.


	


   Your choice are your own and I wouldn't dream of

   attempting to dissuade you from exercising the

   right to make them and enjoy the consequences

   therefrom. But your participation here on the

   List needs to offer more than your opinions

   based on poor interpretation of spec sheets,

   understanding of design goals and knowledge of

   demonstrated recipes for success.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Better yet, avoid all contactors and use manual switches if you can.



"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."


	


   ABSOLUTELY!  . . . so why do you continue to ignore

   that which I have offered on this topic for years?

   Make my day, show me where I'm wrong.



   Bob . . .

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